Opinion: Single Player Infinity Base

justinman114 wrote: 4 days ago

Yes, the sometimes up to 2 second delay to apply it to enemies. I thought that was gone if self wielding, maybe I'm wrong?

You're not wrong about the delay, but's far less noticeable when it's on you compared to your merc because you're carrying it and... most importantly, you get your -45 to -55 LR instantly. With a sunder, you're hitting lightning immune monsters for decent damage even without Conviction hitting. Honestly, Conviction is a secondary feature of Infinity when self-wielding. I think Conviction offers like -17 LR to immunes. Far less than you're carrying... especially if you have a colossus jewel, renewed sunder, griffons, facets, etc.

I would probably self wield Infinity even if it didn't have Conviction aura. The natural competitor would be Crescent Moon and a 4os Monarch with facets. Which you could get up to -55 LR and then have +20% lightning damage (which is not much because it stacks with Lightning Mastery). Yea I'd still go Infinity for the MF and run/walk.

departure wrote: 4 days ago

justinman114 wrote: 4 days ago

Yes, the sometimes up to 2 second delay to apply it to enemies. I thought that was gone if self wielding, maybe I'm wrong?

You're not wrong about the delay, but's far less noticeable when it's on you compared to your merc because you're carrying it and... most importantly, you get your -45 to -55 LR instantly. With a sunder, you're hitting lightning immune monsters for decent damage even without Conviction hitting. Honestly, Conviction is a secondary feature of Infinity when self-wielding. I think Conviction offers like -17 LR to immunes. Far less than you're carrying... especially if you have a colossus jewel, renewed sunder, griffons, facets, etc.

I would probably self wield Infinity even if it didn't have Conviction aura. The natural competitor would be Crescent Moon and a 4os Monarch with facets. Which you could get up to -55 LR and then have +20% lightning damage (which is not much because it stacks with Lightning Mastery). Yea I'd still go Infinity for the MF and run/walk.

I might try my current setup (Crescent Moon Runeword with Spirit) and do what someone else suggested and dump points into Warmth instead of ES. Maybe do a half HP half MP setup too. Idk, I will have to tinker. Eventually I can forsee having the runes to make another Infinity anyways lmao

justinman114 wrote: 4 days ago

departure wrote: 4 days ago

justinman114 wrote: 4 days ago

Yeah it will be slightly sketchy with Conviction delay but I guess it's still gonna be pretty OP.

What do you mean Conviction delay? Just the time that it takes for Conviction to affect surrounding monsters?

Yes, the sometimes up to 2 second delay to apply it to enemies. I thought that was gone if self wielding, maybe I'm wrong?

Common misconception. It applies to all auras, it’s just how the game code was written. You can tell when you tp around with Infinity it takes a moment for the enemies around you to show the green Conviction aura even if you are self wielding.

justinman114 wrote: 4 days ago

I might try my current setup (Crescent Moon Runeword with Spirit) and do what someone else suggested and dump points into Warmth instead of ES. Maybe do a half HP half MP setup too. Idk, I will have to tinker. Eventually I can forsee having the runes to make another Infinity anyways lmao

Self wielding the Mancatcher with ES will be better. That is unless you're absolutely strapped for FCR.

20 from gloves, 20 from head (something like hellwardens maybe?), 30 from vipermagi, 20 from rings. You still need 15 at the amulet unless you have arach or gheeds... I guess you could craft a Belt though.

departure wrote: 4 days ago

justinman114 wrote: 4 days ago

I might try my current setup (Crescent Moon Runeword with Spirit) and do what someone else suggested and dump points into Warmth instead of ES. Maybe do a half HP half MP setup too. Idk, I will have to tinker. Eventually I can forsee having the runes to make another Infinity anyways lmao

Self wielding the Mancatcher with ES will be better. That is unless you're absolutely strapped for FCR.

20 from gloves, 20 from head (something like hellwardens maybe?), 30 from vipermagi, 20 from rings. You still need 15 at the amulet unless you have arach or gheeds... I guess you could craft a Belt though.

FCR wouldn't be a problem, I was just assuming that str/dex req would leave me with a lot less hp/mp. It might not be so bad though.

I would shy completely away from Self-wield and just make a Merc Infinity.

Nova sorc is about +skills and having Infinity on merc is amazing say on a Mang Song Nova or even Eschuta does well. You also can't really make a powerful Javazon without one on your Merc.

There's just too many builds where Infinity Merc is BIS

D369 wrote: 1 day ago

I would shy completely away from Self-wield and just make a Merc Infinity.

Nova sorc is about +skills and having Infinity on merc is amazing say on a Mang Song Nova or even Eschuta does well. You also can't really make a powerful Javazon without one on your Merc.

There's just too many builds where Infinity Merc is BIS

Yeah I forgot to update, but I went ahead and made it in one of my Eth Mancatcher s

justinman114 wrote: 1 day ago

Yeah I forgot to update, but I went ahead and made it in one of my Eth Mancatcher s

Unreal! Great choice and it'll serve you well!

mikelessar wrote: 1 day ago

D369 wrote: 1 day ago

I would shy completely away from Self-wield and just make a Merc Infinity.

Nova sorc is about +skills...

No, Nova Sorc damage is not just about +skills. Equally important is minus enemy lightning res. That's what a self-wield Infi provides. -45% to -55% to enemy light res is huge! And you don't get that if your merc wears the Infi. If a Merc Infi were enough, Nova Sorcs would use Hoto or Crescent Moon Runeword + Spirit (more offensive) or Phoenix (more defensive). Mang's is too weak for a Nova Sorc. She has many better options.

The numbers just don't show that. The minus enemy res on the Infinity clearly is helpful and goes without saying on that side of things. The funny part is - recent numbers show that to non-immune targets - Mang Song's is stronger and the strongest Cow farmer over Self-wield Infinity. To immune targets that need to be broken - Infinity wins there. Due to much of the game being non-immune, and having FCR on the weapon - Mangs is extremely competitive as an option. I know the old guard doesn't like this being the case but the data is there and can't be argued with.

here's a Onedrive link (hope it's allowed) to an Excel sheet with the damage numbers:

https://1drv.ms/i/c/f7b0d703893d72e4/IQ ... Y?e=VZapY7

D369 wrote: 12 hours ago

mikelessar wrote: 1 day ago

D369 wrote: 1 day ago

I would shy completely away from Self-wield and just make a Merc Infinity.

Nova sorc is about +skills...

No, Nova Sorc damage is not just about +skills. Equally important is minus enemy lightning res. That's what a self-wield Infi provides. -45% to -55% to enemy light res is huge! And you don't get that if your merc wears the Infi. If a Merc Infi were enough, Nova Sorcs would use Hoto or Crescent Moon Runeword + Spirit (more offensive) or Phoenix (more defensive). Mang's is too weak for a Nova Sorc. She has many better options.

The numbers just don't show that. The minus enemy res on the Infinity clearly is helpful and goes without saying on that side of things. The funny part is - recent numbers show that to non-immune targets - Mang Song's is stronger and the strongest Cow farmer over Self-wield Infinity. To immune targets that need to be broken - Infinity wins there. Due to much of the game being non-immune, and having FCR on the weapon - Mangs is extremely competitive as an option. I know the old guard doesn't like this being the case but the data is there and can't be argued with.

here's a Onedrive link (hope it's allowed) to an Excel sheet with the damage numbers:

https://1drv.ms/i/c/f7b0d703893d72e4/IQ ... Y?e=VZapY7

Mang Song's was considered a bad weapon before RotW and it only became relevant for WL since he can use it with one hand.
A sorc has always better options.

When clearing general areas, Infinity wins. When looking at specific areas, like cows, then thins like Obsession can beat Infinity and they will always surpass Mann Song's.

The issue with Excel based "proof" is that it's average damage is not the right Metrik, you have to take a look at kill speed. If you deal 10x the damage of their life pool to one enemy bot 0 damage to another, your average damage looks great but you kill speed sucks. So it basically comes down to: how fast can you kill the enemy with the highest resistance towards your build.

If you want to prove your claim, you have to get out of excel and do enough runs and measure the actual clear speed.

vued wrote: 11 hours ago

Mang Song's was considered a bad weapon before RotW and it only became relevant for WL since he can use it with one hand.
A sorc has always better options.

When clearing general areas, Infinity wins. When looking at specific areas, like cows, then thins like Obsession can beat Infinity and they will always surpass Mann Song's.

The issue with Excel based "proof" is that it's average damage is not the right Metrik, you have to take a look at kill speed. If you deal 10x the damage of their life pool to one enemy bot 0 damage to another, your average damage looks great but you kill speed sucks. So it basically comes down to: how fast can you kill the enemy with the highest resistance towards your build.

If you want to prove your claim, you have to get out of excel and do enough runs and measure the actual clear speed.

So doing more damage to targets will get you a faster clear speed. The Excel sheet was not done by me- it's verified and shows to non-immune targets a Mang Song's Lesson in fact does more damage than an Infinity Self-wield so there's nowhere really to hide here?

Mang Song's has been an excellent option for a Nova Sorc long before ROTW - I think you just haven't noticed or hated the Meta being challenged I don't know.

Here's a video - feel free to tell me it sucks:

mikelessar wrote: 8 hours ago

You are also forgetting that putting the Infinity on the merc means that he can't wear Insight and your Life and Mana regen is weakened strongly. You really want the Prayer+Cure+Insight healer combo.

I'm unfortunately not forgetting anything. With a massive Mana pool - the strength of Warmth is so much that Insight isn't needed and Energy Shield never drops even under heavy fire in P8. Check out ES Sorc for more info. You don't need the Prayer bonus of Insight because you're an Energy Shield build - you don't need much HP or even much res it's kinda crazy.

It's best if you assume this is an already established build and I'm the echo chamber, and not some random BS I just came up with myself and am selling to everyone here, because that's actually what's happening. I didn't invent this build good sir.....

mikelessar wrote: 5 hours ago

D369 wrote: 6 hours ago

You don't need the Prayer bonus of Insight because you're an Energy Shield build - you don't need much HP or even much res it's kinda crazy.

I know this build quite well, I have a level 97 Nova Sorc. Prayer is not about the life regen, it is used for its synergies with Cure's Cleansing aura (versus posion and curses) and Insight's Meditation aura.


But we are getting nowhere here.

You go Mang's (with +skills and fcr) and Infi on merc

I go self-wield infi (with enemy light res, MF, vitality and Cyclone Armor) and Cure+Pray+Insight (high life and mana regen) on merc.

I have no doubt what is better for me, and you believe in your setup.

Mate you're ignoring what I'm saying and then deeming this conversation to be bust. Let's just pretend you didn't try to tell me how a Cure Prayer Insight Merc works and go back to where everyone knows how that synergy works, sound good?

The Merc is still wearing Cure - so you're getting Cleansing. He's also still a Prayer Merc so you're getting something there, and your Health isn't really affected as you're Energy Shield build - Mana takes the hit. You also generate enough Mana to sustain and absolutely do not need Insight. Don't ignore the fact that ES Sorcs exist please and thank you. It's not unique to me or thousands of others online.

You're one of many who refuse to give Mang Song's the credit it deserves and just say it's outright wrong to do it when it's actually better in most scenarios including P8 Cows so it's just better if you accept it and still do what you prefer to do anyway. Spending time on here denying its value is just outright weird. The build works - thousands of people play it and there are numbers and footage to back it up ^^ please check that YT link and see for yourself.

D369 wrote: 6 hours ago

vued wrote: 11 hours ago

Mang Song's was considered a bad weapon before RotW and it only became relevant for WL since he can use it with one hand.
A sorc has always better options.

When clearing general areas, Infinity wins. When looking at specific areas, like cows, then thins like Obsession can beat Infinity and they will always surpass Mann Song's.

The issue with Excel based "proof" is that it's average damage is not the right Metrik, you have to take a look at kill speed. If you deal 10x the damage of their life pool to one enemy bot 0 damage to another, your average damage looks great but you kill speed sucks. So it basically comes down to: how fast can you kill the enemy with the highest resistance towards your build.

If you want to prove your claim, you have to get out of excel and do enough runs and measure the actual clear speed.

So doing more damage to targets will get you a faster clear speed. The Excel sheet was not done by me- it's verified and shows to non-immune targets a Mang Song's Lesson in fact does more damage than an Infinity Self-wield so there's nowhere really to hide here?

Mang Song's has been an excellent option for a Nova Sorc long before ROTW - I think you just haven't noticed or hated the Meta being challenged I don't know.

Here's a video - feel free to tell me it sucks:

I never said it sucked, I just said that vs. immunes self wield Infinity is stronger and against non-immunes Obsession is stronger.

I also did not ask you to "show me a video", I said: do enough runs and measure clear speed if you want to prove your point. The proof is in the pudding.

You claim that mang song deals more damage vs. immunes, which is simply wrong:
Immunes after sunder are at 95 res. After merc Infinity (17), lesson (15) griffon (20), and guardian's sunder (10) and 1 additional facet (5), they are at 28%res
Self Infinity provides -35 more than faceted lesson, so a total of -7%.

At lvl 37 (self Infinity), you deal 3,916,5 avrg damage before res, 4,190.655 after res.
At lvl 42 (mang song), you deal 5,026.5 avrg damage before res, 3,619.08 after res.

Even if you'd add another +1 skill to reflect the 30fcr (which does not really make sense but for the sake of the argument), that would only be another +4.7% damage increase for lesson.

tl;dr: Infinity > Mang Song's Lesson for Nova sorc vs. immunes.

But as @mikelessar says: You do you, I do me. If you are happy and I am happy, we can run different builds, right?

vued wrote: 4 hours ago

D369 wrote: 6 hours ago

vued wrote: 11 hours ago

Mang Song's was considered a bad weapon before RotW and it only became relevant for WL since he can use it with one hand.
A sorc has always better options.

When clearing general areas, Infinity wins. When looking at specific areas, like cows, then thins like Obsession can beat Infinity and they will always surpass Mann Song's.

The issue with Excel based "proof" is that it's average damage is not the right Metrik, you have to take a look at kill speed. If you deal 10x the damage of their life pool to one enemy bot 0 damage to another, your average damage looks great but you kill speed sucks. So it basically comes down to: how fast can you kill the enemy with the highest resistance towards your build.

If you want to prove your claim, you have to get out of excel and do enough runs and measure the actual clear speed.

So doing more damage to targets will get you a faster clear speed. The Excel sheet was not done by me- it's verified and shows to non-immune targets a Mang Song's Lesson in fact does more damage than an Infinity Self-wield so there's nowhere really to hide here?

Mang Song's has been an excellent option for a Nova Sorc long before ROTW - I think you just haven't noticed or hated the Meta being challenged I don't know.

Here's a video - feel free to tell me it sucks:

I never said it sucked, I just said that vs. immunes self wield Infinity is stronger and against non-immunes Obsession is stronger.

I also did not ask you to "show me a video", I said: do enough runs and measure clear speed if you want to prove your point. The proof is in the pudding.

You claim that mang song deals more damage vs. immunes, which is simply wrong:
Immunes after sunder are at 95 res. After merc Infinity (17), lesson (15) griffon (20), and guardian's sunder (10) and 1 additional facet (5), they are at 28%res
Self Infinity provides -35 more than faceted lesson, so a total of -7%.

At lvl 37 (self Infinity), you deal 3,916,5 avrg damage before res, 4,190.655 after res.
At lvl 42 (mang song), you deal 5,026.5 avrg damage before res, 3,619.08 after res.

Even if you'd add another +1 skill to reflect the 30fcr (which does not really make sense but for the sake of the argument), that would only be another +4.7% damage increase for lesson.

tl;dr: Infinity > Mang Song's Lesson for Nova sorc vs. immunes.

But as @mikelessar says: You do you, I do me. If you are happy and I am happy, we can run different builds, right?

Is there any way you can point out the section where I said Mang Song's was stronger Vs immunes? I'd like to see that part.

mikelessar wrote: 4 hours ago

You sound a little bit like the people who have bought dozens of Mang's to flip them after Llama said that it would be OP, only then for people to realize that Obsession offers a better package. Now they are sitting on their Mang's and hardly anyone wants them. I have met one of them in-game. He tried to convince me that his 11 fire Mang's for just 4 Jah was vastly OP.

Seriously, why can't you accept that not everyone agrees with you?

I've never bought a Mang Song's in my life. You sound like someone who makes incredible characterizations of people and feel real smug about that apparent gift when you log-off...

There is nothing to disagree with, so I'm not sure why you're making this a choice? I mentioned to the OP my opinion that Infinity is decent on Merc over self-wield and he agreed and didn't follow your advice so can you just accept that and move on?

I mentioned Mang's was a nice option and you come in trying to save the day and say the build doesn't work when thousands of people have ES Sorcs! Like what rock have you been living under? Please don't answer that.