Patch 3.3

Schnorki wrote: 1 day ago

Bertram The Cursed wrote: 1 day ago

vued wrote: 2 days ago

Read this out aloud and you might understand why this change was necessary.

A change was necessary. If this ends up that nobody put more than 1 skillpoint into Bind Demon cause its not worth, than the changes are super bad.

It doesn't.
Bind Demon is still crazy good. Especially in a proper demon build.
I honestly don't get people complaining about that nerf/fix/whatever. It was absolutely overdue and really didn't go too far by any means. Then again, people always go "OMG BROKEN AND UNUSABLE NOW" whenever something gets nerfed, no matter how justified or small of a nerf it may have been so..mweh.

did the calulations, prior to the nerf at lvl 50 Bind Demon and lvl 50 Demonic Mastery a demon with its own lvl 12 fanatism aura did about 40.5k physical damage, after the nerf patch 3.3 that same bound demon does about 10.5k damage. I tested i maxed out my Demonic Mastery lvl 52 and had 1 point into Bind Demon with skill gear it was lvl 29 bound demon, my demon was urdar with lvl 12 fanatism and hes damage was 7.5k. At this point no other non-summoner spec is gonna put any points into Bind Demon. Do i think Bind Demon after the nerf is horrible no. I think its okay, at this point just let players have a option to have resummon bound demon, so if you or it dies you can resummon it for 32 mana and Cap the hp at 35k before Battle Orders. I see folks already complaining their demons are struggling with anything on tz-p4 and above. Basically you will struggle a bit unless your doing tz-p3 and below. Believe it or not demon summon warlocks are the least popular warlock builds, the items trades for cheap or given away alot of time. The reason for all this attention is because blizzard could not find a way to not make Bind Demon a 1 skill wonder meaning you only need 20 point in it to be effective because of the damage bug from last patch 3.2. It was basically a 70 percent damage nerf in patch 3.3.
I think the nerf was to much, a 50 percent damage nerf would have been more balanced along with making curse now cast 25 percent of the time instead of 5. Since the damage was nerfed bind demons do worse with engorges life steal factor because its based off of damage.

Bertram The Cursed wrote: 22 hours ago

starskyj wrote: 1 day ago

Schnorki wrote: 1 day ago

It doesn't.
Bind Demon is still crazy good. Especially in a proper demon build.
I honestly don't get people complaining about that nerf/fix/whatever. It was absolutely overdue and really didn't go too far by any means. Then again, people always go "OMG BROKEN AND UNUSABLE NOW" whenever something gets nerfed, no matter how justified or small of a nerf it may have been so..mweh.

did the calulations, prior to the nerf at lvl 50 Bind Demon and lvl 50 Demonic Mastery a demon with its own lvl 12 fanatism aura did about 40.5k physical damage, after the nerf patch 3.3 that same bound demon does about 10.5k damage. I tested i maxed out my Demonic Mastery lvl 52 and had 1 point into Bind Demon with skill gear it was lvl 29 bound demon, my demon was urdar with lvl 12 fanatism and hes damage was 7.5k. At this point no other non-summoner spec is gonna put any points into Bind Demon. Do i think Bind Demon after the nerf is horrible no. I think its okay, at this point just let players have a option to have resummon bound demon, so if you or it dies you can resummon it for 32 mana and Cap the hp at 35k before Battle Orders. I see folks already complaining their demons are struggling with anything on tz-p4 and above. Basically you will struggle a bit unless your doing tz-p3 and below. Believe it or not demon summon warlocks are the least popular warlock builds, the items trades for cheap or given away alot of time. The reason for all this attention is because blizzard could not find a way to not make Bind Demon a 1 skill wonder meaning you only need 20 point in it to be effective because of the damage bug from last patch 3.2. It was basically a 70 percent damage nerf in patch 3.3.
I think the nerf was to much, a 50 percent damage nerf would have been more balanced along with making curse now cast 25 percent of the time instead of 5. Since the damage was nerfed bind demons do worse with engorges life steal factor because its based off of damage.

The 1 Point Demon is totally fine or still overpowered. Im using a 1 Point cursed Pitlord which i ve bound with 21 Points. Maybe some bosses or heralds can touch him, but i didnt recognize any difference playing in P8 terrorzones. Even if im not wearing all skillpoints when starting the game, demon never is in real trouble. But he does not have to deal damage. He just has to stand there where i put him with deathmark and do his flamething.

With chains finally working at about 95% as intended, the all-immune rainbow megadevils from Uber Tristram have been working flawlessly for me now, even when hunting heralds.

Ran the ancients twice and the Ubers once last night and he took almost zero damage. The run I did a few weeks ago was dicey as hell and I had to call @kerph to come bail me out

I’m about to respec and redistribute those now wasted 19 points I have in bind to max out bolt, chains and Abyss so I have full synergy. I just need 20 soft in bind at the time of binding for him to gain an aura so I’ll just load up on demon skillers before I go get him.

I’m really enjoying this build now especially since the nerf has forced me to not have to go poke(de)mon hunting every time my designer Heph gets clapped by a gloam.

If you keep a spare set of keys, you’ll always have access to one of these super-immune sidekicks. I dig it

mikelessar wrote: 17 hours ago

Rhaegar86 wrote: 19 hours ago

Ran the ancients twice and the Ubers once last night and he took almost zero damage.

Did you not say in the other thread you needed 9 Full Rej potions?

I did. I was referring to my all-immune demon taking almost zero damage. I had to use 9 pots to keep the mana flowing for chains

Bertram The Cursed wrote: 22 hours ago

starskyj wrote: 1 day ago

Schnorki wrote: 1 day ago

It doesn't.
Bind Demon is still crazy good. Especially in a proper demon build.
I honestly don't get people complaining about that nerf/fix/whatever. It was absolutely overdue and really didn't go too far by any means. Then again, people always go "OMG BROKEN AND UNUSABLE NOW" whenever something gets nerfed, no matter how justified or small of a nerf it may have been so..mweh.

did the calulations, prior to the nerf at lvl 50 Bind Demon and lvl 50 Demonic Mastery a demon with its own lvl 12 fanatism aura did about 40.5k physical damage, after the nerf patch 3.3 that same bound demon does about 10.5k damage. I tested i maxed out my Demonic Mastery lvl 52 and had 1 point into Bind Demon with skill gear it was lvl 29 bound demon, my demon was urdar with lvl 12 fanatism and hes damage was 7.5k. At this point no other non-summoner spec is gonna put any points into Bind Demon. Do i think Bind Demon after the nerf is horrible no. I think its okay, at this point just let players have a option to have resummon bound demon, so if you or it dies you can resummon it for 32 mana and Cap the hp at 35k before Battle Orders. I see folks already complaining their demons are struggling with anything on tz-p4 and above. Basically you will struggle a bit unless your doing tz-p3 and below. Believe it or not demon summon warlocks are the least popular warlock builds, the items trades for cheap or given away alot of time. The reason for all this attention is because blizzard could not find a way to not make Bind Demon a 1 skill wonder meaning you only need 20 point in it to be effective because of the damage bug from last patch 3.2. It was basically a 70 percent damage nerf in patch 3.3.
I think the nerf was to much, a 50 percent damage nerf would have been more balanced along with making curse now cast 25 percent of the time instead of 5. Since the damage was nerfed bind demons do worse with engorges life steal factor because its based off of damage.

The 1 Point Demon is totally fine or still overpowered. Im using a 1 Point cursed Pitlord which i ve bound with 21 Points. Maybe some bosses or heralds can touch him, but i didnt recognize any difference playing in P8 terrorzones. Even if im not wearing all skillpoints when starting the game, demon never is in real trouble. But he does not have to deal damage. He just has to stand there where i put him with deathmark and do his flamething.

Your looking at the point of a player who is demon warlocks ummoner in your own words you said its op because it tanks well enough thou you it doesnt really have to deal damage. I wish they nerfed the hp of bound demons and allowed us to resummon them if we or they died with a option called resummon bound demon and it would cost like 30 mana but the hp would be caped at 35k. Or better yet drastically nerf the Hp of the current bound demons when they are bound, and they would only get hp increase if you put hard points into Bind Demon. This would prevent people like you who only see it as some mindless tank from saying its op or fine which effects game balance and choice of the devs. Other summoner builds like necro, and druid dont have to deal with Bone necros,psn necros, or elemental druids, or shape shift druid using talents from other trees and demanding changes or saying things are fine.

starskyj wrote: 8 hours ago

allowed us to resummon them if we or they died with a option called resummon bound demon and it would cost like 30 mana but the hp would be caped at 35k

Wouldn't this make them undead? And wouldn't this make warlock trespass into the necromancer's dominion? This does make me wonder about the lore - "actual" demons (I say "actual" because Corrupt Rogue are classified as demons but they were human once, they weren't created as demons) are supposedly immortal souls that will reform on death, and I'm guessing the bodies left behind in Sanctuary are just empty husks since the reformation process will begin immediately on death? Also, the bound demons are not technically summoned from the beginning (like defilers, goatmen and tainted), so if the warlock can just resummon them at will, why can't he just straight up summon whichever demon he wants to begin with? But I guess Blizzard could just make up a reason why it would work for a warlock to resurrect something and not let it be straight up necromancy.

starskyj wrote: 8 hours ago

Or better yet drastically nerf the Hp of the current bound demons when they are bound, and they would only get hp increase if you put hard points into Bind Demon.

This actually makes some sense. Bound demons could have a bit less hp with less skill point investment (and have about as much hp as they have now with more skill point investment). Maybe half as much at 1 hard point would be fair?

ShadowHeart wrote: 4 hours ago

starskyj wrote: 8 hours ago

allowed us to resummon them if we or they died with a option called resummon bound demon and it would cost like 30 mana but the hp would be caped at 35k

Wouldn't this make them undead? And wouldn't this make warlock trespass into the necromancer's dominion? This does make me wonder about the lore - "actual" demons (I say "actual" because Corrupt Rogue are classified as demons but they were human once, they weren't created as demons) are supposedly immortal souls that will reform on death, and I'm guessing the bodies left behind in Sanctuary are just empty husks since the reformation process will begin immediately on death? Also, the bound demons are not technically summoned from the beginning (like defilers, goatmen and tainted), so if the warlock can just resummon them at will, why can't he just straight up summon whichever demon he wants to begin with? But I guess Blizzard could just make up a reason why it would work for a warlock to resurrect something and not let it be straight up necromancy.

starskyj wrote: 8 hours ago

Or better yet drastically nerf the Hp of the current bound demons when they are bound, and they would only get hp increase if you put hard points into Bind Demon.

This actually makes some sense. Bound demons could have a bit less hp with less skill point investment (and have about as much hp as they have now with more skill point investment). Maybe half as much at 1 hard point would be fair?

as a lvl 99 summon warlock i think that would be good, lister with lvl 50 bound demon and 50 Blood Oath binded in tz p8 would have about 304k life and 505k life after Battle Orders of lvl 16. Believe it or not in patch 3.1 when the expansion came out that same lister would have about 490k hp before bo. Thats why the bound demons seemed like they were tank gods. They were nerfed a bit in patch 3.2 in terms of their health. And no it wouldnt make the demons undead, druids can resummon bears and their pets, necro can resummon golems. I rather if they just flat out made it you could resummon your bound demon but drastically nerfed the hp say in hell mode the bound demons have 2000 hp in hell, nightmare they would have 400, and in normal they would have 200 then have bloodoath, increase it by the flat percentage already in the skill, so if you had lvl 50 Blood Oath your demon would have 36000 hp before bo and after bo about 50k hp is enough not to distrub pvp because players do 100 percent of their damage to enemy player pets. Meaning players would have to make a choice either invest heavy in Blood Oath to increase your demons hp or have 1 point into Blood Oath and with plus skills from gear have a demon with about 11k life with a lvl 12 Blood Oath before bo.That means with plus 11 from gear and a bound demon from hell the demon would have 11k hp.


Wanna know something insane, with 1 point into Demonic Mastery and 1 point into Bind Demon, having them at lvl 19 from Battle Orders and just plus skill gear like Shako soj etc torch anni etc. If you binded a urdar in a tz p1 game that was cursed, you would have a demon with 4k physical damage with its own lvl 12 fanatism aura, and does 65 percent crushing blow on hit, 30k life 17200 attack rating, all res 75 except pison being 0, and 50 percent damage reduction. No other summoner skills in the game work like this. This would not work on summon necros or druids etc. at lvl 50 grizzly bear you would do 7200 damage and 9k life, 6700 attack rating in comparison to a lvl 19 grizzly bear doing 1k damage and 5375 attack rating. In comparison to a lvl 50 Demonic Mastery and 50 Bind Demon urdar doing 16k damage 26906 atatck rating if in tz p1 and 32300 attack rating in in tzp8.

starskyj wrote: 2 hours ago

ShadowHeart wrote: 4 hours ago

starskyj wrote: 8 hours ago

allowed us to resummon them if we or they died with a option called resummon bound demon and it would cost like 30 mana but the hp would be caped at 35k

Wouldn't this make them undead? And wouldn't this make warlock trespass into the necromancer's dominion? This does make me wonder about the lore - "actual" demons (I say "actual" because Corrupt Rogue are classified as demons but they were human once, they weren't created as demons) are supposedly immortal souls that will reform on death, and I'm guessing the bodies left behind in Sanctuary are just empty husks since the reformation process will begin immediately on death? Also, the bound demons are not technically summoned from the beginning (like defilers, goatmen and tainted), so if the warlock can just resummon them at will, why can't he just straight up summon whichever demon he wants to begin with? But I guess Blizzard could just make up a reason why it would work for a warlock to resurrect something and not let it be straight up necromancy.

starskyj wrote: 8 hours ago

Or better yet drastically nerf the Hp of the current bound demons when they are bound, and they would only get hp increase if you put hard points into Bind Demon.

This actually makes some sense. Bound demons could have a bit less hp with less skill point investment (and have about as much hp as they have now with more skill point investment). Maybe half as much at 1 hard point would be fair?

as a lvl 99 summon warlock i think that would be good, lister with lvl 50 bound demon and 50 Blood Oath binded in tz p8 would have about 304k life and 505k life after Battle Orders of lvl 16. Believe it or not in patch 3.1 when the expansion came out that same lister would have about 490k hp before bo. Thats why the bound demons seemed like they were tank gods. They were nerfed a bit in patch 3.2 in terms of their health. And no it wouldnt make the demons undead, druids can resummon bears and their pets, necro can resummon golems. I rather if they just flat out made it you could resummon your bound demon but drastically nerfed the hp say in hell mode the bound demons have 2000 hp in hell, nightmare they would have 300, and in normal they would have 200 then have bloodoath, increase it by the flat percentage already in the skill, so if you had lvl 50 Blood Oath your demon would have 36000 hp before bo and after bo about 50k hp is enough not to distrub pvp because players do 100 percent of their damage to enemy player pets. Meaning players would have to make a choice either invest heavy in Blood Oath to increase your demons hp or have 1 point into Blood Oath and with plus skills from gear have a demon with about 11k life with a lvl 12 Blood Oath before bo.That means with plus 11 from gear and a bound demon from hell the demon would have 11k hp.


Wanna know something insane, with 1 point into Demonic Mastery and 1 point into Bind Demon, having them at lvl 19 from Battle Orders and just plus skill gear like Shako soj etc torch anni etc. If you binded a urdar in a tz p1 game that was cursed, you would have a demon with 4k physical damage with its own lvl 12 fanatism aura, and does 65 percent crushing blow on hit, 30k life 17200 attack rating, all res 75 except pison being 0, and 50 percent damage reduction. No other summoner skills in the game work like this. This would not work on summon necros or druids etc. at lvl 50 grizzly bear you would do 7200 damage in comparison to a lvl 19 grizzly bear doing 1k damage. In comparison to a lvl 50 Demonic Mastery and 50 Bind Demon urdar doing 16k damage .

Couple of corrections from this and previous posts:

1. 3.2 introduced health caps, so the maximum Hp that any Urdar can achieve in a P8 is 18,360 Hp. For a Lancer, their max possible health is 17,820. For superuniques like Lister and Heph, the max possible Hp is 27,000 Hp. So you cannot get any bound demon with 30K life anymore.

2. Blood Oath isn't working with bound demons (resists or Hp gain--not sure about the other bits). Pavke posted about it and I've also done some testing and found zero difference in health from a lvl 1 Blood Oath and lvl ~50 Blood Oath.

And I don't like the idea of a re-summonable bound demon. I think having a unique demon with a shelf-life adds an exciting element to the game in that it can drive you to play like hardcore in softcore, given that there is more than Gold and xp on the line--you can lose your carefully sought after demon. But when you do die or it dies, at least you don't lose your character and can start the hunt for a great demon again.

FerociousTerrier wrote: 1 hour ago

starskyj wrote: 2 hours ago

ShadowHeart wrote: 4 hours ago

Wouldn't this make them undead? And wouldn't this make warlock trespass into the necromancer's dominion? This does make me wonder about the lore - "actual" demons (I say "actual" because Corrupt Rogue are classified as demons but they were human once, they weren't created as demons) are supposedly immortal souls that will reform on death, and I'm guessing the bodies left behind in Sanctuary are just empty husks since the reformation process will begin immediately on death? Also, the bound demons are not technically summoned from the beginning (like defilers, goatmen and tainted), so if the warlock can just resummon them at will, why can't he just straight up summon whichever demon he wants to begin with? But I guess Blizzard could just make up a reason why it would work for a warlock to resurrect something and not let it be straight up necromancy.




This actually makes some sense. Bound demons could have a bit less hp with less skill point investment (and have about as much hp as they have now with more skill point investment). Maybe half as much at 1 hard point would be fair?

as a lvl 99 summon warlock i think that would be good, lister with lvl 50 bound demon and 50 Blood Oath binded in tz p8 would have about 304k life and 505k life after Battle Orders of lvl 16. Believe it or not in patch 3.1 when the expansion came out that same lister would have about 490k hp before bo. Thats why the bound demons seemed like they were tank gods. They were nerfed a bit in patch 3.2 in terms of their health. And no it wouldnt make the demons undead, druids can resummon bears and their pets, necro can resummon golems. I rather if they just flat out made it you could resummon your bound demon but drastically nerfed the hp say in hell mode the bound demons have 2000 hp in hell, nightmare they would have 300, and in normal they would have 200 then have bloodoath, increase it by the flat percentage already in the skill, so if you had lvl 50 Blood Oath your demon would have 36000 hp before bo and after bo about 50k hp is enough not to distrub pvp because players do 100 percent of their damage to enemy player pets. Meaning players would have to make a choice either invest heavy in Blood Oath to increase your demons hp or have 1 point into Blood Oath and with plus skills from gear have a demon with about 11k life with a lvl 12 Blood Oath before bo.That means with plus 11 from gear and a bound demon from hell the demon would have 11k hp.


Wanna know something insane, with 1 point into Demonic Mastery and 1 point into Bind Demon, having them at lvl 19 from Battle Orders and just plus skill gear like Shako soj etc torch anni etc. If you binded a urdar in a tz p1 game that was cursed, you would have a demon with 4k physical damage with its own lvl 12 fanatism aura, and does 65 percent crushing blow on hit, 30k life 17200 attack rating, all res 75 except pison being 0, and 50 percent damage reduction. No other summoner skills in the game work like this. This would not work on summon necros or druids etc. at lvl 50 grizzly bear you would do 7200 damage in comparison to a lvl 19 grizzly bear doing 1k damage. In comparison to a lvl 50 Demonic Mastery and 50 Bind Demon urdar doing 16k damage .

Couple of corrections from this and previous posts:

1. 3.2 introduced health caps, so the maximum Hp that any Urdar can achieve in a P8 is 18,360 Hp. For a Lancer, their max possible health is 17,820. For superuniques like Lister and Heph, the max possible Hp is 27,000 Hp. So you cannot get any bound demon with 30K life anymore.

2. Blood Oath isn't working with bound demons (resists or Hp gain--not sure about the other bits). Pavke posted about it and I've also done some testing and found zero difference in health from a lvl 1 Blood Oath and lvl ~50 Blood Oath.

And I don't like the idea of a re-summonable bound demon. I think having a unique demon with a shelf-life adds an exciting element to the game in that it can drive you to play like hardcore in softcore, given that there is more than Gold and xp on the line--you can lose your carefully sought after demon. But when you do die or it dies, at least you don't lose your character and can start the hunt for a great demon again.

k thx for the info i guess sorry the calulator on d2planner showed the value for patch 3.2 and the patch 3.1, i used the old values for the older patch for the hp values on Bind Demon. As for the hard-core bit if players wanted to play a hardcore play style, they would just play hardcore. So back to my suggestions i think just use bloodoath to increase their hp till they reach the hp Cap, like 27k for lister 18,360 for urdar etc. As for bloodoath it doesnt work by adding resistance to the bound demons but the damage reduction does apply i think.