For context: played D2 a bit as a kid but didn't know what I was doing, never even beat normal. Got D2R at launch and fell in love, been playing when I can since and have slowly accrued a modest amount of Wealth on non ladder, nothing impressive (i.e. no Enigma or Infinity or other such high end runewords).
Didn't really engage with Ladder S1 so thought I would try to do S2 properly, using trading to push myself on a bit, low level goals of getting some of these new runewords and sunder charms. In general I do not like casters and I'm averse to cookie cutter builds, preferring slightly obscure melee builds because I'm a masochist. However, with above stated goals in mind, I thought I would try a more standard approach for S2 and try my first ever hammerdin, on the basis that it's considered an OP farming build.
I hate him.
I hate the stupid noise he makes as he starts summoning hammers, I hate his silly little fist raising animation, I hate how cumbersome the hammer spirals are and how often I'm just standing there missing everything, I hate going inside with him at all. Sure, he can do a lot of damage without much gear but Hell Act 2 was an exercise in pure torture, Act 3 wasn't much better, and I haven't even managed to clear the game yet because of the second wave of Baal minions, so I've had no chance to farm Hell TZs for those charms. I've since been using him to farm Chaos but a) it's really quite slow, especially compared to my non ladder FoH build, and b) I'm absurdly vulnerable.
Therefore, my question to you good folks of D2io is, what am I missing? Is it simply that I need to "git gud" at positioning myself with those hammers? Or is it that hammerdins only work with certain pieces of gear? Or do I need to level up more? My merc and I are currently level 83.
Bearing in mind that I haven't been able to farm a lot of good stuff on Ladder yet, my current gear is:
+2 pally skills Coronet and amulet, Smoke in Scarab Husk, Wizardspike, perfect Spirit in a pally shield of some sort that had resistances, rare Belt with resistances, Chance Guards (best I have), Infernostride, two random rare rings with resistances, mostly resistance charms but a couple of +skills ones too. I had been using dual Spirit and Stealth in a Scarab Husk but found I was too vulnerable so when I got Wizardspike I was able to put Smoke on and keep enough FCR for the second best break point. My resistances are very good, well North of the 75% on Hell, but I'm still extremely squishy! Should I be doing something else with my gear?
On a related note, my merc is a problem. He has Tal Rasha's Crest, Insight in a War Scythe, and Smoke. I now have a Lem so intend to give him a Treachery once I find a decent base, but he needs to do more damage. I have Insight in a Colossus Voulge but he doesn't have the strength to wield it yet and I can't figure out a way to give him that strength beyond levelling. Any ideas?
For context: played D2 a bit as a kid but didn't know what I was doing, never even beat normal. Got D2R at launch and fell in love, been playing when I can since and have slowly accrued a modest amount of Wealth on non ladder, nothing impressive (i.e. no Enigma or Infinity or other such high end runewords).
Didn't really engage with Ladder S1 so thought I would try to do S2 properly, using trading to push myself on a bit, low level goals of getting some of these new runewords and sunder charms. In general I do not like casters and I'm averse to cookie cutter builds, preferring slightly obscure melee builds because I'm a masochist. However, with above stated goals in mind, I thought I would try a more standard approach for S2 and try my first ever hammerdin, on the basis that it's considered an OP farming build.
I hate him.
I hate the stupid noise he makes as he starts summoning hammers, I hate his silly little fist raising animation, I hate how cumbersome the hammer spirals are and how often I'm just standing there missing everything, I hate going inside with him at all. Sure, he can do a lot of damage without much gear but Hell Act 2 was an exercise in pure torture, Act 3 wasn't much better, and I haven't even managed to clear the game yet because of the second wave of Baal minions, so I've had no chance to farm Hell TZs for those charms. I've since been using him to farm Chaos but a) it's really quite slow, especially compared to my non ladder FoH build, and b) I'm absurdly vulnerable.
Therefore, my question to you good folks of D2io is, what am I missing? Is it simply that I need to "git gud" at positioning myself with those hammers? Or is it that hammerdins only work with certain pieces of gear? Or do I need to level up more? My merc and I are currently level 83.
Bearing in mind that I haven't been able to farm a lot of good stuff on Ladder yet, my current gear is:
+2 pally skills Coronet and amulet, Smoke in Scarab Husk, Wizardspike, perfect Spirit in a pally shield of some sort that had resistances, rare Belt with resistances, Chance Guards (best I have), Infernostride, two random rare rings with resistances, mostly resistance charms but a couple of +skills ones too. I had been using dual Spirit and Stealth in a Scarab Husk but found I was too vulnerable so when I got Wizardspike I was able to put Smoke on and keep enough FCR for the second best break point. My resistances are very good, well North of the 75% on Hell, but I'm still extremely squishy! Should I be doing something else with my gear?
On a related note, my merc is a problem. He has Tal Rasha's Crest, Insight in a War Scythe, and Smoke. I now have a Lem so intend to give him a Treachery once I find a decent base, but he needs to do more damage. I have Insight in a Colossus Voulge but he doesn't have the strength to wield it yet and I can't figure out a way to give him that strength beyond levelling. Any ideas?
Two points: your level is really low and you're clearly lacking experience with the hammers. But it'll come with time.
Even without any +skills, the hammers are absurdly powerful. What you want to improve is positioning and mobility. Don't spam hammers. Cast two, reposition slightly, repeat until everything is dead. I suggest farming the Pit and Chaos Sanctuary with a tele staff on swap until you get Enigma. Enigma bumps the hammerdin from A to S+.
As for Insight, the CV is nice but requires so muc strength that Andariel's Visage is almost a pre req. If you want a cheap intermediate option, try to buy an Eth exceptional (not elite, for example a Bec de Corbin or a Grim Scythe) to get your Insight, it will already be MUCH better than a normal base and can be bought way cheaper than an Eth Elite while being almost a good as a non Eth Elite.
Main: Necromancer / Second: Assassin / Third: Amazon / Check my stash, my crafts and my many cheap Annihilus
[Heads up: Heavily biased but still true wall of text incoming]
So..you go with hammers to finally have an "OP farming build" in exactly the season that makes tons of builds officially surpass them thanks to sunders? Fair enough.
Honestly though...yeah, hammers do "suck". Just because random streamers/guides/masses claim something is the best thing ever, doesn't make it so.
Do they throw out stupid amounts of damage even in precious little gear? Well, yes. But so do plenty of other builds.
Do they scale quite well with more gear? Also yes but also equaled if not surpassed by other builds.
Do they require top-end gear (specifically Enigma) to be good with? Not really though positioning is Key and low travel time is essential for any true farming build so you do need to get good with Charge until you get an Enigma.
The one true advantage of hammerdins over other builds with similarly high raw dmg output has always been the fact that a) they're sturdy as hell and b) they have to deal with little to no immunes in the traditional farming zones.
Now, since season 2 and sunders, (b) simply falls away entirely once you reach mid-gear as most of those other builds also no longer need to worry about immunes. Except for them it is now anywhere and not just most places so hammers actually fall behind. And since Terror zones shift farming from "pick and choose" to "deal with where we send you" (excluding certain just terrible zones that no build wants to bother with), that actually becomes a significant disadvantage for hammers overall. What used to be their aspect to shine in now has them falling behind nearly everyone else.
Point (a) (sturdiness) is simply a matter of gear. A half-geared hammerdin is nearly impossible to die with. But frankly, with a tiny bit of skill and/or higher end gear, that is true for most builds so mweh.
Beyond all of that, hammerdins suffer from a variation of the same hindrance that blizzard sorces suffer from. They have a hard Cap on kill speed. For blizzard that's fairly obvious, seeing how you can only cover x area in y seconds due to the casting delay, meaning you literally cannot kill anything outside of that area without waiting for y seconds.
For a hammer it doesn't quite feel like that because you can keep spamming hammers but hammers take forever to swirl around, they don't hit everything around you as is and you will repeatedly have mobs move to slip through. As a result, not only do you need more than one or two hammers to clear an area but if you really want to go for density, you need to hammer-step/port multiple times to actually cover everything. You simply can't do that in one cast/attack no matter how much gear you have, simply because game mechanics prevent you from doing so.
That's where builds that can spam true coverage area effects then immediately leave you in the dust when played correctly because they can jump in, kill everything in exactly the right spot and keep going without having to wait for any mechanic other than the bare minimum that is their cast rate. Most of those builds do take a decent bit of gear to really get started with which is why blizzard has become so stupidly popular this season (well, that and so many folks crying about how it is the new ultimate best thing ever without ever having played it beforehand I guess, making everyone and their mom go for one) but once you get to that gear (which you can still do in other builds), they outshine both of them.
The above isn't a real issue on bosses since you can position those however you please but for density clearing along the way..it adds up.
All that having been said...play what you enjoy. I for one wouldn't touch a hammerdin with a 10 foot pole ever again, simply because I utterly despise the playstyle but that's obviously quite subjective so not something to influence anyone else's decision making. If you actually enjoy twirly hammer silliness then by all means, go for it/stick with it. Even with all of the above in mind, they're still very far from bad. Definitely not the best..but still in the upper echelon. Objectively speaking, especially for ladder if you only want 1 char there because much as I hate them, they do make for solid allrounders still since a single pt in Smite lets you transition smoothly from your normal farming into ubers and dclone. There's not too many solid farming builds that can actually do that.
If you don't actually enjoy the playstyle though then don't force yourself just because some random guides/streamers exclaim them to be the best thing since sliced bread. There's always been plenty of equal/better alternatives and sunders made that more true than ever.
You could build a Vanquisher (Smite and BH hybrid) to get past the second wave of Baal's minions. Draw the skeletons away from the throne so the Horadrim Ancients do not continuously resurrect them. After you defeat Baal, go farm the Terror Zones.
One caveat -- this only works if you have some decent smiting gear. As a hybrid, your hammers will be a bit weaker than right now. But it gets you past Baal and is not a cookie cutter build!
I also extremely dislike playing a hammerdin, regardless of Enigma or fcr. But, I started with one because of dclone and Ubers. Abandoned him once leveled enough to make him a dominant smiter.
I am gonna just say one thing: the hammer always starts from 9:00 on screen ends at 3:00 no matter where u face, so put targets on left side of screen will make them take full hammer damage.
Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago
The one true advantage of hammerdins over other builds with similarly high raw dmg output has always been the fact that a) they're sturdy as hell and b) they have to deal with little to no immunes in the traditional farming zones.
Now, since season 2 and sunders, (b) simply falls away entirely once you reach mid-gear as most of those other builds also no longer need to worry about immunes.
Gotta strongly disagree with that one. WIthout endgame gear, "competing" builds like the light sorc and the furyzon suck major ass even with Crack of the Heavens. With just the charm and no Griffon's + Infinity, 95% light resistant mobs slow down your farming to a crawl, especially in later acts. To the point where you're better off ignoring them like they're still immune. But beyond that, without Infinity, your damage in later acts even against non-immunes is pathetic. I'm playing a geared lvl 92 furyzon (my next upgrade is a faceted Monarch; Eni + Griffon's are quite a bit away; everything else is standard), and with ~1-2800 Lightning Fury, I don't even bother with Chaos Sanctuary or Nihlatak's halls because the damage is so low. Not to mention playing with parties, where I'd barely be killing anything. The hammerdin doesn't have that problem. Magic Immunes are nigh non-existent, and his damage with budget gear is stupid.
I made a java this season hoping for variety, but I can only really farm the pit, cows, arcane, Tristram and Tal Rasha's tombs. The furyzon without Infinity is just shit. The hammerdin without Enigma still rocks.
Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago
The one true advantage of hammerdins over other builds with similarly high raw dmg output has always been the fact that a) they're sturdy as hell and b) they have to deal with little to no immunes in the traditional farming zones.
Now, since season 2 and sunders, (b) simply falls away entirely once you reach mid-gear as most of those other builds also no longer need to worry about immunes.
Gotta strongly disagree with that one. WIthout endgame gear, "competing" builds like the light sorc and the furyzon suck major ass even with Crack of the Heavens. With just the charm and no Griffon's + Infinity, 95% light resistant mobs slow down your farming to a crawl, especially in later acts. To the point where you're better off ignoring them like they're still immune. But beyond that, without Infinity, your damage in later acts even against non-immunes is pathetic. I'm playing a geared lvl 92 furyzon (my next upgrade is a faceted Monarch; Eni + Griffon's are quite a bit away; everything else is standard), and with ~1-2800 Lightning Fury, I don't even bother with Chaos Sanctuary or Nihlatak's halls because the damage is so low. Not to mention playing with parties, where I'd barely be killing anything. The hammerdin doesn't have that problem. Magic Immunes are nigh non-existent, and his damage with budget gear is stupid.
I made a java this season hoping for variety, but I can only really farm the pit, cows, arcane, Tristram and Tal Rasha's tombs. The furyzon without Infinity is just shit. The hammerdin without Enigma still rocks.
A Fury zon with low to mid gear still farms like crazy vs. non-immunes. If she's "just shit" there, then you're frankly just doing it wrong.
Against immunes, obviously the charm alone won't do squat. If it did, hammers wouldn't lose their advantage as it'd also work for them. But you don't need griff or Infinity to start seeing worthwhile gains from it on a light sorc or java, you can simply stack up some facets in the interim. That's (part of) why I said 'mid-gear' (a few facets certainly don't make for endgame gear). Hell, 4 facets alone do more against an immune than an Infinity does post-sunder.
Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago
A Fury zon with low to mid gear still farms like crazy vs. non-immunes.
Yeah, no, she doesn't. In act 1 and 2, maybe. Both light sorcs and furyzons have always relied on Infinity to get them to S tier. By "shit" I mean that she's nowhere near as fast or powerful as a budget hammerdin. Three or even four javelins to kill a tight group in CS is, by all accounts, shit.
Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago
Hell, 4 facets alone do more against an immune than an Infinity does post-sunder.
That's the thing: sunder charms did almost nothing for non-cold-sorc characters. You're still better off ignoring the former immunes.
My point is, the hammerdin still reigns supreme at all stages of the gearing process.
I have a couple of suggestions. Leviathan doesn't have resists, but has pys damage res and a huge strength bonus. I also had trouble finding an elite Insight base this season, and that is how i equipped a CV on my merc. And as for cheap Teleport staff, Naj's Puzzler has tp charges and is super cheap to repair.
I that being said, I fiddled with a hammerdin once and wasn't a huge fan so I stopped. If you are interested in other builds, pre-sunder i built a Frozen Orb/Fireball sorc i had a lot of fun with. and a summoner necro that hybridized a bit into Teeth and Bone Spear to give him some targeted damage.
A javazon can farm while being naked with just a random Javelin bought from Charsi.
Hammerdin is very bad in narrow areas like Maggot Lair. Without Teleport he can just kill enemy one by one.
I skimmed through this thread and what they are saying is mostly right. until you get better gear rock double Spirit. it will help you with fcr a lot. go for a Hoto(Heart of the Oak) as soon as you can. As many people have said POSITIONing is Key but no one said where to position lol. You generally want to place yourself "under" the mob when possible. This maximizes your hits when you are right "ontop" of something and as mobs run in at you they will get hit as well.
I used to main a sorc 20 years ago when I was playing non stop, but I went hammerdin for my return via d2r. I love using him, and while the positioning can be a bit cumbersome at times, I still love it. Positioning mobs at 12 o'clock or 9 o'clock is essential, but the other suggestion of casting a few hammers and then moving and doing it again is a great way to survive those areas where you feel squishy. Stick and move!
The only thing I haven't seen in replies is a solid answer to the magic immunes that pop in Baal's minions. I built a specific hammerdin build and trying to flip flop between smiting and BH is not attractive to me. I'd really like to see some solid advice on how to deal with those magic immunes, as they basically make farming Baal impossible.
there used to be a one point wonder that did a ton of damage to undead. but when 2.4 came out it got changed. so im not sure what to use now. as you get geared your merc can one shot those magic immunes for ya tho. Insight in an Eth base helps. or i like Obedience
Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago
A Fury zon with low to mid gear still farms like crazy vs. non-immunes.
Yeah, no, she doesn't. In act 1 and 2, maybe. Both light sorcs and furyzons have always relied on Infinity to get them to S tier. By "shit" I mean that she's nowhere near as fast or powerful as a budget hammerdin. Three or even four javelins to kill a tight group in CS is, by all accounts, shit.
Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago
Hell, 4 facets alone do more against an immune than an Infinity does post-sunder.
That's the thing: sunder charms did almost nothing for non-cold-sorc characters. You're still better off ignoring the former immunes.
My point is, the hammerdin still reigns supreme at all stages of the gearing process.
my 2 cents here they should have left Infinity and lower res alone nerfing it just because of the charms was short sighted, I skipped ladder this season and I notice the slow down compared to the previous seasons
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roosterglue wrote: 2 years ago
I used to main a sorc 20 years ago when I was playing non stop, but I went hammerdin for my return via d2r. I love using him, and while the positioning can be a bit cumbersome at times, I still love it. Positioning mobs at 12 o'clock or 9 o'clock is essential, but the other suggestion of casting a few hammers and then moving and doing it again is a great way to survive those areas where you feel squishy. Stick and move!
The only thing I haven't seen in replies is a solid answer to the magic immunes that pop in Baal's minions. I built a specific hammerdin build and trying to flip flop between smiting and BH is not attractive to me. I'd really like to see some solid advice on how to deal with those magic immunes, as they basically make farming Baal impossible.
Holy Bolt I add to that after I max everything its not speedy but it works well enough and is HC viable too.
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