Dooms -enemy cold res

Unless we can settle the comparison on the

Frozen Orb - it will not be possible to make any "final verdict".

If you can go along with this - here is the math:

Baal on hell P1 has 493.701 hp - he has 50% cold res - https://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/m ... baal.shtml

Frozen Orb takes 8 frames to cast and has 25 frames delay - the real time is aprox. 1,32 seconds - that none of the weapons can do anything about - and as such does not need fcr - but lets assume we are overcapped with 105 just to pick a number that would match real game setups.

With endgame gear - DF setup will typically result in 24 skill pts. into

Cold Mastery +1 for the base pick. A total of level 25 resulting in -140 cold res.

The -resistance

Cap is set at -100 (and this is why DF would, on paper look much better and faster).

Now, you are cherry picking Ball on Hell - which is a great example to be honest - though with somewhat more total hp than the 99.9 monsters you kill during a gameplay - but who counts

DF setup ends on -155 (140 from CM 15 from 3 x 5/5 facets) and thus

Baal takes double dmg.

Doom setup ends on -205 (140 from CM 10 from 2 x 5/5 facets 60 from Doom) and thus

Baal takes double damage.

The above numbers does not matter in this case - since the Ball only has 50% cold res - but lets keep them in mind.

I have played several Cold Sorc Setups with perfect gear. As in perfect - not the "perfect" you ever so often see here on the trade site. You know what i mean

However, this will probably be better to explain with the "raw math" as you refer to but are unable to perform? Since you keep talking about it and use claims that you can not backup with the same math that you refer to ... I am not sure how to respond, but I am trying my best

The damage varies a bit - depending on the resource - but here are some numbers that I find realistic:

Frozen Orb bolt does 3088 "base dmg"

This means that Doom setup will end on 3088 x 2 = 6.176 dmg per bolt

DF setup will end on 3088 x 1.194 x 2 = 7.374 dmg per bolt

If you need the explanation and math behind the 1.194 factor - let me know - it can be complicated to explain. This is the final result of the 30% from DF and the 5% from facet - on paper the +35 to cold dmg.

All of this will end up with:

Doom needing 80

Bolts to kill

Baal.

DF needing 67

Bolts to kill

Baal.

Frozen Orb releases up to 46

Bolts. With a big target like

Baal - would it be fair to assume that 15-20

Bolts hits him?

This means that Ball will die on the 4th casted

Frozen Orb - regardless of which weapon you choose.

Is this math enough to convince you that my statement is true?

It only becomes even more obvious as you apply this on the 99.9 % of monsters you kill elsewhere.

Now, are you willing to look into how the cold sorc gets to

Baal in P1?

The 5 waves Tell me, who will get to kill

Baal fastest? The one with DF or the one with Doom?

If

Baal is at -150 with both Doom and Df, then the +1 extra skill from DF and the +15-30% extra cold damage is considerable (+FCR, of course). If you think that this extra damage from DF "does not matter", you may believe so. I do not.
This is also due to me often playing with a higher player count.

Baal will not die in just 4

Frozen Orb casts with P7. But I never play

Frozen Orb. For Blizzard, I can tell you that I need less casts to kill

Baal or high level heralds with DF than with Doom. And even if I only killed mobs, I would still go for the better damage weapon, so that I might switch out skillers for MF small charms to get my uniques grail faster. Why would I willingly want to settle for an inferior weapon like Doom if I have access to DF? Because it "does not matter, anyway"? Makes no sense. And DF kills the 5 waves faster with Blizzard, of course, since you can get them all get most waves to -100, then the extra damage form DF wins. Lister might be the exception because of Spectral Hit. Doom is safer because of the crowd control from

Holy Freeze and it is faster for sundered waves.

But I'm starting again to try to convince you and that's impossible and for whatever reason not anyone else here says if you or me is correct.
So we can just quit it here. GL to you.

mikelessar wrote: 2 hours ago

If

Baal is at -150 with both Doom and Df, then the +1 extra skill from DF and the +15-30% extra cold damage is considerable. If you think that this extra damage from DF does not matter, you may believe so.
And I, for once, often play with a higher player count.

Baal will not die in just 4

Frozen Orb casts with P7. But I never play

Frozen Orb. For Blizzard, I can tell you that I need less casts to kill

Baal or high level heralds with DF than with Doom. And even if I only killed mobs, I would still go for the better damage weapon, so that I might switch out skillers for MF small charms to get my uniques grail faster. Why would I willingly want to settle for an inferior weapon like Doom if I have access to DF? Because it "does not matter, anyway"? Makes no sense. And DF kills the 5 waves faster with Blizzard, of course, since you can get them all to -100, then the extra damage form DF wins. Doom is only safer because of the crowd control from

Holy Freeze. But it is slower as it is for

Baal (and by more than the 17% you calculated).

But I'm starting again to try to convince you and that's impossible and for whatever reason not anyone else here says if you or me is correct.
So we can just quit it here. GL to you.

Thank you, but I dont need luck

Changing the narrative is what "experts" like you need to do for your subjective statements to make any sense.

But would you please share with, and I think I can speak on behalf of all the D2R players in the entire world - how do you bring all 5 waves to -100 with DF setup?

I have a question, hell

Baal, non tz, what kind of equipment can reach same performance as earlier mention perfect DF / Doom? 4 cast kill maybe?

Make it as low equipment need as possible?(low 1 bit, you will become 5 cast kill..)

retepnap wrote: 2 hours ago

But would you please share with, and I think I can speak on behalf of all the D2R players in the entire world - how do you bring all 5 waves to -100 with DF setup?

The waves that spawn cold immune cannot be brought to -100. In these cases, Doom is better, as I said from the beginning. But most waves do not spawn cold immune.

We just disagree on which of the two is overall the better weapon and I get that. Doom definitely has its qualities because sundered monsters with remaining cold res can be a pain.

But you must get that Doom is not "always better" as you have claimed. That was in its absoluteness a false verdict. But without saying it, you have withdrawn this absolute viewpoint, so lets just stop it here.

mikelessar wrote: 1 hour ago

retepnap wrote: 2 hours ago

But would you please share with, and I think I can speak on behalf of all the D2R players in the entire world - how do you bring all 5 waves to -100 with DF setup?

The waves that spawn cold immune cannot be brought to -100. In these cases, Doom is better, as I said from the beginning. But most waves do not spawn cold immune. We just disagree on which of the two is overall the better weapon and I get that. Doom definitely has its qualities because sundered monsters with remaining cold res can be a pain. But you must get that Doom is not always better. That was your false verdict. But without saying it, you have withdrawn this absolute viewpoint, so lets just stop it here.

Thats odd - you clearly wrote "And DF kills the 5 waves faster with Blizzard, of course, since you can get them all to -100, then the extra damage form DF wins."

But I guess I dont understand "expert" langauage

I have beyond any reasonable doubt, presented you with math and fact that you can choose to ignore - that does not make them false.

The more you play - the better Doom becomes - ie. if you are running 1 hour of TZ96 in P8 game - Doom will dominate DF by a huge margin - unless you just skip all the cold immune monsters

retepnap wrote: 1 hour ago

Thats odd - you clearly wrote "And DF kills the 5 waves faster with Blizzard, of course, since you can get them all to -100, then the extra damage form DF wins."

Yes, get them all to -100 is wrong, just most of them. I corrected it.

I never claimed that I am more of an expert than you in general. I just stated and proved and you admitted that your verdict (quote: "Doom is better vs. any monster - not just the ones with immunity.") is false.

But you have convinced me to test Doom once again to see if the roughly 25% sundered enemies that can be killed much faster with Doom are worth it to drop the roughly 35% more damage from a well rolled DF with facet. Most players go with DF, so do I so far, but I will test it. The race might turn out to be close and very situational.

mikelessar wrote: 1 hour ago

retepnap wrote: 1 hour ago

Thats odd - you clearly wrote "And DF kills the 5 waves faster with Blizzard, of course, since you can get them all to -100, then the extra damage form DF wins."

Yes, get them all to -100 is wrong, just most of them. I corrected it.

I never claimed that I am more of an expert than you in general. I just stated and proved and you admitted that your verdict (quote: "Doom is better vs. any monster - not just the ones with immunity.") is false.

But you have convinced me to test Doom once again to see if the 20-25% sundered enemies that can be killed much faster with Doom are worth it to drop the roughly 35% more damage from a well rolled DF with facet. The race will be close and very situational.

That sounds awesome to me. Would you allow me to borrow you a Doom - ethereal

War Axe -60? I have no idea of the prices these days - but it was more than 40+ jahs not that long ago iirc. Please accept and I assume you know how to assign a spell on the left mouse, so that you dont wear it down

NB: my Doom will never be for sale - just to be clear!

No, thank you. Will have to make one for my chronicle, anyway. If I need advice on how to assign keys or click the buttons of my mouse, I will come back to you.

I'm still waiting for your DM.

mikelessar wrote: 1 hour ago

No, thank you. Will have to make one for my chronicle, anyway. If I need advice on how to assign keys or click the buttons of my mouse, I will come back to you.

I'm still waiting for your DM.

Ahh yes, the chronicles ... so many projects to finish

Well, it rolls from 40-60 so a huge difference I would say.

What DM? What did I miss