Druids suck - convince me I'm wrong!

Necrarch wrote: 1 day ago

Was about to suggest another proc based build to make it somehow fun, but based on Destruction (with Fury perhaps) instead of

Stormlash.

Some guides exist - but you'll make a better build yourself.

Or try something that does not exist with a Rift polearm ?!

As much as I like your thinking, this won't wort. :/
Rift does not have any ed. So instead of hitting with a wet towel, you'll be hitting with a large wet towel.

And Destruction, well... it is visually appealing. But not good.

Schnorki wrote: 1 day ago

Eremes wrote: 1 day ago

Elemental Fury Autocast Hybrid build (around

Stormlash).
Weapon:

Shael'ed/Jeweled

Stormlash
Offhand:

Stormshield or Phoenix, tho I prefer upped

Stormchaser for additional

Tornado procs.
Armor: Fortitude/Enigma for swap
Headgear: +3

Twister/

Tornado/

Hurricane,

Jalal's Mane also fits good here if no better options.
Gloves:

Laying of Hands

Boots:

Gore Rider/

War Traveler, up to your purposes

Belt: Nosferatu for IAS BP, or Verdungo's
Rings:

Carrion Wind for

Twister procs,

Raven Frost (optional if you're rich and can afford

Cham'ed headgear, if yes - Bul'Katos then)
Amulet:

Highlord's Wrath.
Some Elemental skillers are needed for this build. Also, -physical res

Renewed Bone Break, as well as pre-RoTW

Crack of the Heavens do wonderful things to your DPS.

Max out Fury, 10 Lycantrophy, 10

Werewolf.
The rest goes to Elemental skills for synergy:
20

Twister
20

Cyclone Armor
20

Hurricane
Remaining points go to

Tornado.

Hurricane sports strong CC aura
In terms of fun this build shines. Also can clear areas/both ubers really good (with some gear swap/pre-buffing). Reaper's Toll on your merc buff that damage even further.

Much as proc-builds tend to usually be pretty bad at best, that is the only idea so far I haven't already pursued (multiple times in most cases) so...gonna have to look into that one/expand on the idea.

Let us know what you think afterwards. I'm doubtful but haven't tried it either. If you like it, I'd give it a shot.
I considered a

Hurricane wolf in the past but discarded the idea because there are too many skills/synergies not maxed out.

Behold the staying power of Diablo 2! Twenty years later still generating pages of debate on build trade-offs to make Blizzard's bastard stepchild character class a bit better.

vued wrote: 1 day ago

Schnorki wrote: 1 day ago

Eremes wrote: 1 day ago

Elemental Fury Autocast Hybrid build (around

Stormlash).
Weapon:

Shael'ed/Jeweled

Stormlash
Offhand:

Stormshield or Phoenix, tho I prefer upped

Stormchaser for additional

Tornado procs.
Armor: Fortitude/Enigma for swap
Headgear: +3

Twister/

Tornado/

Hurricane,

Jalal's Mane also fits good here if no better options.
Gloves:

Laying of Hands

Boots:

Gore Rider/

War Traveler, up to your purposes

Belt: Nosferatu for IAS BP, or Verdungo's
Rings:

Carrion Wind for

Twister procs,

Raven Frost (optional if you're rich and can afford

Cham'ed headgear, if yes - Bul'Katos then)
Amulet:

Highlord's Wrath.
Some Elemental skillers are needed for this build. Also, -physical res

Renewed Bone Break, as well as pre-RoTW

Crack of the Heavens do wonderful things to your DPS.

Max out Fury, 10 Lycantrophy, 10

Werewolf.
The rest goes to Elemental skills for synergy:
20

Twister
20

Cyclone Armor
20

Hurricane
Remaining points go to

Tornado.

Hurricane sports strong CC aura
In terms of fun this build shines. Also can clear areas/both ubers really good (with some gear swap/pre-buffing). Reaper's Toll on your merc buff that damage even further.

Much as proc-builds tend to usually be pretty bad at best, that is the only idea so far I haven't already pursued (multiple times in most cases) so...gonna have to look into that one/expand on the idea.

Let us know what you think afterwards. I'm doubtful but haven't tried it either. If you like it, I'd give it a shot.
I considered a

Hurricane wolf in the past but discarded the idea because there are too many skills/synergies not maxed out.

Figured while I'm at it, I'll just go ahead and try both, the

Stormlash and the Destruction version.

Added carrion winds and whatnot to the

Stormlash for some twisters on top of the

Tornado. And added Phoenix to the Destruction version to go full ape on the fire procs beyond just torch. In hindsight, could've added

Hellmouth to that as well, kinda forgot those even existed, but at 4% they wouldn't make too much of a difference I guess.

As far as proc builds go, they're actually both surprisingly performant (and roughly comparable to one another), allowing for P8 TZ96 clears without major issues. Though they're still nowhere near what "real" builds do, obviously. I will say the Destruction version is significantly more visually appealing than the

Stormlash one and at times almost reminiscent of a Mosaic sin (in visuals only, obv. not in performance).

At the end of the day though, both are still just Fury builds and once the "screen full of fire!" novelty wears off they quickly suffer the same fate of utter boredom as any other Fury build (subjective, naturally).

Ok, how to put this...?
My Wind druid is at lvl 98.20 and yeah, I see, why other classes are preferred. But still, I think it was the class with which I had most fun when LoD came out. And boy, THAT was clunky and ... To get to

Armageddon you had to have a point in every skill of the whole Wind tree... What a waste!

But this build depends extremely on gear. Since I have an Enigma it's a total different play style. Therefore I switch sometimes to somewhat non-Enigma and there's the problem: No real fast movement... No

Charge, no

Teleport, no

Leap etc.

And yeah, aiming is like lottery XD

I know you want me to convince you that you are wrong but I agree this is the class I have the least amount of play time with. I like the concept of druids super cool fits in Sanctuary world. The viable builds just seem to underperform by a wide margin compared to the other classes. There are just better options generally Fury wolf is a worse smiter and the elemental builds just don't compare to sorc builds and summoning you can do necro or warlock now(still OPAF) and get summons who actually attack good. How hard would it be to do an AI rework on druid summons these days? I wish you could

Teleport around and cast elemental spells as a wolf or bear one can Dream. That would probably be OP but I mean have you played the warlock come on Blizzard just buff the druid up rework the skills like

Arctic Blast come on now you can do better than that.

Fury Druids in 1.09d....?

Fury Druid was my first character that cleared normal without dying once and convinced me to try hardcore. The good thing about it is that you can tweak it for different effects. There have been some chance to cast proc builds posted. One of my works in progress is Fury with two Phoenix and maxed synergies. Somebody mentioned

Stormlash, but there is also

Windhammer for lots of crushing blow and twisters and much cheaper than Destruction.

Playstyle is not that different than a zealer or a smiter, so if those are not too boring, then a Fury wolf with the extra fireworks could be something to try.

Total agree, especially when it comes to the comparison with the warlock who is a fire AoE or physical caster but stronger (and has more accurate spells), has mighty summons and better synergies... The thing that distinguishes the druid from him is basically shape shifting which is also a little bit clunky. A teleporting

Werewolf with

Hurricane or

Armageddon? Where do I have to sign? XD

(I'm thinking about to build a shape shifting druid somewhat in the future. With Doom and facets plus

Protector's Frost that would give you at least some cold AoE...)

KillingestGOLDENAK47 wrote: 1 day ago

I know you want me to convince you that you are wrong but I agree this is the class I have the least amount of play time with. I like the concept of druids super cool fits in Sanctuary world. The viable builds just seem to underperform by a wide margin compared to the other classes. There are just better options generally Fury wolf is a worse smiter and the elemental builds just don't compare to sorc builds and summoning you can do necro or warlock now(still OPAF) and get summons who actually attack good. How hard would it be to do an AI rework on druid summons these days? I wish you could

Teleport around and cast elemental spells as a wolf or bear one can Dream. That would probably be OP but I mean have you played the warlock come on Blizzard just buff the druid up rework the skills like

Arctic Blast come on now you can do better than that.

You know guys, I think part of the problem here is that all characters and builds are compared to OP Warlock or Mosaicsin or whatever who can easily handle p8 TZ96 and whatnot.

Think about playing an RPG (even a table game) in a team as a healer. All s/he can do is heal others. Does it suck? On her/his own, yes. But maybe the team just cannot progress without a healer. S/he has a lot of value for the team.

Not all characters need to be able to clear p8 TZ96 fast...
You can say it sucks if that's what you want, but it is still a lot of fun for guys like me who do play D2R in a team...
I don't think that Druid also has to be made super-OP, but yes, please devs at least allow wolf and bear cast all spells and use all skills (e.g., for Wolf-Barb) without limitation...

Wind druid is viable in PvP.

Druids turn into fluffy balls of rage.

You can close the thread now.

DarkSoul48 wrote: 9 hours ago

You know guys, I think part of the problem here is that all characters and builds are compared to OP Warlock or Mosaicsin or whatever who can easily handle p8 TZ96 and whatnot.

Think about playing an RPG (even a table game) in a team as a healer. All s/he can do is heal others. Does it suck? On her/his own, yes. But maybe the team just cannot progress without a healer. S/he has a lot of value for the team.

Not all characters need to be able to clear p8 TZ96 fast...
You can say it sucks if that's what you want, but it is still a lot of fun for guys like me who do play D2R in a team...
I don't think that Druid also has to be made super-OP, but yes, please devs at least allow wolf and bear cast all spells and use all skills (e.g., for Wolf-Barb) without limitation...

Agree to disagree.

Or at least in my personal case.
True, a lot of people go "it ain't meta so it sucks!". But for me, that's nowhere near a requirement. If it was, I wouldn't merrily be playing every single other class and mostly in "not the meta build for that class". But even compared to mediocre builds of other non-meta classes, druids tend to fall to the wayside. All while D2 as a whole is generally so easy that "needs teamwork" just isn't a thing, making that classic healer archetype comparison a bit flawed.

Either way, I don't need my builds to plow through P8 TZ96 solo in record time, they just shouldn't completely fail and take an hour to clear

The Den of Evil either. But more than anything, I do need them to be fun to play which should the the point of literally anything in any game and which - subjective as that obviously is - druids just aren't, hence this topic.
My personal approach is really just "find the build that is (subjectively) the most entertaining build the class has to offer and then start theorycrafting the hell out of it to make that work to the highest degree possible". Works for everything but druids for me but they still don't make it past step 1 in that approach. :/

Schnorki wrote: 5 hours ago

DarkSoul48 wrote: 9 hours ago

You know guys, I think part of the problem here is that all characters and builds are compared to OP Warlock or Mosaicsin or whatever who can easily handle p8 TZ96 and whatnot.

Think about playing an RPG (even a table game) in a team as a healer. All s/he can do is heal others. Does it suck? On her/his own, yes. But maybe the team just cannot progress without a healer. S/he has a lot of value for the team.

Not all characters need to be able to clear p8 TZ96 fast...
You can say it sucks if that's what you want, but it is still a lot of fun for guys like me who do play D2R in a team...
I don't think that Druid also has to be made super-OP, but yes, please devs at least allow wolf and bear cast all spells and use all skills (e.g., for Wolf-Barb) without limitation...

Agree to disagree.

Or at least in my personal case.
True, a lot of people go "it ain't meta so it sucks!". But for me, that's nowhere near a requirement. If it was, I wouldn't merrily be playing every single other class and mostly in "not the meta build for that class". But even compared to mediocre builds of other non-meta classes, druids tend to fall to the wayside. All while D2 as a whole is generally so easy that "needs teamwork" just isn't a thing, making that classic healer archetype comparison a bit flawed.

Either way, I don't need my builds to plow through P8 TZ96 solo in record time, they just shouldn't completely fail and take an hour to clear

The Den of Evil either. But more than anything, I do need them to be fun to play which should the the point of literally anything in any game and which - subjective as that obviously is - druids just aren't, hence this topic.
My personal approach is really just "find the build that is (subjectively) the most entertaining build the class has to offer and then start theorycrafting the hell out of it to make that work to the highest degree possible". Works for everything but druids for me but they still don't make it past step 1 in that approach. :/

I think you got my example wrong (and of course you are exaggerating with your

Den of Evil example). I did not say that D2R needed teamplay, I just said that this is how we prefer to play because this is much more fun for us, and Druid has a really appreciated place in that. I don't think anyone ever complains either if a Druid joins a public game to bring along his army, maxed

Oak Sage to boost everyone, and at the same time he can tank (even if others do most of the killing). But no worries if you still think Druid sucks for you - we still enjoy playing our Druids very much, and I am fine with others having a different opinion
This might also be a case when we won't ever convince each other...

@Schnorki What's wrong with

Fissure Druid?

You said you played all common builds, so I guess you did him as well?

I'd say it's a solid one and the strongest Druid for sure. Lots of micro management and has its own style. If such a Druid joins the Battle, others can't ignore him.

DarkSoul48 wrote: 3 hours ago

[..]
I think you got my example wrong (and of course you are exaggerating with your

Den of Evil example). I did not say that D2R needed teamplay, I just said that this is how we prefer to play because this is much more fun for us, and Druid has a really appreciated place in that. I don't think anyone ever complains either if a Druid joins a public game to bring along his army, maxed

Oak Sage to boost everyone, and at the same time he can tank (even if others do most of the killing). But no worries if you still think Druid sucks for you - we still enjoy playing our Druids very much, and I am fine with others having a different opinion
This might also be a case when we won't ever convince each other...

I'm inclined to say we just play in rather different contexts.

My lowest real char is 96 so I don't find myself in "non-endgame" situations really. And at that point, in basically any group scenario, be it organized or pugs, there's always at least one, usually more people with a build that will easily and reliably clear the entire screen on any player count, before any form of tanking or

Oak Sage life boost makes any difference whatsoever. Sometimes, depending on the class I'm on, that's me making others obsolete. At other times, that's others making something like my druid completely useless. There simply is no real team play at that stage, there is merely a carry or two and the "useless folks" following along (or in some cases struggling to even follow along, thanks to crap tele speed).

And while instant mass slaughter does have its own entertainment value, I do indeed often miss the olden days, decades and patches ago (pre-runewords and whatnot), when things were indeed still harder and somewhat more team-oriented as a result.

Really the only exception to that these days is day 1 or 2 of a new ladder for that first play-through. But even then there tends to already be certain classes just doing all the work while the others mainly watch.

That said, I'll happily not convince you. That's not my goal. Quite the opposite, I'd love to be the one who is convinced. That's the point of this topic after all, that feint sliver of hope that somewhere, somehow, there is that one elusive subjectively fun druid build after all that I simply managed to miraculously miss for some 20+ years and that someone else managed to conjure up. Not necessarily some "annihilates P8 TZ96" build but simply an "actually fun and merely not complete and utter garbage" build.

DasNarf wrote: 1 hour ago

@Schnorki What's wrong with

Fissure Druid? [..]

Same as most of them, just not fun to play imo.

Schnorki wrote: 1 hour ago

DarkSoul48 wrote: 3 hours ago

[..]
And while instant mass slaughter does have its own entertainment value, I do indeed often miss the olden days, decades and patches ago (pre-runewords and whatnot), when things were indeed still harder and somewhat more team-oriented as a result.

Ah, back in LAN party days, when a group of us would sit in the same dorm room screaming as lightning

Bolts flew across the screen and red player bodies littered the mini-maps. Back then Gloams were ridiculous fun. They're still terrifying, but not like then when we were all naked trying and failing to get to our bodies.

Yeah, I get your points Schnorki. You know, my opinion is heavily influenced by the fact that playing alone (meaning: not with family or real-life friends) whatever game sucks for me - and very often we play table games/sport in real life rather than D2R. If no one is available, I rather do something else (in real life) than play. As a result, our highest character is only 96 because we tend to stop playing most of them around hitting 90-94, even though we have several builds that I tried and easily and safely solo'd p8 TZ96

Chaos Sanctuary, Waves+

Baal, p8 T5 Heralds etc (easy to try now that all-TZ96 p8 games are usually available).

You know, perhaps one of the reasons why playing our Druid builds is fun for us because turning into a

Werewolf and biting things around with these animations and sounds feels cool
makes me think of movies such as

Werewolf by Night and Prisoner of Azkaban, but if you don't get the vibe then it may not work

FerociousTerrier wrote: 54 minutes ago

Schnorki wrote: 1 hour ago

DarkSoul48 wrote: 3 hours ago

[..]
And while instant mass slaughter does have its own entertainment value, I do indeed often miss the olden days, decades and patches ago (pre-runewords and whatnot), when things were indeed still harder and somewhat more team-oriented as a result.

Ah, back in LAN party days, when a group of us would sit in the same dorm room screaming as lightning

Bolts flew across the screen and red player bodies littered the mini-maps. Back then Gloams were ridiculous fun. They're still terrifying, but not like then when we were all naked trying and failing to get to our bodies.

I did not have a chance to try this back in the dorm because our gang was playing online text adventure games (had those green text monitors initially), hotseat Civilization, Age of Empires, etc, but we recently started classic mode (and thus self-found) characters, and it surely feels much more challenging...