Starting a new thread here as there were some previous ones touching on this, and while a few of us believed that offline (singleplayer) suggested they would only drop on Herald Tier4's and Tier5's this is INCORRECT.
Who can drop Sunders? ALL TIERS - both online and offline.
Do Tier 4's and Tier5's have a better chance? Yes, due to a specific Sunder TC and a "negative pick" - it will have a chance to roll
That said, the fact remains that Sunders still have a high NoDrop and /playercountx is the most important factor in putting yourself in a good position for Tier4 and Tier5 heralds.
Yes, Tier4's and Tier5's are a premium, also quite dangerous for Hardcore, but the higher the player count, the higher the potential.
So how does it work for Tier1 - Tier3? Surprisingly something interesting.
In short, Tier1 - Tier3 DO NOT have a specific Sunder Table. Instead, they translate from a standard Magic GC going through the games "Quality Checks". Just like how it can roll into a Gheeds, it can roll a Sunder. Your personal Magic Find % plays a large roll here naturally as one would expect. /Playercount and thus NoDrop then does not play much of a roll as it relates to hunting a Sunder in this particular instance.
Many of us who were heavily researching this were working with the information we had at the time based on our own mining, but also real world evidence (signal).
More will be coming out on this soon, be on the lookout, but I wanted to get this in the open.
Starting a new thread here as there were some previous ones touching on this, and while a few of us believed that offline (singleplayer) suggested they would only drop on Herald Tier4's and Tier5's this is INCORRECT.
Who can drop Sunders? ALL TIERS - both online and offline.
Do Tier 4's and Tier5's have a better chance? Yes, due to a specific Sunder TC and a "negative pick" - it will have a chance to roll
That said, the fact remains that Sunders still have a high NoDrop and /playercountx is the most important factor in putting yourself in a good position for Tier4 and Tier5 heralds.
Yes, Tier4's and Tier5's are a premium, also quite dangerous for Hardcore, but the higher the player count, the higher the potential.
So how does it work for Tier1 - Tier3? Surprisingly something interesting.
In short, Tier1 - Tier3 DO NOT have a specific Sunder Table. Instead, they translate from a standard Magic GC going through the games "Quality Checks". Just like how it can roll into a Gheeds, it can roll a Sunder. Your personal Magic Find % plays a large roll here naturally as one would expect. /Playercount and thus NoDrop then does not play much of a roll as it relates to hunting a Sunder in this particular instance.
Many of us who were heavily researching this were working with the information we had at the time based on our own mining, but also real world evidence (signal).
More will be coming out on this soon, be on the lookout, but I wanted to get this in the open.
Good work man, I had a suspicion Magic Find played a roll in the new Latent Sunders. Now I need to adjust my Herald Hunting barb to have more MF on him.
Can a T4 or T5 Heraldtechnically drop two Sunders? One for the normal drop table and a second from the special Sunder TC?
Thx mate, again!
For now I have stopped farming Heralds and only go for collecting statues and shards (and kill some lvl1-2 Heralds on the way). Maybe sometime I buy a latent or renewed Sunder Charm. But for my taste, as a casual gamer, it is currently simply too much effort for too less in return...
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Sunder can only drop if the game choose to drop a magic charm from one of the items the Herald drops and decides to make it unique quality (i.e., compete with Gheed's for drop chance).
Magic find DOES have an effect for this.
Player count has NO effect for this.
Tier 4-5:
Sunder can drop if the game choose to drop a magic charm from one of the items the Herald drops and decides to make it unique quality (i.e., compete with Gheed's for drop chance).
Magic find DOES have an effect for this.
Player count has NO effect for this.
Sunder can also drop from a special Sunder Treasure Class, it's a separate drop roll. This has a higher chance of happening than the random magic charm being picked and rolled into unique quality.
Magic find has NO effect on this. (this is exactly like old sunders)
Player count DOES have an effect this.
Correct, @War The Wise?
I'm in CET (Central European Time)
My profile says Ladder, but I play bothLadder and Non-Ladder.
My profile says Softcore, but I play bothSoftcore and Hardcore.
My Holy Grail Tracker is for Offline Hardcore.
Holy Grail Death Count: 1
Not trying to be an ass, though it may sound like it, but merely for the sake of judging the reliability of this correctly and whatnot:
So what's changed? How is your methodology different and (presumably) more reliable now?
After all, you did literally call out Epherno (whoever that is) for not understanding the data mining and claimed drop chance does not change in any way with Herald level. I.e. the exact opposite of what you're saying now. Same for the "no offline t1-3 sunders" bit which is now also a claim of the opposite.
And if sunders then aren't limited to just the specific sunder TC but can also roll from regular unique charms and replace Gheed's, does that still remain limited to heralds or could other high enough (TZ'd?) mobs pass that same roll?
Similarly, is that "random sunder" limited to T1-3 or also available to T4 and 5, meaning 4 and 5 would get an effective "extra chance", one from the sunder table (where MF wouldn't matter) plus one from the regular drops (where MF would matter)?
And lastly, just for good measure, for all of these, is Find Item as usual just a "full repeat kill/drop"? Or is that e.g. somehow removing the T4/5 sunder TC in the process, resulting in more limited odds with it for some reason?
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A lot of valid questions. I think Pavke is working on a detailed report (which I expect that he'll post on Reddit, as per usual), maybe some of the questions will be answered there. He's sitting on a lot of information from having deep-dived into this (not just him ofc), and he's been letting little nuggets slip here and there on Discord. I think he's planning on posting it later today.
I'm in CET (Central European Time)
My profile says Ladder, but I play bothLadder and Non-Ladder.
My profile says Softcore, but I play bothSoftcore and Hardcore.
My Holy Grail Tracker is for Offline Hardcore.
Holy Grail Death Count: 1
(haven't had time to read it myself yet but figured some here might be interested)
I'm in CET (Central European Time)
My profile says Ladder, but I play bothLadder and Non-Ladder.
My profile says Softcore, but I play bothSoftcore and Hardcore.
My Holy Grail Tracker is for Offline Hardcore.
Holy Grail Death Count: 1
(haven't had time to read it myself yet but figured some here might be interested)
"HeraldThorns: aura level = monlvl / 10 (starts at 1% return and increases by 1% for each aura level)"
Really?
That's it?
That's..barely at tickle. :O
And here I was, remembering the days of old, worried about taking my barb against heralds in case they roll Thorns...pshh (only actually found Thorns on my lock so far so..never got to try how much it hurts yet)
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Well, reading through the whole thing, assuming the math isn't too far off, long story short:
"If you want a sunder, get 50+ shards ready and clear the entire game 10+ times and you'll have a decent chance of one...yes...one...good luck having that be the one you actually want".
Or in other, far more motivating and realistic terms:
"If you want a perfect sunder of the correct type, you're gonna need to farm up right around 16 billion shards to clear the entire game 3.2 billion times."
There's a challenge for ya...
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Aside from the terrible sunder rates, I'm finding the shard distribution to be irritating. Ok, we can force shard drops, they are not random. But the only place to get A5 shard is nonTZ Jail and Catacombs. Seriously??
Not trying to be an ass, though it may sound like it, but merely for the sake of judging the reliability of this correctly and whatnot:
So what's changed? How is your methodology different and (presumably) more reliable now?
After all, you did literally call out Epherno (whoever that is) for not understanding the data mining and claimed drop chance does not change in any way with Herald level. I.e. the exact opposite of what you're saying now. Same for the "no offline t1-3 sunders" bit which is now also a claim of the opposite.
And if sunders then aren't limited to just the specific sunder TC but can also roll from regular unique charms and replace Gheed's, does that still remain limited to heralds or could other high enough (TZ'd?) mobs pass that same roll?
Similarly, is that "random sunder" limited to T1-3 or also available to T4 and 5, meaning 4 and 5 would get an effective "extra chance", one from the sunder table (where MF wouldn't matter) plus one from the regular drops (where MF would matter)?
And lastly, just for good measure, for all of these, is Find Item as usual just a "full repeat kill/drop"? Or is that e.g. somehow removing the T4/5 sunder TC in the process, resulting in more limited odds with it for some reason?
The analysis in its entirety is in the wild. I planned on making a video, but he wanted to get it out sooner:
If anything, it further validates that yes, drop rates as expected are indeed brutal.
Good luck to my Hardcore brethren hunting Tier 4's and Tier5's and not dying - vaya on dios.
/PlayerX matters MORE for Tier4 and Tier5 whereas, MF matters more for TIer1 - Tier3.
Shard hunting makes sense as he alluded to in his analysis on amassing the greatest denominator of Heralds, but as I previously highlighted the 2% and 1% remain extremely relevant as the front-door "gate"
I gave up on ladder yesterday and found someone willing to trade me transfered old sunder for all my tradeable junk i had.
Altough the're not even that expensive. In fact much cheaper than I expcted. It's only that I didn't have much "Wealth" on ladder.
Feels like a move against developers intensions, but what can you do.
On nonladder I don't care that much. I would like to have Renewed one in my inventory but it doesn't change anything really if I don't.
I have all old sunders I could ever ask for.
In response.. Lightning Bolt you to the face!
2026: Show me your Hephasto and I'll tell what kind of man you are.
[..]
But the only place to get A5 shard is nonTZ Jail and Catacombs. Seriously??
Yeah, about that.
I probably don't understand something in the reddit post, as I'm both sure I got Northern Shard in Act5 and I'm having way too many Northern Shards to get them randomly from nonTZ Jail and Catacombs, which I run only terrorized.
PS Nice touch on Fetish Shamans. Not long enough I was joking Shaman Herald should spawn second Herald upon Death, but using that mechanic for ire drawing is really smart. I like that.
In response.. Lightning Bolt you to the face!
2026: Show me your Hephasto and I'll tell what kind of man you are.
[..]
But the only place to get A5 shard is nonTZ Jail and Catacombs. Seriously??
Yeah, about that.
I probably don't understand something in the reddit post, as I'm both sure I got Northern Shard in Act5 and I'm having way too many Northern Shards to get them randomly from nonTZ Jail and Catacombs, which I run only terrorized.
PS Nice touch on Fetish Shamans. Not long enough I was joking Shaman Herald should spawn second Herald upon Death, but using that mechanic for ire drawing is really smart. I like that.
Not the only place as in "you can't get them anywhere else" but rather as in "if you get shards anywhere else, more likely than not, they won't be A5 shards as the system is then rigged towards earlier acts".
_____ Please don't add me without reaching out here first. Random friend requests will be declined.
[..]
But the only place to get A5 shard is nonTZ Jail and Catacombs. Seriously??
Yeah, about that.
I probably don't understand something in the reddit post, as I'm both sure I got Northern Shard in Act5 and I'm having way too many Northern Shards to get them randomly from nonTZ Jail and Catacombs, which I run only terrorized.
PS Nice touch on Fetish Shamans. Not long enough I was joking Shaman Herald should spawn second Herald upon Death, but using that mechanic for ire drawing is really smart. I like that.
Do you farm Sewers a lot? Or Lots of NM TZ with clvl 69-72?
If I'm reading and understand Pavke right, only monsters where <=74 mlvl <=77 are able to drop Northern Worldstone Shards. I did check treasureclassex.txt and it appear to confirm this. Since only elites, uniques, superuniques, and Heralds can drop the shards we have a small window to find these.
Monsters:
Elite mlvl = alvl +2
Unique mlvl = alvl +3
Superuniques have their own unique mlvl
Heralds only spawn in a TZ
Areas:
Barracks has an alvl of 70 so even an unique will not reach mlvl74 (alvl70+3=mlvl73)
Starting in Jail Level 1 we see an alvl of 71 so a unique will reach mlvl74 (alvl71+3=mlvl74)
Catacombs Level 4 has an alvl of 74 so the math still works. Mlvl of a unique will be 77 (alvl74+3=mlvl77)
MooMoo Farm has an alvl of 84 so that's way too high.
Next lowest area is Sewers Level 1 and Sewers Level 2 which hav an alvl of 74 so math works just like Catacombs.
Lastly we have Sewers Level 3 and Rocky Waste having an alvl of 75. Here only Elites seem to work since they will have an mlvl of 77 (alvl75+2=mlvl77)
Dry Hills has an alvl of 76 so the math breaks here. Elites will be mlvl78 (alvl76+2=mlvl78)
NOTE: Now maybe there is a way (similar to statues) where a monster can "fail" to roll their primary shard and then drop the next one in line? If so, I'm not finding that language anywhere in Pavke's write up or in the treasureclassex.txt file.
Personally I've found 7x Act1, 5x Act2, 4x Act3, 2x Act4, and 0x Act5 shards.
If I'm reading and understand Pavke right, only monsters where <=74 mlvl <=77 are able to drop Northern Worldstone Shards.
According to Pavke's post, no. Any eligible unique monster can drop any shard (with different weighted probabilities, of course).
The problem is: Shard *TREASURE CLASS* assignment is based on monster level, which, as is known, is based on Area Level (in NM/Hell) and TZ/non-TZ condition (then it depends on Char Level, if TZ).
The problematic issue is how they mapped Shard TC to monster level. For TZ areas, Pavke says:
"When your character is at least level 76, every Elite you found in Terror Zone will be level 81+ and will be dropping their Shards from Act 1 Shard TC."
Act 1 Shard TC has 5/3/3/2/1 rates for Shards 1/2/etc. (Western, Eastern etc). So five times more Act 1 Shards than Act 5.
BTW, the TC names shouldn't confuse you: "Act 1 Shard TC" is just a label for the TC, what really matters is the fact that playing Terror Zones with a character above level 76 will spawn monsters which can only drop from this TC, even if you're playing any other act. So that's what most of us is seeing: a shard drop rate of about 5/3/3/2/1...
For non-TZ playing, then area level is what matters, and as Pavke said, the "best" case for farming Act 5 shards would then be Jail/Catacombs due to their Area level, because monsters here then will be assigned the "Act 5 Shard treasure class" (again just a label), which has the better relative probability for the dropping Act 5 shards (2/2/1/2/5).
Act 1 Shard TC has 5/3/3/2/1 rates for Shards 1/2/etc. (Western, Eastern etc). So five times more Act 1 Shards than Act 5.
This is where it *clicked* for me. Thank you. Since I don't want to get it wrong again/spread mis-information you're saying that when we kill a monster it pulls the treasure class. If the shard TC is not a no drop it will assign a shard in order of described within the TC. That TC is assigned based on the monsters level?
By the way, since the launch of RotW I've only played TZ with Lvl 90+ characters, so *every* Elite/Unique monster I killed has dropped shards from (now I know) the infamous "Act 1 Shard Trease Class". This is how my shards look like currently:
Considering how many Act 1 Shards I've used (more than 10) and how few Act 5 shards I've used (only two or three, I'd say), one can clearly see the skewed probabilities lol (granted it's not a big sample).
If the shard TC is not a no drop it will assign a shard in order of described within the TC. That TC is assigned based on the monsters level?
In short (if I understood your question correctly): yes.
But not "in order" (I don't know what you meant by this)... those are their relative probabilites, when the game's internal RNG matters; no "order" or sequencing involved.
But let me be a bit more verbose:
The "Shard TC" assigned to Elite/Champion monsters is *defined* when they spawn, based on his monster level (which, again, depends on other factors). This is what defines if monster gets a "Act 1 Shard TC", or an "Act 2 Shard TC", etc... this is during monster spawning, not when killed.
Now, when you KILL this monster, the game goes through the usual "item picking" procedure to determine what it will drop (from ALL the tables/TCs that the monster has)...
Assuming you're on /players1 and that you killed, say, a Champion Monster and (due to his mLvl) he's got the "Act 1 Shard TC" on his drop tables, and assuming furthermore that the game rolls a drop FROM THIS Shard TC/Table (the only Shard TC that this specific monster has!), what you get is (according to Pavke's post):
-a 13/6013 chance that *any* shard will drop. That is: the game picked this TC for item drop and did not pick the "NoDrop". If you increase player number, your chances of getting *any* shard (considering this TC was picked) would be higher.
Assuming then that the game WILL drop a Shard from this specific monster, which shard DOES the game pick? Again, we must check the monster's actual Shard TC. In our example he has a "Act 1 Shard TC", with relative probabilities of:
-5/13 for Act 1 Shard (about 38%)
-3/13 for Act 2 Shard (23%)
-2/13 for Act 3 Shard (15.4%)
-2/13 for Act 4 Shard (15.4%)
-1/13 for Act 5 Shard (7.7%)
I'm sorry if this message has made things even more complicated, lol. I do hope it helps someone, though.
But not "in order" (I don't know what you meant by this)... those are their relative probabilites, when the game's internal RNG matters; no "order" or sequencing involved.
I understand, that was just poor word choice on my part.
Thank you for explanation!
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