Can anyone educate me how Lo rune can be more expensive than Sur?

I totally get that Lo can be used in more frequently used runewords like Fortitude, and I saw many posts that Lo rune's drop rate is lower than Sur? (not sure if this is true)

But if you just think about how 2x Sur can be Ber, which seems to be worth more than 2x Lo or even higher according to this site's price checking tool, it becomes really hard to understand why Lo is worth more than Sur. Do the math: 2 Sur= Ber=2 Lo this means 1 Sur should be 1 Lo. Not lower than that.

If this is the case, why do people sell Sur in the first place, rather than just getting another Sur, cubing it to Ber and selling Ber at a much better price? Can anyone provide any Insight?

High Rune pricing doesnt go exactly in order of rarity or level. The Runewords they create are #1. Jah and Ber are extremely valuable because they can make Enigma and Infinity, the 2 most commonly used and OP runewords in the game along with Grief and Fortitude, which are made with a Lo

Sur sucks because no great runewords need it. Its ONLY value is that its "half of a Ber". So only really valuable to someone who already has a Sur (or is willing to wait) to transmute to Ber.

Same situation with Gul, where its mostly useless besides its "half of a Vex".

After Gul, the "2x rune = next rune" value no longer applies. For Vex and up, each rune has a value which in no way correlates to the cube recipes anymore (other than arguably "2 Cham = Zod"), only rariry, supply, and demand. For all intents and purposes you can assume those recipes don't exist unless you can't find a trade and are really desperate

I think the reason why tho is that it’s not exactly easy to just get two Sur. Yes you can cube two Sur for a Ber and sell for two Lo, but getting the second Sur can take a long long time, where Lo is ready to go being a valuable part of a rune word right away, so it has more utility, henceforth more value.

or people just don't know to cube 2 Sur into a Ber like me . maybe you should educate them

FREE_LOOP wrote: 4 years ago

or people just don't know to cube 2 Sur into a Ber like me .

You mean like everyone? lol.

BillyMaysed wrote: 4 years ago

FREE_LOOP wrote: 4 years ago

or people just don't know to cube 2 Sur into a Ber like me .

You mean like everyone? lol.

I mean like a percent that is significant enough to change the market price

FREE_LOOP wrote: 4 years ago

or people just don't know to cube 2 Sur into a Ber like me . maybe you should educate them

Use this site (or search google) for cube / rune recipies...
Sur + Sur + Flawless Amethyst = Ber
https://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Rune_list

BillyMaysed wrote: 4 years ago

High Rune pricing doesnt go exactly in order of rarity or level. The Runewords they create are #1. Jah and Ber are extremely valuable because they can make Enigma and Infinity, the 2 most commonly used and OP runewords in the game along with Grief and Fortitude, which are made with a Lo

Sur sucks because no great runewords need it. Its ONLY value is that its "half of a Ber". So only really valuable to someone who already has a Sur (or is willing to wait) to transmute to Ber.

Same situation with Gul, where its mostly useless besides its "half of a Vex".

To put this into another perspective: Supply and demand
All mercenary builds need Fortitude.
Grief is the best melee weapon (Barb/Smiter).
Need 2 Sur to make Ber, which is high value but expensive and people selling Sur only want other high runes which limits customer base.

PnutBudda wrote: 4 years ago

FREE_LOOP wrote: 4 years ago

or people just don't know to cube 2 Sur into a Ber like me . maybe you should educate them

Use this site (or search google) for cube / rune recipies...
Sur + Sur + Flawless Amethyst = Ber
https://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Rune_list

before this thread I never thought cubing could be an option. I always thought selling runes individually on market is always better value than cubing them.

More often that not 2 runes of one kind is half the value of the next rune this goes for Pul, Um, Mal Gul, Vex, Ohm, Sur and Cham. All these runes er worth half of the rune one step higher on the rune ladder, However some runes defies these rules mostly due to the rune being more useful than the rune one step qbove them, this goes for Ist, Lo, Ber all more valuable than half the rune 1 step above them on rune ladder, all because they are more useful than the one above them, for Ber and Lo the fact that they are more rare than the one qbove them also factors in but is less important hence their value twnds to be equal or very nearly equal to the one above them.

Lo is generally not more valuable than Sur they are equal in price, later in game Sur might very well surpass Lo in value because Jah and Ber tends to increase in value in time compared to all other runes. Ber and Jah er close but Ber is a bit more expensive than Jah atm. This might as well change with time since both Sur and Ber drops factor in when counting the amount og Ber on the market, Jah is only factored by Jah drops. Most other runes will always have the value they have now due to the rune-ranks.

Hope this helps a bit in the end there are a few factors that factor in when determining value but it all comes down to rune-rank, supply and demand. Rarity affects supply and usefulness affects demand, the rank of the rune is a constant which keeps the runes value in correlation to one another in most cases

You kind of answered your own question.

A Sur is only valuable if you have 2 of them to cube to Ber. A Lo is immediately useful in Grief which is arguably the best melee weapon in the game, and Fortitude which is again arguably one of the best melee armors in the game.

The games all about supply and demand, I'd say based on market and my personal experience Lo and Sur drop rates are close enough to each other that the drop rate is negligible when determining their worth.

kevdrogo wrote: 4 years ago

You kind of answered your own question.

A Sur is only valuable if you have 2 of them to cube to Ber. A Lo is immediately useful in Grief which is arguably the best melee weapon in the game, and Fortitude which is again arguably one of the best melee armors in the game.

The games all about supply and demand, I'd say based on market and my personal experience Lo and Sur drop rates are close enough to each other that the drop rate is negligible when determining their worth.

so the problem is people doesn't want Ber that bad enough now, which is strange. In my opinion Grief and Fortitude are great for pysical damage character, but the main classes people are using to MF are mostly elemental damage or magical damage these days. So I think runewords like Infinity and Enigma should be much more desired, even though it takes 2 Sur rune to cube into one Ber rune. I don't know what people are thinking but anyway for me a Sur rune is surely more value than Lo rune, as I don't run any physical damage character.

FREE_LOOP wrote: 4 years ago

kevdrogo wrote: 4 years ago

You kind of answered your own question.

A Sur is only valuable if you have 2 of them to cube to Ber. A Lo is immediately useful in Grief which is arguably the best melee weapon in the game, and Fortitude which is again arguably one of the best melee armors in the game.

The games all about supply and demand, I'd say based on market and my personal experience Lo and Sur drop rates are close enough to each other that the drop rate is negligible when determining their worth.

so the problem is people doesn't want Ber that bad enough now, which is strange. In my opinion Grief and Fortitude are great for pysical damage character, but the main classes people are using to MF are mostly elemental damage or magical damage these days. So I think runewords like Infinity and Enigma should be much more desired, even though it takes 2 Sur rune to cube into one Ber rune. I don't know what people are thinking but anyway for me a Sur rune is surely more value than Lo rune, as I don't run any physical damage character.

It's not so much that people don't want Ber, everyone does, it's just not so easy to obtain.

For example -
I'm a newish player and I've leveled a barb to 85 but have mediocre gear. I drop a Lo rune. I can now either make a Grief or Fortitude which is a huge immediate upgrade.

Ex 2 -
I drop a Sur rune. I have no idea when I will find another Sur if ever. So if I sit on this Sur for 2 weeks farming and hoping to find items to trade up to a Sur or just a another Sur altogether and find nothing then I haven't really made much progress.

Of course in the long term it would still make more sense if you needed a Ber (which most people do) but instant gratification from the Lo and a more reasonable upgrade path make it more desirable right now in my opinion.

Frankly, debating worth as though some intrinsic value could be arrived at is futile and circular in a market governed by subjective perceptions with barter as its currency, as Teebling pointed out.

First, there is no accepted currency, this has evolved many times over the years. Whatever seemed to have reliable, portable value became IT for a while until fashions shifted.

Second, perception. If I think Ber is more valuable than another item and testify to that fact through a trade, then it becomes so. Plain and simple. The reason being that having made such a trade I am a market maker. If enough people share my perception then that will end up setting the prevailing price.

So, arguing that something should be cheaper or another thing more expensive goes nowhere. Things get cheaper when supply increases or demand decreases. In this game, if the majority of players think that item X is BIS under certain circumstances then the price will reflect that.

They could be wrong, though, couldn't they? They might be reacting to some new guide or build which achieves popularity. Or ... simply put, a new build emerges which seems fun enough to make waves in the community.

That's what it boils down to. Many items move slowly, others sell like hotcakes. Oftentimes, this is much less related to the items true utility (even that is silly and vague, as one person's BIS is another's vendor trash), than the real driver of value in D2.

Popularity.

hear hear

also bear in mind that with 1 Ber rune you can do jack
Ber requires another fat rune to make those big rws.
So even you finally got your Ber, you cannot do anything with it. But with 2 Lo you can have a very sold char already

uppertunic wrote: 4 years ago

I totally get that Lo can be used in more frequently used runewords like Fortitude, and I saw many posts that Lo rune's drop rate is lower than Sur? (not sure if this is true)

But if you just think about how 2x Sur can be Ber, which seems to be worth more than 2x Lo or even higher according to this site's price checking tool, it becomes really hard to understand why Lo is worth more than Sur. Do the math: 2 Sur= Ber=2 Lo this means 1 Sur should be 1 Lo. Not lower than that.

If this is the case, why do people sell Sur in the first place, rather than just getting another Sur, cubing it to Ber and selling Ber at a much better price? Can anyone provide any Insight?

you are totally right no doubt.
Then only reason people is saying that Lo is valuable than Sur is that they want to make money through selling Ber
Keep your Sur, don't trust those bastard. And Sur would be slightly higher than Lo in the futher since Ber needed but drop less, people will take 2 Sur for getting Ber

Man no love for Bramble and any of the Poison based builds huh?

Everyone talking about how Sur's are useless when I look forward to my first Bramble roll each season.