Absolutely Max Damage Demon--into the weeds

I still don't understand exactly how damage of your demon is calculated, but in an exercise to crunch numbers, I learned a few things I didn't know previously. This is all based on the assumption that the following thread is mostly true:
https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo2/commen ... ow_so_far/

That is to say, your demon has a first snapshot on binding that dictates its aura/level, monster level, and health, but it does not snapshot its damage (and perhaps health after modifications like Blood Oath). Also that your demon has a second snapshot every time it spawns in a new game, and this snapshot takes your skill levels, specifically Bind Demon (and maybe Demonic Mastery for AR and Blood Oath for health and resists??), and calculates the damage your demon will deal for the rest of the game, before modifiers like auras, Amplify Damage and such.

Therefore, it is in your interest to stack as much Bind Demon skill as possible before exiting a game and starting a new one, at least any time you plan on doing something difficult like Colossal Ancients or Ubers (I dunno, never done one).

But wait! What about Demonic Mastery? That adds a % damage that your demon does as well. Turns out, that % damage is already added into the Bind Demon skill, so the higher DM goes, the higher BD goes. Which is best to maximize, though? BD increase flat damage and +5% damage per level, and DM increases 10% damage per level. Is the flat damage or the % damage more important?

To simulate this, I had some fun with Maxroll D2planner.

The very maximum you can get DM at the start of a game (since you can't prebuff) is Level 56:
Weapon: +3 Demonic +3 Bind Demon Dagger
Shield: +3 Demonic +3 Bind Demon Grimoire
Ammy: +3 Demonic
Helm: +2
Chest: +2
Rings: +2
Belt: +1
Boot: +1
Hellfire/Anni: +4
GCs: +9
= total +36 Bind Demon
All of that equip also results in Lvl 50 Demonic Mastery and Lvl 50 Blood Oath

These are my calculations (if I'm calculating correctly) for Lister the Tormentor: Now, if we decided to change the +3 Bind Demon staff mods for +3 Demonic Mastery, we end up flipping them around to 50/56, respectively: I am assuming that the skill adds the flat damage first and then add the % damage increase afterwards and this becomes the Base Weapon Damage of Lister the Tormenter. Note that the flat damage has a very significant effect on the "Base Weapon Damage" damage of Lister the Tormentor before things like auras, assuming the calculation is correct. It means we should max out Bind Demon as priority. The damage at that point is ~16K per hit by Lister the Tormentor. I don't think that is amazing even after linking 10 mobs, BUT, lucky us, we get a free aura and our Merc can pile on as well... and lets not forget Cursed! When you start looking at those percentages stacking up (assuming that upon spawn, the demon's base weapon damage is ~16K and that Fanaticism, Concentration and Might each add a percentage of THAT value on top as off-weapon ED... but I may be wrong), we are seeing some really decent damage on the order of 100K+. Cursed is where it goes cuckoo, resulting in ~300K damage per hit before factoring in physical resistances. Assuming 50% physical resistances, that would still be >200K damage in one hit.

Someone should really check me on those calcs...

Note also, however, that this setup includes ridiculously difficult to find Dagger and book. So I just did a quick re-calc using my current gear setup with Obsession, Mara, a Splendor +3 Bind Demon book (which I have a base for) and only 3 GCs: And that's s big drop, but still ~100K damage per hit pre- Amplify Damage. I don't have a merc with Pride yet, and Lister is currently rocking Conviction, but once the patch hits, I will aim for a Cursed Fanaticism demon and Pride. NOTE: this is without having to do any gear juggling before starting a new game.

If you wanted a more reasonable gear-juggle-scheme, you could get a Mang Song's Lesson instead of super rare godly Dagger and the aforementioned Splendor Grimoire, while quickly swapping out 5-6 GCs for your Gheed's, Sunder(s), cube and spare inventory space: This is quite nice, as it gives you a big damage boost and won't take 10 years of visiting Drognan and re-rolling blue daggers/books to achieve.

I expect that everyone has read this post in fine detail and am now happy to hear your comments, critiques and corrections to my math. Thanks!

I forgot to mention. Since the flat damage absolutely dwarfs the normal damage of every demon in the game, it almost shouldn't matter which demon you bind. The affixes are probably the most important and "demon skills".

What might be crazy is that the Dark Lancer's Jab might do all of that damage 3 times at once! But really, as that point, one hit should be enough, right?

Also forgot to mention that I do not know when/how Blood Oath modifies the demon, but I expect it is similar to the snapshot of Bind Demon at the start of a game--in any case, doesn't matter because the numbers are silly (>1 million health) and the caps are going to be in effect soon enough.

Sorry, I added another calculation. This time asking what happens if the % damage from Bind Demon (and Demonic Mastery) is added AFTER the spawn snapshot, and that the spawn snapshot only adds the +flat damage, thus making the Bind Demon %ED calculation an off-hand %ED calculation alongside Fanaticism/ Concentration/Might. Below are the numbers, which actually seem more realistic. I would also assume these numbers are more dynamic, meaning the %ED will vary depending on current skill levels, so in this case, I'm starting with max Bind Demon and then swapping back to regular adventure gear: These numbers all seem more realistic, because with my current gear and Lister the Tormentor with Conviction (no Fanaticism, Might or Concentration, but yes, Amplify Damage), it is taking him a fair amount of time to beat down Baal in P1. I doubt that would be the case if he was slapping for 100K each time.

So tl;Dr, Bind Demon needs a huge nerf

Lemzodistber wrote: 3 months ago

So tl;Dr, Bind Demon needs a huge nerf

It would appear so. In practice, I'm still twiddling my thumbs while the demons whack at P1 Baal, so...

I suspect the % damage increase from the skill is treated as off-hand type damage, i.e., summed up with Fanaticism, Might, etc.

FerociousTerrier wrote: 3 months ago

Lemzodistber wrote: 3 months ago

So tl;Dr, Bind Demon needs a huge nerf

It would appear so. In practice, I'm still twiddling my thumbs while the demons whack at P1 Baal, so...

I suspect the % damage increase from the skill is treated as off-hand type damage, i.e., summed up with Fanaticism, Might, etc.

Blunderbore kills Baal on p1 extremely fast. Comparing to Hephasto or Lister in almost no time.

This is without me using Blood Boil.
Just Blunderbore and 2* Tainted.

dionisy_cn wrote: 3 months ago

FerociousTerrier wrote: 3 months ago

Lemzodistber wrote: 3 months ago

So tl;Dr, Bind Demon needs a huge nerf

It would appear so. In practice, I'm still twiddling my thumbs while the demons whack at P1 Baal, so...

I suspect the % damage increase from the skill is treated as off-hand type damage, i.e., summed up with Fanaticism, Might, etc.

Blunderbore kills Baal on p1 extremely fast. Comparing to Hephasto or Lister in almost no time.

This is without me using Blood Boil.
Just Blunderbore and 2* Tainted.

I am looking for a Blunderbore or Lancer whenever their zones are terriorized, but hard find the right one in public games--I am aiming for a cursed pack leader. The only one I've found so far in Durance was perfect until Lister killed him

Also, I think my calculations are definitely incorrect. They are not hitting for such big numbers...

I just got a dark lancer pack leader from a P8 Terror zone... Omg, she's insane. I have a hard time locating her on the screen since she zips around all the time. Lightning Immune, Cold Immune, Magic Resistant.. sadly, she was not cursed but she did get fantaticism. Kills trash much faster than Lister. She just face tanked Diablo Clone--perhaps not too surprising with the lightning immunity and magic resist. Still. O donhave to be careful with using Blood Boil or just forgetting about her since she can lose some health. I haven't seen monsters hurt her yet, though. It's just apparent when using Blood Boil. We'll see how she does with Baal and cows.

Why don't people ever bind the quad immune pit fiends from the Uber portals?

Lemzodistber wrote: 3 months ago

Why don't people ever bind the quad immune pit fiends from the Uber portals?

Some do for a super tank, but I understand that they spend a large amount of time using their special fire attack that doesn't receive the bonuses of Bind Demon flat and enhanced damage. So a bit weak. I don't have firsthand experience, but that's what I've read.