Attack Speed

Okay so thoughts on this subject. I get that people 'need' fast weapons because, breakpoints. Alright, is the issue then that the breakpoints are ill designed thus forcing folks to always use the same quickest bases? Or is there another solution out of this conundrum? I always get the feeling that not reaching certain BPs might be mitigated by huge boosts in damage output versus say, modifying the way BPs are calculated. What does the community think about this? I want to wield gigantic, high damage weapons again like I did in Classic. I don't like being 'forced' into a small pool of bases for every build in the game.

for the ww barb, if u could get to 5 frames with a

War Pike or

Thunder Maul it would be worth it, but u can only go to 6 frames....

that's why i chose botd in a 2-handed CB-
4 frames and 600 ave damage
cf Grief same speed 400 ave damage

o/c for

Berserk /

Concentrate - good luck with a 2 hand weapon...

ghostpos wrote: 2 months ago

Okay so thoughts on this subject. I get that people 'need' fast weapons because, breakpoints. Alright, is the issue then that the breakpoints are ill designed thus forcing folks to always use the same quickest bases? Or is there another solution out of this conundrum? I always get the feeling that not reaching certain BPs might be mitigated by huge boosts in damage output versus say, modifying the way BPs are calculated. What does the community think about this? I want to wield gigantic, high damage weapons again like I did in Classic. I don't like being 'forced' into a small pool of bases for every build in the game.

Attack speed is also a matter of survival for some builds. A Strafezon build requires placing virtually all your attribute points in dexterity. Attack speed then becomes important for mana and life leech for survival.

Thank goodness for Breath of the Dying. Yeah I guess I'm just annoyed at the lack of theory crafting options for two-handed melee builds. To be fair, I know nothing about the amazon world as I'm aware bases like

Matriarchal Spear can slap.

Well, in theory, faster weapons do come with lower base dmg which in turn should result in a choice between 'speed' and 'dmg per hit'. Not inherently ill designed but rather a solid range.

In reality, that doesn't hold up across the board.
Yes, there are still a few builds/options where you can indeed happily

Sacrifice max attack speed in favor of massive dmg per hit and end up with the same or more overall dmg as you would in the speed variant.

But there are also quite a few builds for which weapon dmg itself ends up being a comparatively minor factor, resulting in speed winning across the board there as the other 'dmg boosts' don't scale based on speed or lack thereof. That's things like crushing blow, other dmg procs, dmg granted by skills (e.g. java stuffs) and so on. That part is the somewhat ill designed piece as you gain close to nothing from slowing down your attacks due to lack of scaling.

And then there are some builds of course in which you'd ideally hit a very specific attack speed which may well be neither the fastest nor the slowest but somewhere in between at which point you dive into the true theorycrafting beauty that is D2 as you build your speed around hit delays and all that jazz.

All in all, the core approach isn't ill designed I dare say and different builds still do have different priorities but yeah, skill/proc dmg and such not scaling with speed does shift things in clear favor of that for a fair few builds.

All the [complicated nitpicky components of the damage equation etc etc] are multiplied by your attack rate, so attack rate has an overwhelming effect on your overall damage

For example, the difference between 5-frame

Whirlwind and 4-frame

Whirlwind might seem small, but it's an overall DPS difference of 30%. Factor in crushing blow and deadly strike (BOTD has neither), and 5- or 6-frame

Whirlwind is fun, but not efficient

Fury druid has a wide range of decent choices for 2-hand bases, but 2-handed

Whirlwind was just too severely nerfed by patch 2.4, at least for my way of playing the game

marl71 wrote: 2 months ago

All the [complicated nitpicky components of the damage equation etc etc] are multiplied by your attack rate, so attack rate has an overwhelming effect on your overall damage

For example, the difference between 5-frame

Whirlwind and 4-frame

Whirlwind might seem small, but it's an overall DPS difference of 30%. Factor in crushing blow and deadly strike (BOTD has neither), and 5- or 6-frame

Whirlwind is fun, but not efficient

Fury druid has a wide range of decent choices for 2-hand bases, but 2-handed

Whirlwind was just too severely nerfed by patch 2.4, at least for my way of playing the game

Yeah that checks. I wonder if Blizz can strike some middle-Ground between pre and post patch 2.4 with respect to

Whirlwind specifically. Or even just go back to it's original math, perhaps OP.

All this wouldn't be some issue if physical wasn't in disadvantage compared to elemental/magic attacks. Melee damage is totally screwed in this version of the game. Mosaicsin/Java/Novasorc are dominating by far and this destroys all diversity and tactic this game would offer otherwise.

Since 2H is inferior to dual 1H there is no real choice.

Bottom line is: you need to squeeze every inch out of your damage potential that's available, so better go dual wield. Or go

Double Throw.

I wish Blizz would do some balancing patches at least, but I don't think this will happen, because this needs to massively nerf OP builds and would be a lot of work. This game and the passionate player base would deserve it...

And before someone asks: Buffing melee to a comparable level would NOT solve the problem. The endgame of D2R is way too easy. Powercreep is the cause, not the solution!

One thing I have learned is diversity is a great thing in this game. I have some characters set up for the bleeding Edge of what is top tier meta, but then I also have some characters that are "fluff". Or just for fun. If you like swinging around a big 2 handed weapon like Conan the Barbarian then I say have at it! Unless the build/equipment is so poor that you literally can't play the game that is...

DasNarf wrote: 2 months ago

[..]
Bottom line is: you need to squeeze every inch out of your damage potential that's available
[..]

Do you though?

Mind you, I fully agree that some builds utterly eclipse others. It'd be rather hard to argue against that.

But very much in line with your point of the endgame being way too easy (also agreed), why would you have to squeeze out every inch? Sure, it makes you better. But ultimately, it takes things from "really easy" over "way too easy" to "way, way WAYYYY too easy". And D2 PvM isn't exactly a competition in any way, short of intentionally signing up for some speed run challenges. Or theoretically the season ladder race I guess but that's more about a dedicated support group than anything else anyways.

As a result, even if you don't squeeze out every inch but instead go with a build you yourself prefer the style of, you'll still end up with something that's way too easy and as such really doesn't require you to squeeze out anything more. The only thing actually forcing you into cookie cutter meta builds is your own "feeling bad" over not shaving off another second or handful of seconds per run as compared to a more fun to you build which I would very much argue isn't worth it in the long run.

Mind you, I fully get wanting to min-max and truly optimize and I certainly do that myself as well but never at the cost of changing the core build/loadout into something I enjoy less (e.g. my bowzon is about as maxed out as a bowzon gets but will never turn into a java just to bump clear speed even further).

I was refering to the multplayer-part mostly.

Full agreement to your posting for solo play, but in higher player games, barbs need to min-max everything to not be reduced to a simple BO-bot. My

Frenzy (wielding perfect Grief and an inventory filled with maxdam/ar charms!!!) has a really hard time in P8 Chaos Runs for example. I always leave when a Mosaicsin/Java/Novasorc joins the game, because I am absolutely useless from then on. In the time I kill a Venom Lord, the others wipe the whole screen. Even my 2FPA/8K average damage Strafezon feels weak there.

I could hork a bit, but YAY, Phoenix even kills that option. This is game design from hell, thank you, Blizzard.

Well yeah, if you look at "contributing", then that's a slightly different story but even then you don't need to min/max the build you're running (which would make comparatively small a difference) but would need to completely change the build itself. Sad (and not an option to me personally) as it is.

Barbs really only have a few ways to truly contribute in "meta-including" MP and none of them is damage.

Being a BO-bot is the obvious first one.

Beyond that, barbs make for top-tier teleporters if so built as they're the only ones with FCR breakpoints on par with sorcs.

And if you're coming in with

War Cry (which pairs well with the tele idea actually), the spam-

Stun can make a noticeable difference as well as, both defensively (typically not needed) but also in herding/control/subsequent clearspeed bumps.

That's largely it though. No barb build will ever truly significantly contribute to total damage output (when playing with correctly played top-tier builds), no matter how optimized everything is, simply because you're inherently limited by barb skill design while others continue to blow up the entire screen instantly.

Same way my smiter - decked out and optimized as he may be - will never do anything but 'run after the group' in cs pugs because the skill design simply doesn't allow for it by comparison. Doesn't mean he doesn't just steamroll through everything by himself but javas and disco sins will simply continue to steamroll far harder no matter what.

Bit of an annoying truth in overall balancing there, at least for the content you typically do run in groups. And merely min-maxing your existing build just won't change that in any significant way.

Ubers were a niche where melee builds (mostly smiters) shone before patch 2.5, with mandatory crushing blow. With different unbreakable immunities, AoE elemental builds used to be useless there. Until Sunder charms were introduced, removing the immunities that used to keep elemental builds in check. Now beating any content, including Ubers, is just a DPS check, with ele AoE builds outclassing anything else.