FoH / Holy Bolt and -enemy magic resistance

The bolts from

Fist of the Heavens and

Holy Bolt ignore the enemy magic resistance of undead and demons and can even kill magic immune monster like

Achmel the Cursed.
Is the damage of the bolts affected by -enemy magic resistance from items like

Gheed's Wager,

Hellwarden's Will,

Sling ring or

Guardian's Light or is -enemy magic resistance pointless since the magic resistance is ignored?

Holy

Bolts deal MAGIC DAMAGE and because of this if you have -% to Enemy magic resistance stacked up, it will cause the

Bolts function better as far as I am aware.

I could be wrong, please someone smarter do correct my error if this is the case.

According to the amazon basin

Holy Bolt and

Fist of the Heavens bolts "magic damage is applied as though undead have MR 0%, even when Immune to Magic [...] but it does not pierce demon Magic Resist and Immune to Magic demons take no damage (Pit Lords in the

Furnace of Pain and

Tristram are the only Immune to Magic demons in the unmodified game)."

So -enemy magic resist should increase the damage against demons.

atari wrote: 2 months ago

According to the amazon basin

Holy Bolt and

Fist of the Heavens bolts "magic damage is applied as though undead have MR 0%, even when Immune to Magic [...] but it does not pierce demon Magic Resist and Immune to Magic demons take no damage (Pit Lords in the

Furnace of Pain and

Tristram are the only Immune to Magic demons in the unmodified game)."

So -enemy magic resist should increase the damage against demons.

This is my understanding. I played a lot of FoH when they first introduced changes to it in D2R, testing in different areas and situations, and concluded exactly as you have above. I haven't tested with -enemy magic resist but in theory this should work against demons.

This'd require some specific testing.

Back in the day, there was no need to ever confirm/deny that one, simply because -magic res didn't really exist. So

Bolts "acting as though it was 0" were just that with no corner cases to really worry about.

Today though, now that -magic res is finally available, it actually matters and that previously irrelevant question is a valid one. Could be that they simply hard-coded it as effectively 0. Could also be that they coded it the same way that sunders work, too except setting the starting res to 0 as opposed to a sunder's 95. Prior to -magic res gear, both approaches would've yielded the same result as it'd simply always be 0. Now, the first would still leave it at 0 and that's it while the second would set it to 0 and then allow -res to apply on top of that.

But unless someone's specifically tested that, you won't find an answer here I'm afraid. And you more likely than not won't find a reliable (if any) answer in any of the old references as there was simply never a need to look at that back in the day.

Yeah EMR on Holy

Bolts just works against Demons as

Holy Bolt ignores Undead MR entirely and EMR items cannot reduce this below zero because it bypasses this entire step (it doesn't modify it to 0% - otherwise you'd rightfully assume any res modification function can simply incorporate EMR during a calculation).

Or in simpler terms: a magic immune undead is seen as a normal undead - the game doesn't even read how much magic resistance any undead even have when calculating

Holy Bolt damage - and therefore any magic res modifiers aren't applied to a target which isn't read for magic res at all.

EMR also can't break a demon immunity on its own tho (Sunder required)

D369 wrote: 1 week ago

Yeah EMR on Holy

Bolts just works against Demons as

Holy Bolt ignores Undead MR entirely and EMR items cannot reduce this below zero because it bypasses this entire step (it doesn't modify it to 0% - otherwise you'd rightfully assume any res modification function can simply incorporate EMR during a calculation).

Or in simpler terms: a magic immune undead is seen as a normal undead - the game doesn't even read how much magic resistance any undead even have when calculating

Holy Bolt damage - and therefore any magic res modifiers aren't applied to a target which isn't read for magic res at all.

EMR also can't break a demon immunity on its own tho (Sunder required)

Do you have a reference for the game engine bypassing the EMR calculation for Undead with

Holy Bolt? From what I've read, including the Amazon Basin link @atari posted, the game ignores any magic resistance an enemy might have - effectively treating the damage calculation step like they had 0% magic resistance since that is the default magic resistance value. Meaning that -EMR would be effective for Undead.
It does appear for D2R that your interpretation of the calculation sequence is correct for Demons.

https://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/index.php/Holy_Bolt

In LoD

Bolts only damage hostile undead and pierces their Magic Resist; magic damage is applied as though undead have MR 0%, even when Immune to Magic. They will not damage demons or animals.

In D2R

Bolts also damage hostile demons in addition to undead, but it does not

Pierce demon Magic Resist and Immune to Magic demons take no damage (Pit Lords in the

Furnace of Pain and

Tristram are the only Immune to Magic demons in the unmodified game).

I can guess that

Holy Bolt have welded in part of

Sanctuary Aura , which pears undead immunity and is make sense by name of skill . And i dont see any reason why would blizzard hard code magic damage to constant value since it would provide extra work while magic damage type work well as common preset . Safety crafted shield with 10% magic resist exist quite long so interaction with magic damage is same as other damage type

Knappogue wrote: 11 hours ago

From what I've read, including the Amazon Basin link @atari posted, the game ignores any magic resistance an enemy might have - effectively treating the damage calculation step like they had 0% magic resistance since that is the default magic resistance value. Meaning that -EMR would be effective for Undead.
It does appear for D2R that your interpretation of the calculation sequence is correct for Demons.

https://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/index.php/Holy_Bolt

In LoD

Bolts only damage hostile undead and pierces their Magic Resist; magic damage is applied as though undead have MR 0%, even when Immune to Magic. They will not damage demons or animals.

In D2R

Bolts also damage hostile demons in addition to undead, but it does not

Pierce demon Magic Resist and Immune to Magic demons take no damage (Pit Lords in the

Furnace of Pain and

Tristram are the only Immune to Magic demons in the unmodified game).

I also wondered about this and I actually came to the opposite conclusion after reading the same source. I read "magic damage is applied as though undead have MR 0%" as if it will be true after any modifications to the monster's MR has taken place. If I lower a monster's MF to -15% due to my gear, then the calculation will be as if it had 0% MR - so no effect of minus resist gear. But it will depend on the exact implementation in the game, so I guess we need testing.

Btw I found a youtuber who claims to have tested and concluded that the holy

Bolts from FoH are not affected by -MR, but I don't find the evidence he presents conclusive:

From reading different discussions about it my current understanding is that bolts from

Fist of the Heavens do currently not benefit from +magic skill damage nor -enemy magic resistance.
However for

Holy Bolt it is as following:
If someone has tested it and knows more please correct me.

atari wrote: 7 hours ago

From reading different discussions about it my current understanding is that bolts from

Fist of the Heavens do currently not benefit from +magic skill damage nor -enemy magic resistance.
However for

Holy Bolt it is as following:

Holy Bolt	+magic dmg	-enemy magic res
undead	yes	only if it is enough to reach negative values
demon	yes	yes, but cannot break immunity

If someone has tested it and knows more please correct me.

Holy Bolt and

Holy Bolt part of foh BOTH benefit from + magic skill dmg but - enemy magic resist does NOT benefit them in both spells the holy

Bolts bypass enemy magic immunities so no need for a sunder. max dmg i was able to get with bis gear is around 12-14k

Holy Bolt and around 5.9k foh (

Holy Bolt part) , wich is okaaay i guess but its still kinda bad because

Fireball sorc can deal 24k and - eneym fire resist can compesate for the fire resist enemies have if they have. also the restriction of

Holy Bolt on who it damages makes it an overall worse

Fireball sorc gameplay style , and foh (

Holy Bolt part) damage is not nearly enough to spam foh and let the

Holy Bolt spreading do the work (on p8 tz).

Knappogue wrote: 11 hours ago

Do you have a reference for the game engine bypassing the EMR calculation for Undead with

Holy Bolt?

There’s no “bypass” happening with EMR on undead — undead simply don’t use Magic Resist at all for

Holy Bolt.
Undead always count as 0% MR, even if they’re listed as Magic Immune.
So EMR can’t enter the calculation for them because there’s nothing to modify.

Amazon basin is sometimes ambiguous and blends together rules from pre AND post patch, which is why the wording can look contradictory. The quotes that matter and explain all of this are from these pages:

Fist of the Heavens: "Holy

Bolts only damage undead, and

Pierce their Magic Resist: magic damage is applied as though undead have MR 0%, even when Immune to Magic."

Holy Bolt: "In D2R

Bolts also damage hostile demons in addition to undead, but it does not

Pierce demon Magic Resist and Immune to Magic demons take no damage (Pit Lords in the

Furnace of Pain and

Tristram are the only Immune to Magic demons in the unmodified game)."

As you can see from the

Holy Bolt page is demons aren't naturally pierced by HB because their magic res is respected - otherwise HB would just automatically work the same as it does for Undead - but it doesn't. Once HB reads magic res - it brings their resistance and/or immunity into the damage calculation - and EMR then modifies that.

+Magic Skill damage is never read by HB because HB doesn't have a magic skill damage multiplier hook to begin with.

The only extra-weird behavior is the Immune Pit Lords in Ubers. They're magic immune demons so they would take 0 damage, which FOH HB correctly does (zero damage), while a direct HB actually applies damage. This is a unique exception for just these targets and doesn't reflect the normal rules.

Thank you @NaglFarfar @atari and @D369 for the clarification and the interpretation. It always surprises me how differently people can interpret the same couple of sentences.

For the sake of clarification for myself, this is how I'm viewing the interpretations, but I am agreeing with you three that my original view point was not correct. The second and third are the two possible way's I'm understanding what you are saying, both with the same results, just different ways of getting there.

In in incredibly oversimplified process:

My original interpretation:

• Step 1: Look at monster Magic Resistance and treat it like it is 0% (regardless of actual value)
• Step 2: See that Magic Dmg is being applied by player
• Step 3: Apply xx -EMR (enemy monster res is now 0-xx).
• Step 4: Apply total damage

Your interpretation? Maybe?

• Step 1: Look at monster Magic Resistance, apply any -EMR, then treat it like it is 0% (regardless of actual value)
• Step 2: See that Magic Dmg is being applied by player
• Step 3: Apply any -EMR This step in incorporated into Step 1.
• Step 4: Apply total damage

Your interpretation? Maybe?

• Step 1: Look at monster Magic Resistance, see the value is simply not there.
• Step 2: See that Magic Dmg is being applied by player
• Step 3: Apply any -EMR. Can't because the value isn't present so it gets treated like 0%
• Step 4: Apply total damage

I supposed the relevant bit where interpretation/assumption matters is "at what point in the dmg calculation does the game engine set the enemy magic res to 0%". Is it before or after -EMR was applied to the original monster res? And yes, Amazon Basin is clearly ambiguous. But we wouldn't be true D2 players if we didn't get hung up on incredibly minor technicalities, right? Haahaa

I always really do enjoy having conversations like this and having my mind changed.
Cheers guys!

A quick check on Maxroll with bsically no gear and just points in

Holy Bolt and

Fist of the Heavens (and

Holy Shock and

Prayer).

Against

Achmel the Cursed, with sunder charm and hellwardens will with colossus jewel:

Holy Bolt Damage: 1078–1214

Fist of the Heavens:
- Missile Damage: 759–800
- Bolt Damage: 467–480

Without Sunder
-

Holy Bolt Damage: 0

Fist of the Heavens:
- Missile Damage: 759–800
- Bolt Damage: 0

With Sunder without Jeweled Hellwardens:
-

Holy Bolt Damage: 419–472

Fist of the Heavens:
- Missile Damage: 714–755
- Bolt Damage: 193–199

So hellwardens makes a difference, and sunder is needed for this target. I don't know if this helped anybody but throwing it out there.

My takeaway is thus: FoH Paladin with

Griffon's Eye + Thunder Stone > FoH paladin with

Hellwarden's Will + Magic Stone.

And light sunder > magic sunder.

Maxroll could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

departure wrote: 1 hour ago

A quick check on Maxroll with bsically no gear and just points in

Holy Bolt and

Fist of the Heavens (and

Holy Shock and

Prayer).

Against

Achmel the Cursed, with sunder charm and hellwardens will with colossus jewel:

Holy Bolt Damage: 1078–1214

Fist of the Heavens:
- Missile Damage: 759–800
- Bolt Damage: 467–480

Without Sunder
-

Holy Bolt Damage: 0

Fist of the Heavens:
- Missile Damage: 759–800
- Bolt Damage: 0

With Sunder without Jeweled Hellwardens:
-

Holy Bolt Damage: 419–472

Fist of the Heavens:
- Missile Damage: 714–755
- Bolt Damage: 193–199

So hellwardens makes a difference, and sunder is needed for this target. I don't know if this helped anybody but throwing it out there.

You have to test this ingame. Maxroll's d2 planner isn't 100% reliable on such things.

Queegon wrote: 1 hour ago

My takeaway is thus: FoH Paladin with

Griffon's Eye + Thunder Stone > FoH paladin with

Hellwarden's Will + Magic Stone.

And light sunder > magic sunder.

Maxroll could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

I would Temper this to say that you might be right specifically about

Achmel the Cursed. Other targets may not be the same. I already blew away the test so I can't just run back and check, but there are lots of configurations to test in maxroll that any of you can do.