A new appreciation for Faith

Those who have been around for a while and read through the occasional Amazon topic here might recall that I tend to be on the "die hard

Windforce side" of things. But I figured let me depart from that for a minute and give some credit where credit is due.

For one,

Protector's Stone has very much shifted the eternal debate between WF and Faith from "matter of taste, they're too close to ever get a clear winner" to what in every new top-end variation I can come up with so far typically results in "Faith now wins by a decent margin in the all-rounder builds, at least/especially when focusing on multi shot" and "WF utterly crushes Faith in full-on dmg, pure dex builds, especially for

Strafe". Which makes sense I guess, seeing how Faith has a far easier time squeezing in a Stone without giving up too many other things but WF benefits far more from it when you do fit it in as it becomes pure weapon dmg (which then gets further amplified by the extra dex-ed in full dex builds).

For another, theorycrafting aside, the chronicle had me make a new Faith anyways so I figured might as well give the reality of it a go and do some proper shard running with it.

To no surprise, much like WF before it, it completely annihilates any TZ96 mobs that dare stand in range. With the only obvious exception being some higher tier heralds though even those largely drop disturbingly fast to a bowzon. And off-screen if you have the room.

What did surprise me though and I guess what I'm making this post to give some credit for is that I noticed something that I never noticed before as pre-

Herald, mobs just fell over dead too fast for it to ever become a factor:
Those undead Bobs Faith summons are actually crazy good tanks. Just multi-shotting down the adds around a

Herald tends to pop up a handful of them and as it turns out, they can actually full on

Swarm and face tank most T5 heralds:
Only came up against 2 heralds that didn't get "Faith swarmed". One because I got unlucky and not a single one got spawned off the adds. And one that actually rolled so much dmg that it did finally manage to chew through them.

But those two aside, can't help but be genuinely surprised by how good they are at keeping heralds busy so you can shred them in Peace.

Given, I'm still trying to figure out a better way to get WF back into all-rounder builds as well and really the only reason WF doesn't crush Faith across the board with a Stone is that A1 mercs utterly fail at staying in fana range if you try to use those on a proper build but hey, that's a separate topic.

as someone currently discerning between

Windforce and Faith , this is quite helpful! but like you i need to make Faith for my chronicle, so ill probably just try both

I've wanted Faith for over 20 years and finally got one a few weeks ago. I knew it would be an upgrade over Buriza, but holy cow did things melt so much faster. After I got over that surprise, I became quite appreciative of the skeletons. They are so good as tanks and happily block missiles all day. I finally found a Necromancer build I actually like. As an added bonus, they also get the TZ bonus. When it is cursed, the entire screen is cursed which is amusing.

I think you have both setups with BIS equipment.
Which one would you personally prefer right now, and why?

Schnorki wrote: 14 hours ago

Those who have been around for a while and read through the occasional Amazon topic here might recall that I tend to be on the "die hard

Windforce side" of things. But I figured let me depart from that for a minute and give some credit where credit is due.

For one,

Protector's Stone has very much shifted the eternal debate between WF and Faith from "matter of taste, they're too close to ever get a clear winner" to what in every new top-end variation I can come up with so far typically results in "Faith now wins by a decent margin in the all-rounder builds, at least/especially when focusing on multi shot" and "WF utterly crushes Faith in full-on dmg, pure dex builds, especially for

Strafe". Which makes sense I guess, seeing how Faith has a far easier time squeezing in a Stone without giving up too many other things but WF benefits far more from it when you do fit it in as it becomes pure weapon dmg (which then gets further amplified by the extra dex-ed in full dex builds).

For another, theorycrafting aside, the chronicle had me make a new Faith anyways so I figured might as well give the reality of it a go and do some proper shard running with it.

To no surprise, much like WF before it, it completely annihilates any TZ96 mobs that dare stand in range. With the only obvious exception being some higher tier heralds though even those largely drop disturbingly fast to a bowzon. And off-screen if you have the room.

What did surprise me though and I guess what I'm making this post to give some credit for is that I noticed something that I never noticed before as pre-

Herald, mobs just fell over dead too fast for it to ever become a factor:
Those undead Bobs Faith summons are actually crazy good tanks. Just multi-shotting down the adds around a

Herald tends to pop up a handful of them and as it turns out, they can actually full on

Swarm and face tank most T5 heralds:

image.png

Only came up against 2 heralds that didn't get "Faith swarmed". One because I got unlucky and not a single one got spawned off the adds. And one that actually rolled so much dmg that it did finally manage to chew through them.

But those two aside, can't help but be genuinely surprised by how good they are at keeping heralds busy so you can shred them in Peace.

Given, I'm still trying to figure out a better way to get WF back into all-rounder builds as well and really the only reason WF doesn't crush Faith across the board with a Stone is that A1 mercs utterly fail at staying in fana range if you try to use those on a proper build but hey, that's a separate topic.

IIFOXII wrote: 5 hours ago

I think you have both setups with bis equipment.
Which one would you personally prefer right now, and why?
[..]

Honestly, I'm not truly happy with either right now.
Mind you, that's whining from a VERY high bar about some serious first world problems as both, Faith and WF are even better now than they were pre-RotW and both just shred everything.

They both work exceptionally well when properly geared, no question. But I remain determined to find a better way to bring WF back into the all-rounder build. Or to solve the downsides I still see with Faith. Much as I've often enjoyed the pure dex approach in the past, for sharding and higher level heralds, it is kind of insane, as you're looking around too many close corners and any stray

Herald projectile or right-behind-the-door hit will take you out if you don't get lucky on the

Evade.

In the context of shards, at least a bit more life and hence an all-rounder build just makes more sense. And right now, even I am actually going with Faith for that. Until I find a better way to incorporate a stoned WF at least. As is though, every time I go "all-rounder WF", I just end up going "man I wish A1 mercs didn't suck and were actually usable for fana..." which is...depressing.
Plus Faith does currently seem to have the multi-shot Edge in those builds which is a clear priority over

Strafe for

Herald packs.

I did spend way too much time optimizing new barb options though, at the cost of more zon theorycrafting and testing. So there are a handful of variations still pending that I just haven't gotten around to checking yet and that might solve my problems. But the barb is done now so..full steam ahead on the zon optimization!

Schnorki wrote: 5 hours ago

Honestly, I'm not truly happy with either right now.

Precisely, the best

Multiple Shot amazon is my Mist

Colossus Crossbow

Mirrored Blades (blades, yea, right) warlock with 85% crushing blow (fur ubers and summit only) and cursed

Fanaticism hephasto.

Just like the best summon necromancer is my warlock, or the best

Corpse Explosion necromancer my warlock, or the best physical damage dealer being my warlock, or the fastest mosaicsin being my warlock, or the best fire damage sorc/druid being my warlock...

I'm sorry, this probably sounds stupid and I have yet to use a Stone in any build yet.... but how are you using the Stone jewel with Faith - as I know that the ED doesnt work unless used in a weapon.

Ohm and

Jah are most likely harder to get than

Windforce, so theres that tiny weeny thing

c(:

steveodc5 wrote: 3 hours ago

I'm sorry, this probably sounds stupid and I have yet to use a Stone in any build yet.... but how are you using the Stone jewel with Faith - as I know that the ED doesnt work unless used in a weapon.

Since Faith is a RW, you sadly can't put it into the bow directly.
So yes, the bug is costing you the ED if you don't circumvent it.
The flat dmg still gets added though.
But the single most important thing isn't the ED or the flat dmg but the -phys res.

Seems a lot of folks very much underestimate the impact of even 5-10 -res for phys classes. Outside of sunders, all we've ever really had was procs for amp or decrep. And by the time those go off, they're generally not worth it anymore anyways. And 95% res post-sunder was still "way too much". So if you wanted to deal with immunes as a phys dmg dealer (in a timely manner), for many of them, you had to rely on some silly workaround for at least the worst (=most tanky) of immune targets. Such as

Magic Arrow as a 1pt wonder. Sure, it worked, but it was annoying.

Stone alone up to triples that remaining damage as it drops target res from 95 post-sunder to 90-85. A

Renewed Bone Break on top takes you to up to 5x dmg but even without a

Bone Break, Stone alone is enough to take most of the more "immune-vulnerable" phys builds from "use a stupid workaround" to "just plow through".

And even on non-immunes, 10% is actually closer to 20% as many (most?) targets in hell come with an innate ~50% phys res (give or take) that you never were able to do anything about (outside of again procs that take too long). So across the board, for non-immunes, a Stone alone - even for Faith without the ED - is basically roughly a 20% dmg boost as it takes you from "do half dmg" to "do 60% dmg".

It all doesn't sound like much but it does end up very noticeable.

A lot of those targets that used to take 2 multi-shot hits to kill in a TZ96 now also drop down to dying in a single hit, solely thanks to that Stone. And that is a massive difference as in terms of "time to kill", it literally doubles your clear speed. All thanks to a "measly 5-10%".

In WF, the difference is even more pronounced as you get all of the -res goodness plus the Stone's dmg and ED get slapped onto WF which then gets multiplied out by your remaining ED. Sadly, losing the IAS socket in WF makes it a royal pain to still hit your desired breakpoints without sacrificing everything else but the dmg per hit with a Stone is pretty intense.

The same concept holds for barbs and such of course which is why I spent so much time reworking that one and re-optimizing as RotW actually opened up a ton more valid options for melee/phys classes in general.
Plus it holds for magic dmg users who didn't even have the proc option in the past and just always suffered some forced workaround no matter what (man, my Bone necro is happy since RotW ^^).

Schnorki wrote: 2 hours ago

So yes, the bug is costing you the ED.

Not if you get an %ED

Circlet

Queegon wrote: 2 hours ago

Schnorki wrote: 2 hours ago

So yes, the bug is costing you the ED.

Not if you get an %ED

Circlet

Well yeah, if you bypass the bug you bypass the bug.

Queegon wrote: 2 hours ago

Schnorki wrote: 2 hours ago

So yes, the bug is costing you the ED.

Not if you get an %ED

Circlet

Would this actually change anything? The jewel itself has ED% and flat damage, which I thought was what caused the bug.

justinman114 wrote: 1 hour ago

Queegon wrote: 2 hours ago

Schnorki wrote: 2 hours ago

So yes, the bug is costing you the ED.

Not if you get an %ED

Circlet

Would this actually change anything? The jewel itself has ED% and flat damage, which I thought was what caused the bug.

The order matters.

If the base item already has ED on it but no min/max then it essentially evades the bug by putting the ED first.
From what I recall, the same Principle holds for socket order. E.g. if you have an item with multiple sockets and you socket an "ED only" jewel first, you can socket a min or max one after that (which should include a Stone) and it'll work.

Schnorki wrote: 1 hour ago

justinman114 wrote: 1 hour ago

Queegon wrote: 2 hours ago

Not if you get an %ED

Circlet

Would this actually change anything? The jewel itself has ED% and flat damage, which I thought was what caused the bug.

The order matters.

If the base item already has ED on it but no min/max then it essentially evades the bug by putting the ED first.
From what I recall, the same Principle holds for socket order. E.g. if you have an item with multiple sockets and you socket an "ED only" jewel first, you can socket a min or max one after that (which should include a Stone) and it'll work.

Interesting, this is deeper than I thought!