Find item / Find potion Synergy?

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

If this is true, there will be a lot more hork barbs leeching in public CS runs. Hopefully they bring along maxxed BO. If it wasn't so mind-numbingly boring, I would consider doing it myself.

It's true. Tried, tested and found in the code. Not really debatable at this point. The question is, will Blizz keep it in there?

As for mind-numbingly boring, I think you're exaggerating a bit. Throw a HOTO or 2 on your weapon swap for 40-80% FCR, and BAM, horking speed nearly doubled, only takes an extra few seconds to pilfer a giant pile of bodies. And in many cases, those extra few seconds can be very rewarding! I've horked more

Jah's than have dropped off kills.

Zero187 wrote: 2 years ago

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

If this is true, there will be a lot more hork barbs leeching in public CS runs. Hopefully they bring along maxxed BO. If it wasn't so mind-numbingly boring, I would consider doing it myself.

It's true. Tried, tested and found in the code. Not really debatable at this point. The question is, will Blizz keep it in there?

As for mind-numbingly boring, I think you're exaggerating a bit. Throw a HOTO or 2 on your weapon swap for 40-80% FCR, and BAM, horking speed nearly doubled, only takes an extra few seconds to pilfer a giant pile of bodies. And in many cases, those extra few seconds can be very rewarding! I've horked more

Jah's than have dropped off kills.

By boring, I was referring to the bottom-feeders that join CS runs and hork bodies while the game creator is killing everything 2-3 screens off. It's probably lucrative and effective.

My Horker got a respec after reading this thread, 20 Points on

Find Potion, 1 on

Find Item (therefore it was vice versa) and we did a few (10+)

Travincal-Runs.

The outcome is much, much better then before, especially with 400+ MF - all that yellow stuff, that swings out of the bodies.

Amazing and real fun!

I now must try this. Barb is my favorite character this put another level of excitement for me.

Respec'd into this build and can confirm after some runs, the results do seem better and I've only got 11 hard points into

Find Potion.

Very interesting. With this discovery I may have to give my Lvl 94 MF Conc Barb a reset.

Also with this discovery - the value of

Heart Carver just shot up a decent amount. Whether this was intentional or not, I hope they don’t fix it. For … obvious reasons

Not sure if one of you are Klenkogi in our Discord D2 Sanctuary, but yes this was also discussed and tested and confirmed.

See quote below and Google sheet he/she put together:

Find Potion is a hidden 1% synergy towards "

Find Item".

At a certain skill level it makes more sense to put points into

Find Potion rather than

Find Item because of the diminishing returns.

The sweet spot is lvl 16

Find Item with lvl 20

Find Potion for 69%

Find Item Find Potion Calculations

Per the above, he found that lvl16

Find Item and lvl 20

Find Potion yields the perfect breakpoints

Th3ory wrote: 2 years ago

Per the above, he found that lvl16

Find Item and lvl 20

Find Potion yields the perfect breakpoints

What's perfect about 69%?

In terms of skill point allocation between the synergy and the skill, putting points in the skill already falls below 1% at level 13. After that, the synergy adds more.

As for trade-offs with other skill allocation and opportunity costs, that's going to largely be build and playstyle dependent.

I feel like I'm missing some factors here in how 20/16 was determined to be 'perfect'.

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

Th3ory wrote: 2 years ago

Per the above, he found that lvl16

Find Item and lvl 20

Find Potion yields the perfect breakpoints

What's perfect about 69%?

Tagging him in here - @PenguinGrenadier

Just caught up with him and again this will be relatively subjective to each individual, but it has to do with diminishing returns (cost/benefit analysis). You can keep pumping points, but in their testing/calculus they found this to be the ideal strike-zone

If he decides to chime in here he can provide more mathematical technical details

Th3ory wrote: 2 years ago

Tagging him in here - @PenguinGrenadier

Just caught up with him and again this will be relatively subjective to each individual, but it has to do with diminishing returns (cost/benefit analysis). You can keep pumping points, but in their testing/calculus they found this to be the ideal strike-zone

If he decides to chime in here he can provide more mathematical technical details

Thanks for inviting them to the conversation.

In terms of the marginal gains of chance per skill point expenditure from the table:

Up until 13 points in

Find Item, investing there makes sense. After level 13, focusing on the synergy

Find Potion gets you more bang per point.

What the 'perfect' trade-off per chance gained/point cost amounts to, will likely be up for everyone to decide for themselves. There are two sections in the optimal skill distribution where clear diminishing returns take place:

Up until level 13

Find Item, where each points nets you less and less until you reach the point where the synergy makes sense and the second stage after you've maxed the synergy and are now getting less than 1% per allocated point.

If D2R rounds down to the nearest integer like they do in many other calculations, then I can see why the 69% might objectively make sense. It's one of the spots in the point distribution where you don't lose out to rounding.

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

Th3ory wrote: 2 years ago

Per the above, he found that lvl16

Find Item and lvl 20

Find Potion yields the perfect breakpoints

What's perfect about 69%?

In terms of skill point allocation between the synergy and the skill, putting points in the skill already falls below 1% at level 13. After that, the synergy adds more.

As for trade-offs with other skill allocation and opportunity costs, that's going to largely be build and playstyle dependent.

I feel like I'm missing some factors here in how 20/16 was determined to be 'perfect'.

There is a diminishing return after 69%. It takes about 2 skill points to move up 1% after this perfect 69%.
Also, note that "commas" in the spreadsheets are equivalent to "decimal points" for us 'Muricans.

zilonka wrote: 2 years ago

There is a diminishing return after 69%. It takes about 2 skill points to move up 1% after this perfect 69%.
Also, note that "commas" in the spreadsheets are equivalent to "decimal points" for us 'Muricans.

There are diminishing returns at for every level

Find Item, not just at level 16, so I'm not sure what your point is. Is it because of a rounding down like I suggested in my subsequent post? Could you elaborate?

Fact:
You can't generalize a "perfect breakpoint", simply because

Find Item has no set breakpoint of no further return.

The higher you get it, the better your chance.
Similarly, assuming that hidden synergy actually does exist, the higher you get

Find Potion, the more that adds as well.

So theoretically, the "best" is 20/20.

"Theoretically" because reality might look different. Depending on the amount of +skill on your gear, you might see no difference between 20 and 19 or even 20, 19 and 18.
At +0, you get an extra percent by going to 20. At +12 on the other hand, you get the same % chance at 20, 19, 18 and 17 hard points. The numerical "best" hence depends entirely on your gear and where your +skill happens to end up.

Adding to that, the rest of your build needs skillpoints. Depending on your build, getting both

Find Potion and

Find Item to 20 might make 0 actual difference in the rest of your performance. Or in another build, it might make a very noticable difference. As a result, the "best amount" also depends on the rest of your build and how much overall performance (i.e. clear speed) you give up for that extra % or two or however many it ends up being.

Basically, that entire discussion about a sweetspot is pointless because that sweetspot will be different for everyone.

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

Basically, that entire discussion about a sweetspot is pointless because that sweetspot will be different for everyone.

Yeah, how many points you place into the chance to hork items is subjective and needs to factor in the opportunity cost of doing so. For the creator of the table and their build, it seems to be 21 hard points or more, depending on how they get to 16 in

Find Item. Others may want to invest the full 40.

What is objective however, if the values in the shared table are accurate, is the order in which those points should be placed.

Welcome to Diablo where everything is subjective opinion - Always good to talk through all technical dynamics in the open for all to learn and engage with. Good passionate debate.

Key takeaway is that this seemingly has been stress tested by many who have confirmed its passive existence. The honest question now is was this intended to be hidden within 2.4 GA production push or was it being tested and they overlooked removing as this is not actively reflected in tooltips.

The revolving door of speculation!

If it does remain in the game, barbs should get an S+ tier for farming. For a fraction of a second of extra work, they get close to double the loot of any other character.

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

zilonka wrote: 2 years ago

There is a diminishing return after 69%. It takes about 2 skill points to move up 1% after this perfect 69%.
Also, note that "commas" in the spreadsheets are equivalent to "decimal points" for us 'Muricans.

There are diminishing returns at for every level

Find Item, not just at level 16, so I'm not sure what your point is. Is it because of a rounding down like I suggested in my subsequent post? Could you elaborate?

Up until 69%, it take about 1 point to raise 1% to 2%. Beyond 69%, you start to see that about 2 skill point is needed to raise 1%.

Edit: the "perfect 69%" for me meant as in 69 meme jokes.

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

If it does remain in the game, barbs should get an S+ tier for farming. For a fraction of a second of extra work, they get close to double the loot of any other character.

lmfao - the meta of meta's - S+ in the echelon of its own

Personally love playing barbs, but never made Horkers or anything in this element. But between these quirky updates, especially the viability of throwers now definitely opens up a lot of creativity for player frameworks and theory crafting.

Well that discussion answered initial question. Now I need to get some hole punches in some magic

War Cry weapons to maximize mf/gf

Th3ory wrote: 2 years ago

lmfao - the meta of meta's - S+ in the echelon of its own

Personally love playing barbs, but never made Horkers or anything in this element. But between these quirky updates, especially the viability of throwers now definitely opens up a lot of creativity for player frameworks and theory crafting.

I never thought I'd stoop so low, but I might roll a bottom feeder barb to mindlessly hork bodies in public Chaos/cow runs. It would be like running CS without having to actually kill anything or worry about dying. You just need to stay within a few screens of the mobs that are dying to get exp.

I have to attend a lot of mindless corporate meetings. At least this would keep me somewhat entertained and it's probably very lucrative.