Grief or Fort?

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

Tess wrote: 2 years ago

I got these and used before for

Frenzy,I got also Oath,tried every possibility,in the end Grief kills like slicing the butter
Death.jpgfury.jpg

I'm a little confused as to why this is happening.
Initially, it seems that the greater % of crit and crash, the higher the total damage.
But if you say that in fact this is not the case, then it is not clear which parameter in the Grief allows you to deal more damage.

Could you run a couple of tests? For example, how many seconds does it take you to kill Diablo with 2 Grief 's and with Death + Fury
Also if u have Beast, it would be interesting to compare these results with the combination Death + Beast

Grief top-end isn't that hard to compete with as you can see on your Death CB for example. What makes Grief so ridiculously good is the average damage. Your Death CB has a 1h range of 170 to 447. A Grief PB has an effective range of up to 431 to 435 because the +400 dmg essentially acts as both +min and +max. As a result, while you can meet or exceed the top-end with a lot of weapons, nothing else comes close to the average because all of the other options are typically massively below Grief in terms of minimum damage.

For crit, yes, the more you have, the better. Up to 100% obviously. However, Grief already comes with 20% DS itself. If you add in things like mastery, highlords and whatever else you may be using for crit already, extra crit on a diff weapon typically ends up making nowhere near enough of a difference anymore to make up for the loss in average dmg that you get with Grief.

Crushing (which you can also already get elsewhere) makes comparatively little damage on normal mobs because it is based on their current life which isn't all that high. Grief blows them up in 1-2 hits anyways. On things like ubers, crushing is massive and beats the hell out of the Grief dmg bonus while they still have a lot of life. However, the lower you drop those, the less damage crushing still does which is why the last like 10% tend to take significantly longer than the first 90. In that stage, Grief once again makes a massive difference to the point where overall, even on ubers, Grief tends to outperform Death (mainly since you can already get solid amounts of crushing without touching the weapon).

That's all not yet considering that a Grief PB comes with glorious base speed or that the other stats of Grief are actually also quite good. Those points are true but they can also apply to other weapons, they're not what makes it stand out so massively.

Thnks a lot for ur informative reply.Those are mine,not the owner of the question @Tess,as a result u clarified everything.

So let me be the Black sheep here
Grief is like
bombombombombombom
Death is like
bim badabum KABLAMMO bim BOOOM badabadaboom pif BOOOOOOOMM prot BOM
i personally don t like Grief cuz i think it is ugly boring, flat as the damage it adds.
I run bosses and ubers and i like to get them done quickly, even hell

Baal with Grief takes an outrageous amount of time while with

Eth zerker

Axe Death (for a zealer or coupled with ebotd for

Frenzy barb) you obliterate him in some 5 seconds
Grief is an asshole weapon, strong with the weak enemies and weak with the strong enemies

It became interesting for me to compare the damage from builds like:
1. Grief + Grief
2 Grief + Death
3. Beast + Death
for

Frenzy barbarian.

For the purity of the experiment, we will assume that all objects, blanks and rolls are perfect. In addition, we will assume that any additional stats from things are added to strength and, accordingly, increase damage.

1. Grief + Grief
One of Grief we collect in superior 15%

Phase Blade (35-40 damage). Accordingly, we receive 435-440 damage. Average damage is 437.

We collect the second Grief in

Colossus Sword (29-80). We don't care about the base speed of the blank for the second neck, because it will "grow" up to the speed in the lead hand.
Accordingly, we receive 429-480 damage. Average damage is 454.

Next, we calculate for 100 attacks, because we need to take into account the crit modifier. Each Grief gives 20% Deadly strike. These percentages add up, that is, in total we have 40%.

Therefore, the first Grief in PB will deal damage in 100 hits: 60*437 + 40*437*2 = 26220 + 34960 = 61180
The second Grief in CS deals damage in 100 hits: 60*454 + 40*454*2 = 27240 + 36320 = 63560 .

In total, with 2 vultures, we will deal 124,740 damage.

If I'm using the calculator correctly, then it turns out that the maximum attack speed (1 hit per 5 frames or 5 hits per second) is achieved WITHOUT having to wear any things that give an increase to iAS. That is, we do not need gloves + 20% iAS, nor an amulet with a bonus to iAS, nor jewels in a hat for 15% iAS.

=============================================

2 Grief + Death

For the neck in PB, we have already calculated the damage. It is equal to 61180.

Counting for Death in ethereal superior

Colossus Sword. Aether Sword base damage is 43-120. For ease of calculation, we add the superior 15% prefix with ED Death 385% and get + 400%. That is 215-600. Average damage 407.

At level 90 we have 45% crit + 20% Grief. Therefore, in total, our Death in

Colossus Sword will crit in 65% of cases.

We count the damage for 100 hits: 35*407 + 65*407*2 = 14 245 + 59 210 = 67 155.

Grief + Death will deal: 61180 + 67155 = 128355 damage. This is 3615 more damage per 100 hits than Grief + Grief. Well, or by 2.8%.

=============================================

And finally Beast + Death

We will collect this combination not in swords, but in axes, which have a lower base speed, but more damage. The lower base speed will be offset by the level 9 Zealotry aura, so we'll still get 1 attack per 5 frames or 5 attacks per second.

We will build Beast in a regular (not superior) Berserker ax (24-71), because common sense tells us that repairing an ax for 1.000.000 gold or a

Ral rune every 5 minutes is a perversion.

Don't forget that the word Beast gives us 40 extra strength. Yes, in real life we ​​will throw extra points into HP, but still we have a laboratory experiment, so we will leave them in force and get additional damage.
Min. damage = Min. weapon damage * (Strength + 100) / 100 = 24*(40+100) / 100 = 33 (wow, that's 9 more!)
Max. damage = Max. weapon damage * (Strength + 100) / 100 = 71*(40+100) / 100 = 99
So, with an additional 40 strength, we have not 24-71, but 33-99

With the addition of 270% we get 122-366 damage. Average damage is 244.

We consider the damage for 100 hits (remember that Death adds a crit chance to our weapons with Beast): 55*244 + 45*244*2 = 13420 + 21960 = 35 380.

Death we will collect in ethereal superior

Berserker Axe.

The base damage of an ethereal Berserker ax is 36-106 . For ease of calculation, we add the superior 15% prefix with ED Death 385% and get + 400%. That is 180-530. Average damage 355.

Calculate damage for 100 hits: 55*355 + 45*355*2 = 19525 + 31950 = 51475

Beast + Death deals: 35380 + 51475 = 86855. That's a whopping 30% less than Grief + Grief or Grief + Death!!!

=============================================

Final results.
1st Grief + Death = 128,355
2nd Grief + Grief = 124,740 (3% less)
3rd Beast + Death = 86,855 (30% less)

I will be happy if you check my calculations and point out my mistakes to me.

True, these places are only for pure damage. Something tells me that if you take into account the crash, then Beast + Death may well catch up with the previous two builds. Maybe, as it was, it will remain in 3rd place, but the gap should be reduced.

Nah don t go Beast for your barb, too low dmg and very expensive. You can get top speed just with equip

Steccothal wrote: 2 years ago

Nah don t go Beast for your barb, too low dmg and very expensive. You can get top speed just with equip

Without Beast we cant take axes because of the low base speed. And I personally do not like how the Barbarian looks with swords. This is some kind of heresy. Barbarian must be with axes, to really look like a barbarian

Over time, any player has 100,500

Jah in his pocket, which is no longer worth spending

Tess wrote: 2 years ago

Steccothal wrote: 2 years ago

Nah don t go Beast for your barb, too low dmg and very expensive. You can get top speed just with equip

Without Beast we cant take axes because of the low base speed. And I personally do not like how the Barbarian looks with swords. This is some kind of heresy. Barbarian must be with axes, to really look like a barbarian

Over time, any player has 100,500

Jah in his pocket, which is no longer worth spending

Well you can get top speed with axes, why not? With

Frenzy at least. Botd as primary weapon and some stuff that gives you around 50 ias should do the trick. I don t remember exactly, maybe you need botd and 55 ias, but it seems to me that you can do top speed with zerker axes

Tess wrote: 2 years ago

It became interesting for me to compare the damage from builds like:
1. Grief + Grief
2 Grief + Death
3. Beast + Death
for

Frenzy barbarian.

For the purity of the experiment, we will assume that all objects, blanks and rolls are perfect. In addition, we will assume that any additional stats from things are added to strength and, accordingly, increase damage.

1. Grief + Grief
One of Grief we collect in superior 15%

Phase Blade (35-40 damage). Accordingly, we receive 435-440 damage. Average damage is 437.

We collect the second Grief in

Colossus Sword (29-80). We don't care about the base speed of the blank for the second neck, because it will "grow" up to the speed in the lead hand.
Accordingly, we receive 429-480 damage. Average damage is 454.

Next, we calculate for 100 attacks, because we need to take into account the crit modifier. Each Grief gives 20% Deadly strike. These percentages add up, that is, in total we have 40%.

Therefore, the first Grief in PB will deal damage in 100 hits: 60*437 + 40*437*2 = 26220 + 34960 = 61180
The second Grief in CS deals damage in 100 hits: 60*454 + 40*454*2 = 27240 + 36320 = 63560 .

In total, with 2 vultures, we will deal 124,740 damage.

If I'm using the calculator correctly, then it turns out that the maximum attack speed (1 hit per 5 frames or 5 hits per second) is achieved WITHOUT having to wear any things that give an increase to iAS. That is, we do not need gloves + 20% iAS, nor an amulet with a bonus to iAS, nor jewels in a hat for 15% iAS.

=============================================

2 Grief + Death

For the neck in PB, we have already calculated the damage. It is equal to 61180.

Counting for Death in ethereal superior

Colossus Sword. Aether Sword base damage is 43-120. For ease of calculation, we add the superior 15% prefix with ED Death 385% and get + 400%. That is 215-600. Average damage 407.

At level 90 we have 45% crit + 20% Grief. Therefore, in total, our Death in

Colossus Sword will crit in 65% of cases.

We count the damage for 100 hits: 35*407 + 65*407*2 = 14 245 + 59 210 = 67 155.

Grief + Death will deal: 61180 + 67155 = 128355 damage. This is 3615 more damage per 100 hits than Grief + Grief. Well, or by 2.8%.

=============================================

And finally Beast + Death

We will collect this combination not in swords, but in axes, which have a lower base speed, but more damage. The lower base speed will be offset by the level 9 Zealotry aura, so we'll still get 1 attack per 5 frames or 5 attacks per second.

We will build Beast in a regular (not superior) Berserker ax (24-71), because common sense tells us that repairing an ax for 1.000.000 gold or a

Ral rune every 5 minutes is a perversion.

Don't forget that the word Beast gives us 40 extra strength. Yes, in real life we ​​will throw extra points into HP, but still we have a laboratory experiment, so we will leave them in force and get additional damage.
Min. damage = Min. weapon damage * (Strength + 100) / 100 = 24*(40+100) / 100 = 33 (wow, that's 9 more!)
Max. damage = Max. weapon damage * (Strength + 100) / 100 = 71*(40+100) / 100 = 99
So, with an additional 40 strength, we have not 24-71, but 33-99

With the addition of 270% we get 122-366 damage. Average damage is 244.

We consider the damage for 100 hits (remember that Death adds a crit chance to our weapons with Beast): 55*244 + 45*244*2 = 13420 + 21960 = 35 380.

Death we will collect in ethereal superior

Berserker Axe.

The base damage of an ethereal Berserker ax is 36-106 . For ease of calculation, we add the superior 15% prefix with ED Death 385% and get + 400%. That is 180-530. Average damage 355.

Calculate damage for 100 hits: 55*355 + 45*355*2 = 19525 + 31950 = 51475

Beast + Death deals: 35380 + 51475 = 86855. That's a whopping 30% less than Grief + Grief or Grief + Death!!!

=============================================

Final results.
1st Grief + Death = 128,355
2nd Grief + Grief = 124,740 (3% less)
3rd Beast + Death = 86,855 (30% less)

I will be happy if you check my calculations and point out my mistakes to me.

True, these places are only for pure damage. Something tells me that if you take into account the crash, then Beast + Death may well catch up with the previous two builds. Maybe, as it was, it will remain in 3rd place, but the gap should be reduced.

Sorry to say, your math is off on a few parts which leads to (significantly) incorrect results.

First and foremost, when you dual wield, things like deadly strike or crushing on your weapons don't just get added up. You get the bonus of the weapon you are swinging with. So with dual Grief, you get 20% on both, not 40. And with Grief/Death you get 20 for Grief and 49 for Death, not 69 on both.

Also, the way you're calculating weapon dmg is off somewhere. A col. sword starts at 26-70 one-hand dmg.

Eth adds 50% to that, pushing it to 39-105, not the 43-120 you have there. Adding 400ED to that (15 sup + 385 Death) gives you a final dmg of 195 - 525 or 360 average. So a fair bit less than what you have.

Regardless though, I would challenge the premise of such an oversimplified calculation. You're looking only at very isolated and selective weapon stats, not considering targets and crushing (which would bump Death) or additional sources of crit (which would bump Grief) or the impact of Grief on other gear choices you can go for (due to the inherently faster attack speed). Only to name a few. Grief demon damage, Grief Venom, Death glacial, Beast open wounds (if not already elsewhere), ... there's significantly more factors playing into this.

You're probably better off comparing the actual full gear loadouts on d2planner or the like. Given, they have a history of being wrong on a few pieces/skills/mechanics but in this case it'll probably still give you a much better result than an overly simplified isolated comparison like this one.

Schnorki wrote:

You're probably better off comparing the actual full gear loadouts on d2planner or the like. Given, they have a history of being wrong on a few pieces/skills/mechanics but in this case it'll probably still give you a much better result than an overly simplified isolated comparison like this one.

Thank you for your comment. Yes, you're right, I need to recalculate. I really made a mistake here and there.

I'd really like to see a live comparison of these three combinations to see how many seconds each of them would take to kill

Baal, for example.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find anything similar on the Internet. It is very strange that in 20 years no one has conducted such tests or made them public.

Tess wrote: 2 years ago

Schnorki wrote:

You're probably better off comparing the actual full gear loadouts on d2planner or the like. Given, they have a history of being wrong on a few pieces/skills/mechanics but in this case it'll probably still give you a much better result than an overly simplified isolated comparison like this one.

Thank you for your comment. Yes, you're right, I need to recalculate. I really made a mistake here and there.

I'd really like to see a live comparison of these three combinations to see how many seconds each of them would take to kill

Baal, for example.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find anything similar on the Internet. It is very strange that in 20 years no one has conducted such tests or made them public.

Got me curious so I went ahead and "plannered" it out just for the hell of it (with the gear that I would personally use for max DPS).

Grief/Grief CS (which is minimally higher than Grief/Grief PB) vs. Grief/Death vs. Beast/Death, assuming perfect rolls across the board.
All 3 of them hit max attack speed so no difference there.

Base dps:
Grief/Grief = 76,856
Grief/Death = 71,408
Beast/Death = 57,832

Time to kill

Baal:
Grief/Grief = 16.40s
Grief/Death = 14.59s
Beast/Death = 15.77s

Basically, Grief/Grief wins on overall base damage but loses on bosses due to the massive difference in crushing blow.
That's to be expected though because I actually went for allround gear here (after all, in real runs, most of your time is spent running and on trash, not on the boss at the end). If you wanted to optimize

Baal kill speeds and the like, you can (very easily) stack significantly more base crushing which in turn fills that gap for Grief, makes it less valuable on Death and pushes Grief/Grief to the front across the board.

Also, this is based on the pure attack dmg without Venom. I was too lazy to add in the proc dmg and whatnot so took out Venom as well to make it more even again. Though none of them will cause a massive shift.

What these numbers don't show is that with Grief/Grief, that dmg is fairly reliable. With the others, you'll occasionally get more and occasionally get less due to the inherently much higher damage spread.

And finally, one thing to keep in mind is that Beast/Death does also buff your merc's DPS due to giving him

Fanaticism. Though that will generally not outweigh the loss in your own dps outside of bosses.

Personally, I would still go with Grief/Grief any day.
Double PB at that. PB/CS does offer minimally(!) more damage but adds in the need for repairs and let's face it, pb + cs just looks stupid.
The repair time alone, even if only every few games, probably more than outweighs the teeny tiny gain in dps.

Schnorki wrote:

Time to kill

Baal:
Grief/Grief = 16.40s
Grief/Death = 14.59s
Beast/Death = 15.77s

Thank you so much for this simulation! I'm new to the game - I've only been playing for 3 weeks. And it infuriates me that in the guides the authors do not bother with any calculations at all. They don't count frames or damage, and don't compare their builds to others.

And as a new player, I really want to not just repeat the equipment for some YouTuber, but to understand the logic both at the level of theory and at the level of simulation.

Thank you very much again. I think your comments and your simulation will be useful not only to me, but to many others.

Tess wrote: 2 years ago

Schnorki wrote:

Time to kill

Baal:
Grief/Grief = 16.40s
Grief/Death = 14.59s
Beast/Death = 15.77s

Thank you so much for this simulation! I'm new to the game - I've only been playing for 3 weeks. And it infuriates me that in the guides the authors do not bother with any calculations at all. They don't count frames or damage, and don't compare their builds to others.

And as a new player, I really want to not just repeat the equipment for some YouTuber, but to understand the logic both at the level of theory and at the level of simulation.

Thank you very much again. I think your comments and your simulation will be useful not only to me, but to many others.

Sure thing.

Do take the dps/time to kill numbers with a grain of salt though. Ignoring the part where they are merely "best case averages" and not exactly real-world, and the fact that dps numbers alone (as compared to "swings to kill") tell you a lot less about actual clear speed, they're still dependent on maxroll not having f'd up those calculations too much which..who knows.

Where is the Chance of Crushing Blow in your calculation?
Grief can deal more damage with +ED
With a single 40% Jewel 370*40%*100hits = 14800
Forti => 300%, Phoenix => 340-400%