question about bound demon "snapshots"

From reading Reddit, I've gathered, unconvincingly, that bound demons have two "snapshots" that dictate their lives, and for which I'd like to confirm or clarify with you all.

First, there is a snapshot taken upon binding the demon that captures 1) the demon level as the lower of its level and yours (e.g., a T94 Lister bound by a Lvl 92 warlock will become a Lvl 92 Lister), which dictates it's damage and skill levels (e.g., level of Amp Damage from Cursed); 2) the roll of its aura based on this level as mLvl/8--in the example above, the 92/8 Lister gets a Lvl 11 aura; and 3) health snapshot as a combination of Lvl (92 in example above) plus P-modifier, meaning it gets the most health from coming from a P8 game. I believe that is all from the first snapshot, and that becomes its permanent "base stats".

Then comes the second snapshot that happens every time you start a game, where your Demon Skills levels at the start of the game are snapshot onto the demon. E.g., if you start the game with Lvl 31 Bind Demon, then the demon gets the enhancements of Lvl 31 Bind Demon (flat damage + enhanced damage) for the rest of the game. At that point, it doesn't matter if you drop all of your +Demon skills or hit a Skill Shrine, the demon does the same damage **This is what I find most dubious and would like to discuss the mechanics** so, if this "snapshot" were true, gaining a level or equipping/unequipping or Battle Command helps/hurts zilch on your bound demon. That would mean you could load your inventory with +demon skillers at the end of a game and just swap them out for +Chaos or +eldrich skillers at the start of a new game and PRESTO!, super strong demon and super strong warlock.

Is that at all correct? If there is this second snapshot, and the demon isn't altered throughout a game, how does a passive effect like Blood Oath work? Is the passive effect snapshot at the beginning, too? Or does this change with skill level modifications like Battle Command?

Interested in feedback from anyone who knows from a more reputable source. Please correct anything that is false in this post. Thanks!!

Don't know it it was patched, but when I bound my demon (end of march) it keeps its original level (L96 - bounded a normal Vile Mother in a L96 Cursed Terror Zone - Bind Demon L20+), even my Warlock being L82 at the time (just after I finished Hell)
I can verify that it has L96 because of the AR bonus its Fanaticism give (95% = L12, that requires monster L96+ -> 12*8 = 96)

Cannot easily verify the health or damage bonus to confirm other snapshots...

Aura level is not always level/8, each aura has a formula:
https://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/m ... onus.shtml

Might (at monlvl/6), Holy Fire (at monlvl/6), Blessed Aim (at monlvl/5), Holy Freeze (at monlvl/7), Holy Shock (at monlvl/8), Conviction (at monlvl/8), and finally Fanaticism (at monlvl/8)

fredkid wrote: 3 months ago

Don't know it it was patched, but when I bound my demon (end of march) it keeps its original level (L96 - bounded a normal Vile Mother in a L96 Cursed Terror Zone - Bind Demon L20+), even my Warlock being L82 at the time (just after I finished Hell)
I can verify that it has L96 because of the AR bonus its Fanaticism give (95% = L12, that requires monster L96+ -> 12*8 = 96)

Cannot easily verify the health or damage bonus to confirm other snapshots...

Aura level is not always level/8, each aura has a formula:
https://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/m ... onus.shtml

Might (at monlvl/6), Holy Fire (at monlvl/6), Blessed Aim (at monlvl/5), Holy Freeze (at monlvl/7), Holy Shock (at monlvl/8), Conviction (at monlvl/8), and finally Fanaticism (at monlvl/8)

This is super helpful. So among the auras we can get, the ones with real breakpoints will be Might (/6), Fanaticism (/8) and *currently Conviction (/8). I think Fire, Freeze and Shock are more for the Cursed procs than anything.

I'm keen to know if the monster level really stays at Terrorized levels and doesn't drop to character level. That'd be great and reason enough to farm Terror zones for demons (Lister, Dark Lancers, Big fatty [Uldars, whatever they're called]). And means I wouldn't have to grind super hard to hit 96 for next aura breakpoint!

Thanks!

Tip: If you warlock is not L94+, you can create the game with a higher level char, then switch to your warlock. The TZ level will keep the level based on the character that creates the game not your warlock (at least until the TZ rotates to a new area, then the level of the new TZ will be based on the current owner of the game)

fredkid wrote: 3 months ago

Tip: If you warlock is not L94+, you can create the game with a higher level char, then switch to your warlock. The TZ level will keep the level based on the character that creates the game not your warlock (at least until the TZ rotates to a new area, then the level of the new TZ will be based on the current owner of the game)

Also good to know! However, this is my first and highest character (since ~2003/2004).
Warlock, Lvl 92, Demon specialized
Druid, Lvl 8, TBD ( Rabies or Fury wolf)

FerociousTerrier wrote: 3 months ago

Then comes the second snapshot that happens every time you start a game, where your Demon Skills levels at the start of the game are snapshot onto the demon. E.g., if you start the game with Lvl 31 Bind Demon, then the demon gets the enhancements of Lvl 31 Bind Demon (flat damage + enhanced damage) for the rest of the game. At that point, it doesn't matter if you drop all of your +Demon skills or hit a Skill Shrine, the demon does the same damage **This is what I find most dubious and would like to discuss the mechanics** so, if this "snapshot" were true, gaining a level or equipping/unequipping or Battle Command helps/hurts zilch on your bound demon. That would mean you could load your inventory with +demon skillers at the end of a game and just swap them out for +Chaos or +eldrich skillers at the start of a new game and PRESTO!, super strong demon and super strong warlock.

This is how necro's Iron Golem works. It is resummoned at the beginning of each game, using the current skill level. So buffing skill level as much as possible when summoning it for the first time is pointless.
You could swap gear at the end of each game, but it'd be extremely tedious, unless you limited it to the simple weapon swap ('W').
Said that, Battle Command (and other buffs applied to allies) is still useful if applied to the demon (I haven't checked that, but it seems logical).

That settles it. I'll just fill my inventory with +demon skillers every time and swap them with +Chaos skillers after starting new games!

Seems silly that your demon can't benefit from things like skill shrines or skill buffs.

Trang Oul wrote: 3 months ago

FerociousTerrier wrote: 3 months ago

Then comes the second snapshot that happens every time you start a game, where your Demon Skills levels at the start of the game are snapshot onto the demon. E.g., if you start the game with Lvl 31 Bind Demon, then the demon gets the enhancements of Lvl 31 Bind Demon (flat damage + enhanced damage) for the rest of the game. At that point, it doesn't matter if you drop all of your +Demon skills or hit a Skill Shrine, the demon does the same damage **This is what I find most dubious and would like to discuss the mechanics** so, if this "snapshot" were true, gaining a level or equipping/unequipping or Battle Command helps/hurts zilch on your bound demon. That would mean you could load your inventory with +demon skillers at the end of a game and just swap them out for +Chaos or +eldrich skillers at the start of a new game and PRESTO!, super strong demon and super strong warlock.

This is how necro's Iron Golem works. It is resummoned at the beginning of each game, using the current skill level. So buffing skill level as much as possible when summoning it for the first time is pointless.
You could swap gear at the end of each game, but it'd be extremely tedious, unless you limited it to the simple weapon swap ('W').
Said that, Battle Command (and other buffs applied to allies) is still useful if applied to the demon (I haven't checked that, but it seems logical).

That is a good point. Perhaps Battle Command adds a level to their Aura.

I would still like to know more about the "second snapshot" mechanism from the people that test these things and know the math (@schnorki ??), because it could make a huge difference in how to play.

I essentially want to know: if I start a game with 10x +1 demon skillers and then move them to the Stash, will the bound demon's damage remain the same or will it drop?

Imagine starting with an inventory full of skillers and then being able to remove them for farming.

I would also like to know if Blood Oath benefits to your demon are snapshot at the beginning of the game or are dynamic, changing with current levels.

Thanks!

Hmm, I don't think I am tagging correctly on this forum. @Schnorki see if it works this time

You rang?

The only part I've actively tested for this myself is based on the aura gain/loss (or lack of loss more accurately).

That is if you have say lvl 10 Bind Demon and then equip gear to push it over 20, your bound demon would gain an aura based on the now lvl 20+ bind.
If you then unequip all of that gear again, your Bind Demon drops back down to lvl 10.
If demon stats are fully rerolled on game creation, based on skill level at that time, that means your demon should lose his aura in the next game.
The aura is however preserved for as long you can keep that demon alive.

So based on that, at least with regards to affix attribution, anything based off of gear is preserved from the time of binding the demon, meaning it is absolutely viable to stack as much +demon skill as possible when you bind your demon and then go back to your normal gear from then on out.

What I haven't tested is to what extent that may or may not also apply to bind's +dmg or the passives in the demon tree. Might be the same. Might not. With Blizz, ya never know.
That part is also annoying AF to test properly so you'd more likely than not instead need someone who actually digs through the files and mechanics behind it to figure it out for sure.

A quick note:
I respecced to a hybrid Demon/Chaos build. Oddly enough, I re-bound a Lister that has the exact addixes as the one that died on respec.

Took all points out of Goat and Death Mark (except the one pt) and put them in Abyss and Miasma Bolt, with the remaining points (13, I think) going to misma chain instead of Blood Oath.

Objective is to still have a strong demon as my main attacker with support from Abyss and Miasma Bolt ( Miasma Chain seem like a lot of work).

Loss of max Death Mark doesn't seem to have made a huge difference. It seems like a total of ~40 damage lost, which is just a fraction of the damage boost from Bind Demon and Demonic Mastery.

All to say, I still don't know much about the mechanism of bound demons, but I'll try to do some qualitative testing with this new build.

Schnorki wrote: 3 months ago

That part is also annoying AF to test properly so you'd more likely than not instead need someone who actually digs through the files and mechanics behind it to figure it out for sure.

Someone else did an amazing job checking many (but not all, naturally) quirks of various Warlock skills.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gtM ... WE6fUdVg6Y

• When joining a new game, demon is resummoned at the Bind Demon level you have at game start.
• When bound on players 8, they retain their boosted stats, even if the player count changes or you go to a new game. However, bound demons do not benefit from the extra attack rating and damage of higher player counts, only extra life.

That's all regarding snapshotting, though. I'd assume that most stats which benefit from skills are re-calculated each game, and only those innate to the demon itself (like level) are retained.

Said that, I wouldn't do extensive tests now, since Patch 3.2 is around the corner with its massive changes, and may change the existing mechanics completely.

Trang Oul wrote: 3 months ago

Schnorki wrote: 3 months ago

That part is also annoying AF to test properly so you'd more likely than not instead need someone who actually digs through the files and mechanics behind it to figure it out for sure.

Someone else did an amazing job checking many (but not all, naturally) quirks of various Warlock skills.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gtM ... WE6fUdVg6Y

• When joining a new game, demon is resummoned at the Bind Demon level you have at game start.
• When bound on players 8, they retain their boosted stats, even if the player count changes or you go to a new game. However, bound demons do not benefit from the extra attack rating and damage of higher player counts, only extra life.

That's all regarding snapshotting, though. I'd assume that most stats which benefit from skills are re-calculated each game, and only those innate to the demon itself (like level) are retained.

Said that, I wouldn't do extensive tests now, since Patch 3.2 is around the corner with its massive changes, and may change the existing mechanics completely.

Thanks, that is great info--read some of that elsewhere in the forumverse.

As presumed, it seems that the bound demon's benefit from Bind Demon (flat damage modifier/+%damage) is fixed at time of spawning in a new game. But, presumably again, the Demonic Mastery buff to your demon is dynamic, not static (big assumption, but the linked document doesn't talk about Demonic Mastery and only mentions Bind Demon level at game spawn).

So, it likely isn't the situation where you just have an inventory full of Demon skillers that you then swap out for Chaos or Eldrich skillers at the start of a new game, because you would lose the benefit of each skill point in Demonic Mastery (and Death Mark, Blood Oath, etc).

I don't know how much damage that translates to in real play. Each point lost in Demonic Mastery is 10% damage (I don't know if that is applied to the demon's base attack + Bind Demon flat damage/%damage modifier or just the demon's base damage). If the goal is strongest demon possible, I would imagine that keeping those Demon skillers is important.

One thing that could potentially be useful is using a Void +3 Bind Demon Kris and Splendor+3 Bind Demon book at the start of a game that you could then swap for Obsession/Ars afterwards. That would give you +3 Bind Demon skills at the start of game vs Obession/Ars... Or +2 if you use Mang Song.

Like you said though, all of these points might be moot if the patch changes the mechancs (or makes Bind Demon unplayable).

P.s., I appreciated the detail on other skill trees as well but was disappointed that nothing was discussed about Enhanced Entropy, which I understand only has any value with hard points, not soft points.