More like SHAMmerdins, amirite?

I've been playing a lot of D2R since it launched. I built a few hammerdins. And I am in total agreement with the OP.

Blessed Hammer as an AWFUL, clunky, cumbersome skill and it just sucks @$$ on multiple levels. The ONLY good thing about it is that it does a lot, and I mean, A LOT of damage. It's like, imagine the most clunky and cumbersome skill in the game, but then make it do a SH!T ton of damage so that some people are willing to torture themselves enough to "git gud" and overcome the skill's inherent awful area coverage, damage delay, impossibility to use indoors or near any obstacles really, etc. Oh wait, we don't have to imagine that dystopian reality, it's here, and it's called

Blessed Hammer.

Seriously. I was leveling my paladin this ladder at around lvl 83. He was still specced Hammerdin because I couldn't respec until after the stupid Ancients were dead. So, my wife got so mad at me for the swearwords I was yelling at my computer from how ludicrously frustrating

Blessed Hammer is to use that she made me go without sex for the following four days. That was OK though because I got to respec to

Fist of the Heavens and actually have some fun those following nights.

Though I do have to respect how

Blessed Hammer can take a great game like Diablo 2, and then transform it into something so incredibly infuriating that I just want to throw my computer out the window. It's quite an amazing skill. Every time I use it, I the thought keeps running through my head over and over: HOW CAN ANYONE THINK THIS IS GOOD?????!!!!!!!!!

In my opinion you shouldn't be farming CS at all as a hammerdin without Enigma.

Travincal is the classic farming spot for hammerdins for good reason, and you'll quickly get all the pieces you need to farm the other areas with, especially if you're trading.

a pure test for any build that claims he is superior:
clear all areas with players 8 with ease.

that's my stake on powerful builds.

Xanhast70 wrote: 2 years ago

my 2 cents here they should have left Infinity and lower res alone nerfing it just because of the charms was short sighted, I skipped ladder this season and I notice the slow down compared to the previous seasons

Neither Infinity nor lower res got nerfed. If you're noticing a slow down, you've either changed up your gear or you're flat out imagining things.

Conviction/lower res merely got "unbuffed" before said buff was ever released as their full effect on immunes would've been a new thing with sunders specifically. But without sunders (so up until S2 and continuing for you since you're saying you skipped ladder [and hence won't have a sunder]), absolutely nothing changes. They're still at full effect against non-immunes and they're still at the same 1/5th against immunes that they've always been at.

No sunder = exactly the same bonus as before against non-immunes, exactly the same bonus as before against immunes
Sunder = exactly the same bonus as before against non-immunes, the same absolute bonus as before against immunes but starting from 95% rather than their original res (=better than with just conv/lower res)

Absolutely nothing about them has been nerfed.

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

Xanhast70 wrote: 2 years ago

my 2 cents here they should have left Infinity and lower res alone nerfing it just because of the charms was short sighted, I skipped ladder this season and I notice the slow down compared to the previous seasons

Neither Infinity nor lower res got nerfed. If you're noticing a slow down, you've either changed up your gear or you're flat out imagining things.

Conviction/lower res merely got "unbuffed" before said buff was ever released as their full effect on immunes would've been a new thing with sunders specifically. But without sunders (so up until S2 and continuing for you since you're saying you skipped ladder [and hence won't have a sunder]), absolutely nothing changes. They're still at full effect against non-immunes and they're still at the same 1/5th against immunes that they've always been at.

No sunder = exactly the same bonus as before against non-immunes, exactly the same bonus as before against immunes
Sunder = exactly the same bonus as before against non-immunes, the same absolute bonus as before against immunes but starting from 95% rather than their original res (=better than with just conv/lower res)

Absolutely nothing about them has been nerfed.

So you work there?

Xanhast70 wrote: 2 years ago

So you work there?

I was thinking the same thing...

rikus wrote: 2 years ago

Xanhast70 wrote: 2 years ago

So you work there?

I was thinking the same thing...

Lets see what he says, see if this "authority" is genuine....I just smell a strong opinion...but if the patch notes are wrong obviously he knows about that.....somehow....

we're just guessing. you can never know for sure.

I would just tend to believe the sentence from Schnorki means "according to what is in the patch noted, nothing about XXX has been nerfed".

However, as other builds have been upped, it it a "relative" nerf : the "old" XXX build works like before, some others though can do it differently / better than before / better than hammerdin (I don't care on my side, so will let anyone picks what they think on their side.

Anyway... comparing builds' efficiency is not my stuff, as long as I have fun with them ^^

Xanhast70 wrote: 2 years ago

rikus wrote: 2 years ago

Xanhast70 wrote: 2 years ago

So you work there?

I was thinking the same thing...

Lets see what he says, see if this "authority" is genuine....I just smell a strong opinion...but if the patch notes are wrong obviously he knows about that.....somehow....

What are y'all even referring to? All of the things Schnorki said are true and this is publicly available info. Sunder charms lower monsters res to 95% if they were immune.

Conviction aura applies at 1/5th efficacy against immunity-broken monsters.
No mechanics in non-ladder have changed in regards to monster immunities or resistances or

Conviction aura.

The "nerf" to

Conviction occurred before Sunder Charms and the ladder were released. The nerf was that they made

Conviction aura still apply at 1/5 efficacy against immunity-broken monsters. Before the nerf (on the PTR),

Conviction was applying at full efficacy against monsters whose immunity had been broken with Sunder charms. So, again, the nerf only applies to enemies who are affected by Sunder charms.

This nerf was a bad idea on multiple levels. Cold sorceresses have risen to comparative god-tier because of it. Meanwhile, Infinity- which requires TWO

Ber runes and a hard-to-find base while still really helpful, isn't any longer quite as necessary, and Cold Sorceresses barely need it at all (it only shaves off some required skill points of

Cold Mastery, is all). So high rune values have dropped a lot.

The solution in my opinion is to make

Conviction aura apply at 100% efficacy against sundered enemies, while making

Cold Mastery work at 1/5 efficacy against immunity broken enemies (be they broken by sundering or just

Conviction). Cold sorceresses will still do good damage against immunity-broken enemies but not just shatter them instantly, and all elemental builds will have a valuable chase item (Infinity) to work towards, raising high rune values and increasing the number of players playing builds that aren't cold sorceress. Once a cold sorceresses obtains an Infinity, they will do almost as much damage against immunity broken enemies as they do now.

tatarjj wrote: 2 years ago

Xanhast70 wrote: 2 years ago

rikus wrote: 2 years ago

I was thinking the same thing...

Lets see what he says, see if this "authority" is genuine....I just smell a strong opinion...but if the patch notes are wrong obviously he knows about that.....somehow....

What are y'all even referring to? All of the things Schnorki said are true and this is publicly available info. Sunder charms lower monsters res to 95% if they were immune.

Conviction aura applies at 1/5th efficacy against immunity-broken monsters.
No mechanics in non-ladder have changed in regards to monster immunities or resistances or

Conviction aura.

The "nerf" to

Conviction occurred before Sunder Charms and the ladder were released. The nerf was that they made

Conviction aura still apply at 1/5 efficacy against immunity-broken monsters. Before the nerf (on the PTR),

Conviction was applying at full efficacy against monsters whose immunity had been broken with Sunder charms. So, again, the nerf only applies to enemies who are affected by Sunder charms.

This nerf was a bad idea on multiple levels. Cold sorceresses have risen to comparative god-tier because of it. Meanwhile, Infinity- which requires TWO

Ber runes and a hard-to-find base while still really helpful, isn't any longer quite as necessary, and Cold Sorceresses barely need it at all (it only shaves off some required skill points of

Cold Mastery, is all). So high rune values have dropped a lot.

The solution in my opinion is to make

Conviction aura apply at 100% efficacy against sundered enemies, while making

Cold Mastery work at 1/5 efficacy against immunity broken enemies (be they broken by sundering or just

Conviction). Cold sorceresses will still do good damage against immunity-broken enemies but not just shatter them instantly, and all elemental builds will have a valuable chase item (Infinity) to work towards, raising high rune values and increasing the number of players playing builds that aren't cold sorceress. Once a cold sorceresses obtains an Infinity, they will do almost as much damage against immunity broken enemies as they do now.

Right thats what I was talking about all along they should have left it alone.

Xanhast70 wrote: 2 years ago

tatarjj wrote: 2 years ago

Xanhast70 wrote: 2 years ago

Lets see what he says, see if this "authority" is genuine....I just smell a strong opinion...but if the patch notes are wrong obviously he knows about that.....somehow....

What are y'all even referring to? All of the things Schnorki said are true and this is publicly available info. Sunder charms lower monsters res to 95% if they were immune.

Conviction aura applies at 1/5th efficacy against immunity-broken monsters.
No mechanics in non-ladder have changed in regards to monster immunities or resistances or

Conviction aura.

The "nerf" to

Conviction occurred before Sunder Charms and the ladder were released. The nerf was that they made

Conviction aura still apply at 1/5 efficacy against immunity-broken monsters. Before the nerf (on the PTR),

Conviction was applying at full efficacy against monsters whose immunity had been broken with Sunder charms. So, again, the nerf only applies to enemies who are affected by Sunder charms.

This nerf was a bad idea on multiple levels. Cold sorceresses have risen to comparative god-tier because of it. Meanwhile, Infinity- which requires TWO

Ber runes and a hard-to-find base while still really helpful, isn't any longer quite as necessary, and Cold Sorceresses barely need it at all (it only shaves off some required skill points of

Cold Mastery, is all). So high rune values have dropped a lot.

The solution in my opinion is to make

Conviction aura apply at 100% efficacy against sundered enemies, while making

Cold Mastery work at 1/5 efficacy against immunity broken enemies (be they broken by sundering or just

Conviction). Cold sorceresses will still do good damage against immunity-broken enemies but not just shatter them instantly, and all elemental builds will have a valuable chase item (Infinity) to work towards, raising high rune values and increasing the number of players playing builds that aren't cold sorceress. Once a cold sorceresses obtains an Infinity, they will do almost as much damage against immunity broken enemies as they do now.

Right thats what I was talking about all along they should have left it alone Im not on ladder and dont have sunders and ive noticed the nerf right away I'm not imagining anything at all.

Or reverting the effect of

Cold Mastery to be similar to the other Masteries : adding damage instead of piercing res.

+ inverting similar effects (

Tal 4 or 5 set bonus to

Pierce instead of adding damage,

Death's Fathom piercing instead of adding damage...)

Reducing effect on

Conviction and Lower res for immunes is OK IMHO, but 1/5 is probably a bit too much. Something like 1/3 would avoid too strong an effect while not making these items / spells auto-win.

And making physical / magical sunders at 75%, not 95%, + adding corresponding jewels.

Lots of good ideas I think the community could have if Blizzard listened and tested their features not in last 2 weeks before release...

For Xanhast : what nerf have you noticed in NL ? Could you provide details, as indeed it sounds surprising ?

Xanhast70 wrote: 2 years ago

tatarjj wrote: 2 years ago

Xanhast70 wrote: 2 years ago

Lets see what he says, see if this "authority" is genuine....I just smell a strong opinion...but if the patch notes are wrong obviously he knows about that.....somehow....

What are y'all even referring to? All of the things Schnorki said are true and this is publicly available info. Sunder charms lower monsters res to 95% if they were immune.

Conviction aura applies at 1/5th efficacy against immunity-broken monsters.
No mechanics in non-ladder have changed in regards to monster immunities or resistances or

Conviction aura.

The "nerf" to

Conviction occurred before Sunder Charms and the ladder were released. The nerf was that they made

Conviction aura still apply at 1/5 efficacy against immunity-broken monsters. Before the nerf (on the PTR),

Conviction was applying at full efficacy against monsters whose immunity had been broken with Sunder charms. So, again, the nerf only applies to enemies who are affected by Sunder charms.

This nerf was a bad idea on multiple levels. Cold sorceresses have risen to comparative god-tier because of it. Meanwhile, Infinity- which requires TWO

Ber runes and a hard-to-find base while still really helpful, isn't any longer quite as necessary, and Cold Sorceresses barely need it at all (it only shaves off some required skill points of

Cold Mastery, is all). So high rune values have dropped a lot.

The solution in my opinion is to make

Conviction aura apply at 100% efficacy against sundered enemies, while making

Cold Mastery work at 1/5 efficacy against immunity broken enemies (be they broken by sundering or just

Conviction). Cold sorceresses will still do good damage against immunity-broken enemies but not just shatter them instantly, and all elemental builds will have a valuable chase item (Infinity) to work towards, raising high rune values and increasing the number of players playing builds that aren't cold sorceress. Once a cold sorceresses obtains an Infinity, they will do almost as much damage against immunity broken enemies as they do now.

Right thats what I was talking about all along they should have left it alone.

No it wasn't. You quite literally compared now to "previous seasons" and mentioned you noticed a slowdown. The ONLY time

Conviction/lower res have ever worked at more than 1/5th against immunes in D2:R was on the PTR with a sunder charm equipped (so not "previous seasons"). And I don't have to work there to know that. The mechanics behind

Conviction/lower res and immunity breaking have been left untouched on live and have been public knowledge for quite literally decades now.

Conviction and lower res have always worked at full effect against non-immunes and have always worked at only 1/5th efficiency against immunes.

Hell, if it hadn't been for that, none of this whole new "ZOMG COLD SO GUD NAU!" discussion would've ever existed because even cold would've only had 3 mobs in the entire game that couldn't have been broken with Infinity. Similarly, fire sorcs/druids would've never had any problems because if it had ever worked at full effect, fire would've had exactly 0 mobs that couldn't have been broken with Infinity. Same for lightning. And lower res alone would've broken poison immunity on literally everything except for "fixed mobs" (towers & catapults). If it had EVER worked like that, the entire underlying discussion wouldn't have happened and sunder charms would never have been invented.

And if you read and actually comprehend blizzard's statement on the "un-buff" as compared to PTR, all it tells you is that it now again works exactly the same way it always has (i.e. was indeed "left alone"), confirming (much like any real play-testing) that your perceived slowdown is simply imaginary or due to other reasons.

It isn't a question of my "authority", it is a question of knowledge of basic game mechanics and reading comprehension.

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

Xanhast70 wrote: 2 years ago

tatarjj wrote: 2 years ago

What are y'all even referring to? All of the things Schnorki said are true and this is publicly available info. Sunder charms lower monsters res to 95% if they were immune.

Conviction aura applies at 1/5th efficacy against immunity-broken monsters.
No mechanics in non-ladder have changed in regards to monster immunities or resistances or

Conviction aura.

The "nerf" to

Conviction occurred before Sunder Charms and the ladder were released. The nerf was that they made

Conviction aura still apply at 1/5 efficacy against immunity-broken monsters. Before the nerf (on the PTR),

Conviction was applying at full efficacy against monsters whose immunity had been broken with Sunder charms. So, again, the nerf only applies to enemies who are affected by Sunder charms.

This nerf was a bad idea on multiple levels. Cold sorceresses have risen to comparative god-tier because of it. Meanwhile, Infinity- which requires TWO

Ber runes and a hard-to-find base while still really helpful, isn't any longer quite as necessary, and Cold Sorceresses barely need it at all (it only shaves off some required skill points of

Cold Mastery, is all). So high rune values have dropped a lot.

The solution in my opinion is to make

Conviction aura apply at 100% efficacy against sundered enemies, while making

Cold Mastery work at 1/5 efficacy against immunity broken enemies (be they broken by sundering or just

Conviction). Cold sorceresses will still do good damage against immunity-broken enemies but not just shatter them instantly, and all elemental builds will have a valuable chase item (Infinity) to work towards, raising high rune values and increasing the number of players playing builds that aren't cold sorceress. Once a cold sorceresses obtains an Infinity, they will do almost as much damage against immunity broken enemies as they do now.

Right thats what I was talking about all along they should have left it alone.

No it wasn't. You quite literally compared now to "previous seasons" and mentioned you noticed a slowdown. The ONLY time

Conviction/lower res have ever worked at more than 1/5th against immunes in D2:R was on the PTR with a sunder charm equipped (so not "previous seasons"). And I don't have to work there to know that. The mechanics behind

Conviction/lower res and immunity breaking have been left untouched on live and have been public knowledge for quite literally decades now.

Conviction and lower res have always worked at full effect against non-immunes and have always worked at only 1/5th efficiency against immunes.

Hell, if it hadn't been for that, none of this whole new "ZOMG COLD SO GUD NAU!" discussion would've ever existed because even cold would've only had 3 mobs in the entire game that couldn't have been broken with Infinity. Similarly, fire sorcs/druids would've never had any problems because if it had ever worked at full effect, fire would've had exactly 0 mobs that couldn't have been broken with Infinity. Same for lightning. And lower res alone would've broken poison immunity on literally everything except for "fixed mobs" (towers & catapults). If it had EVER worked like that, the entire underlying discussion wouldn't have happened and sunder charms would never have been invented.

And if you read and actually comprehend blizzard's statement on the "un-buff" as compared to PTR, all it tells you is that it now again works exactly the same way it always has (i.e. was indeed "left alone"), confirming (much like any real play-testing) that your perceived slowdown is simply imaginary or due to other reasons.

It isn't a question of my "authority", it is a question of knowledge of basic game mechanics and reading comprehension.

All bow down to your knowledge try not being a dick because you know something

Xanhast70 wrote: 2 years ago

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

Xanhast70 wrote: 2 years ago

Right thats what I was talking about all along they should have left it alone.

No it wasn't. You quite literally compared now to "previous seasons" and mentioned you noticed a slowdown. The ONLY time

Conviction/lower res have ever worked at more than 1/5th against immunes in D2:R was on the PTR with a sunder charm equipped (so not "previous seasons"). And I don't have to work there to know that. The mechanics behind

Conviction/lower res and immunity breaking have been left untouched on live and have been public knowledge for quite literally decades now.

Conviction and lower res have always worked at full effect against non-immunes and have always worked at only 1/5th efficiency against immunes.

Hell, if it hadn't been for that, none of this whole new "ZOMG COLD SO GUD NAU!" discussion would've ever existed because even cold would've only had 3 mobs in the entire game that couldn't have been broken with Infinity. Similarly, fire sorcs/druids would've never had any problems because if it had ever worked at full effect, fire would've had exactly 0 mobs that couldn't have been broken with Infinity. Same for lightning. And lower res alone would've broken poison immunity on literally everything except for "fixed mobs" (towers & catapults). If it had EVER worked like that, the entire underlying discussion wouldn't have happened and sunder charms would never have been invented.

And if you read and actually comprehend blizzard's statement on the "un-buff" as compared to PTR, all it tells you is that it now again works exactly the same way it always has (i.e. was indeed "left alone"), confirming (much like any real play-testing) that your perceived slowdown is simply imaginary or due to other reasons.

It isn't a question of my "authority", it is a question of knowledge of basic game mechanics and reading comprehension.

All bow down to your knowledge try not being a dick because you know something
oh nvm your a d2 god lets worship you oh god

spill forth your infinite knowledge oh d2 god since I dont comprehend anything

This thread sure turned into a shambles...

Ravoc wrote: 2 years ago

This thread sure turned into a shambles...

Yes, yes it did

Hammers is an acquired taste. I can't defend them, but I do have to admit their utility.
I generally have used mine in the past as a stepping Stone if I get drops that work well with them while getting established, to farm towards things I find more enjoyable. Then they collect dust unless I need to use them as a hybrid smiter or some bored

Key farming (I find when you have Enigma you're generally holding shift all the time so

Nihlathak farming becomes safer as you will likely not accidentally walk in one of the poison clouds.)

For the

Baal wave 2, since

Holy Bolt lost it's hammers synergy.. You could drop a point into

Smite/

Zeal depending on your gear, merc of course too. I like a point in

Redemption so I can clear out the skeli bodies that hammers take down, then work on the unravelers. Either way, it's not really going to feel that great.

If you stick with it, you'll get used to it, for better or worse. In my opinion, to play them with any sense of comfort, having

Teleport is really needed. You can namelock enemies and

Teleport on them, your hammers will hit instantly when you cast. Group clearing will be the same old thing though, cast a bit, reposition, cast a bit. Personally, the skill rotation doesn't really agree with my beat up hands anymore, I get fatigued faster playing hammers than most other classes. (The new hotkey system helps a little though.)

There's lots of good tips been posted in thread. If your really not feelin' it. Just toss him on the back burner and maybe revisit it later if you have acquired some gear for it. There of course are other pally builds if this is all you have leveled and wish to keep playing the class but not hammers.

I'm assuming you didn't kill

Baal yet because you rather play solo than get into multiplayer lobbies.

If you are having a bad time and only going through this ordeal because you want to get sunders to eventually get them out to Non Ladder, my advice would be to take a deep breath and deal with the multi player lobbies.

Sunder charms are RIDICULOUSLY easier to get on bigger games than solo. So far I've played twice as much solo than in lobbies and got 10 sunders from the lobbies vs only 1 solo. So I'd say just farm that as fast as possible on big games and then go back to what you enjoy.

But if you're dead set on beating the game solo, you could just stock up on a lot of potions and gold to

Revive your merc a couple times, as long as you kill the skellies as soon as they are revived, wave 2 should eventually die even with Insight on an exceptional base