Questions about pali shields usage and value

Hello,

I wonder who uses +AR +%ED shield base? Is it for smiters or zealers? Is it only for Exile? In that case I suppose the shield would have to be ethereal to have any value. Is a roll of +100AR +60% ED considered very valuable?

If so, can a roll like this - or a 45 all res - have any trade value when it's in an exceptional or even cracked base? xD 'Cause I found some of these in poor bases.

1 - Ethereal only affect base Defense of the shield
(it will not increase

Smite base damage or the "+% ed + ar" staff mod)

1.1 - In general you use Ethereal only for Exile (as it has self repair)

2 - In general even attack builds (that could benefit from the "+% ed & ar" - like Smitter or any build that attack with a weapon) prefer the +all resist staff mode.
The +65% ed (max) is additive with other sources of +% ed, and don't add much in the overall damage of those builds in the end.
While with +45 to all resist, you may have way less other "resist equipment" and still max your resists

For non-smitter rolls with 45 resist all (or almost) have value even when they are normal base

I dont have proof, but I suspect one ethereal, +45 all res elite base would cost far more than the runes Exile uses.

I once got a non-ethereal elite 4os base, 45 all res, and then get my first and only Exile. It is not the best possible combination, but can smash uber into pieces.

ED, AR on the shield does not translate into real impact, stats on your Grief carries far more weight for a Smiter.

Thanks all for your answers, you made me realize exceptional shields are not without interest.

seansixsixsix wrote: 3 months ago

ED, AR on the shield does not translate into real impact, stats on your Grief carries far more weight for a Smiter.

Yeah I saw on the d2planner that it doesn't bring a lot more damage. A little bit sure, but it didn't seem make or break. But I remember hearing in a livestream that this mod could make a shield very very valuable. Probably needs a precise number of sockets, I don't think they mentioned ethereal. Maybe it's for PVP.

Only use for ED/AR shields comes from pvp community with neutered rules where two paladins are relegated to boringly

Smite/

Zeal each other into oblivion only through the use of physical skills.
Those people seemingly put great value into extra AR, %ED and DEF. And likely noone else.

Queegon wrote: 3 months ago

Only use for ED/AR shields comes from pvp community with neutered rules where two paladins are relegated to boringly

Smite/

Zeal each other into oblivion only through the use of physical skills.
Those people seemingly put great value into extra AR, %ED and DEF. And likely noone else.

I love how everyone seems jaded about PVP, meanwhile I'm trying to get into it. More like LLD.

65ED, 121AR could be valuable depending on the base but mostly for only PvP. For PvE, I saw some Phoenix rolled on such bases to maximize damage out put but it is rare.

seansixsixsix wrote: 3 months ago

I dont have proof, but I suspect one ethereal, +45 all res elite base would cost far more than the runes Exile uses.

I once got a non-ethereal elite 4os base, 45 all res, and then get my first and only Exile. It is not the best possible combination, but can smash uber into pieces.

ED, AR on the shield does not translate into real impact, stats on your Grief carries far more weight for a Smiter.

If it is a

Sacred Targe or

Vortex Shield yea, they'll cost far far more than the runes in Exile

renard wrote: 3 months ago

Queegon wrote: 3 months ago

Only use for ED/AR shields comes from pvp community with neutered rules where two paladins are relegated to boringly

Smite/

Zeal each other into oblivion only through the use of physical skills.
Those people seemingly put great value into extra AR, %ED and DEF. And likely noone else.

I love how everyone seems jaded about PVP, meanwhile I'm trying to get into it. More like LLD.

Nothing wrong with PvP in general. The problem is merely that today's "official" PvP communities implement so many (and such extreme/ridiculous) rules, in part obviously built around what their founder likes to play, that it takes away basically any variation and with that any real entertainment. Hell, plenty of them go so far as to specifically dictate "if you're a druid, you HAVE to play this build and you HAVE to invest your skill points exactly like this or you're not allowed to play". Cuz..ya know..that makes sense and is fun *facepalm*.

Back in the olden days, you had plenty of organized leagues with a relatively simple set of rules merely prohibiting the most imbalanced aspects but otherwise leaving plenty of room for variation in classes, builds and gear. That's when PvP was still genuinely fun (and ultimately just as [if not more] balanced than today's BS restrictions actually).

Then again, being the rusty ol' fart I am these days, I'm almost kinda glad today's communities/rules suck too hard to ever want to even play a single game there. That way, I don't have to feel bad about being too old/slow for it by now anyways.

renard wrote: 3 months ago

Hello,

I wonder who uses +AR +%ED shield base? Is it for smiters or zealers? Is it only for Exile? In that case I suppose the shield would have to be ethereal to have any value. Is a roll of +100AR +60% ED considered very valuable?

If so, can a roll like this - or a 45 all res - have any trade value when it's in an exceptional or even cracked base? xD 'Cause I found some of these in poor bases.

In simplest terms, nigh any phys pally build that has their res maxed regardless of the shield choice should be using an ed/ar shield since the res alternative would be a waste.

That said, the above doesn't apply to too many builds as res does often remain easiest/most efficient to get via the shield. Hence ed/ar shields being worth little to nothing by comparison. Additionally, because hardly anyone wants one to begin with, any that aren't perfect (i.e. only 60 ed as noted here) have even less value and can really just be left with

Charsi (based on the few trades I've seen of them over time). 65/121 is too easy/cheap to get to bother with anything lower for the 3 people that do want one.

From a functional perspective, shield ED is the same as any other off-weapon ED and is not "on-shield ED", meaning regardless of whether you

Smite or

Zeal or whatever, it will apply and is simply summed with the rest of your off-weapon ED. It does not merely directly increase the shield's base

Smite dmg as on-weapon ED would for weapon dmg. That's what keeps it useful for non-smiters as well.

As for the base, a lot of caster pallies (i.e. res shield) don't care much about 'elite or not' so even normal ones keep some value, albeit typically still lower than elite of course. For ed/ar that's a bit less true as a large chunk of the few people that would want one are using

Smite at least for parts of what they do, meaning they want max

Smite dmg and hence need an elite base.

Ethereal only affects a shield's defense, not the

Smite dmg. As such, it adds more defense to a class that tends to already have insane defense levels with Exile. A fair few folks will refuse to use any non-

Eth despite it being complete overkill, driving

Eth value far higher. But non-

Eth is still perfectly fine regardless and does still hold some value if you're otherwise looking at a solid base.

I was just watching a loot highlight video, and by total chance the guy mentions a paladin shield, which he prices at several high runes. What's interesting to me is it's not used for Facets but rather for ED+IAS jewels. Of course the deflecting suffix plays a part in the supposed value. But if this is indeed valuable, I would guess that replacing the suffix with a fourth socket would be good too. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that. I'll probably try to list my shields one time and if they don't go I'll throw them away or use them.

You don't need to replace the suffix; to have a 4th socket, the prefix need to be Jeweller instead of Artisan.
Not a

Monarch, so not a JmoD, but the same combinations of affixes

Don't read or follow my post, I can't math and reading is hard
Here are the defense differences between an ethereal and non-ethereal Exile:

Assumptions:
* Wearing nothing but the Exile shield in a

Sacred Targe
* Not considering base character defense
* Using level 30

Holy Shield
* Shield rolled with 260% Enhanced Defense
* Shield rolled with level 16

Defiance Aura
* Base shield had an mid-roll def of 166 (ST base defense ranges from 154-178

Non-Ethereal Def: 9,654
Ethereal Def: 14,480

The Math

Ethereal

Sacred Targe:

Ethereal Base Defense= 166 * 1.5 = 249

260% Enhanced Defense.

This is applied to the base defense of the shield.

Exile Shield Defense = 249 * (1 + 260/100) = 249 * 3.6 = 896.4

Round this down to 896 defense.

Holy Shield Bonus

At Level 30,

Holy Shield provides a 405% bonus to defense.

Defense with

Holy Shield = 896 * (1 + 405/100) = 896 * 5.05 = 4524.8

This gives approximately 4525 defense with

Holy Shield.

Defiance Aura Bonus

At Level 16,

Defiance provides a 220% bonus to defense. This bonus is multiplicative with

Holy Shield.

Total Defense with

Defiance = 4525 * (1 + 220/100) = 4525 * 3.2 = 14480

Total Defense

The Paladin’s total defense when wearing only an ethereal Exile shield with Level 30

Holy Shield and Level 16

Defiance is approximately 14,480 defense.


Non-Ethereal

Sacred Targe:

Base Defense= 166

260% Enhanced Defense.

This is applied to the base defense of the shield.

Exile Shield Defense = 166 * (1 + 260/100) = 166 * 3.6 = 597.4

Round this down to 597 defense.

Holy Shield Bonus

At Level 30,

Holy Shield provides a 405% bonus to defense.

Defense with

Holy Shield = 597 * (1 + 405/100) = 597 * 5.05 = 3016.85

This gives approximately 3017 defense with

Holy Shield.

Defiance Aura Bonus

At Level 16,

Defiance provides a 220% bonus to defense. This bonus is multiplicative with

Holy Shield.

Total Defense with

Defiance = 3017 * (1 + 220/100) = 3017 * 3.2 = 9654.4

Total Defense

The Paladin’s total defense when wearing only a non-ethereal Exile shield with Level 30

Holy Shield and Level 16

Defiance is approximately 9,654 defense.

I see a number of things wrong here.

Sacred Targe has base defense 126-158 (you can see this yourself by hovering over the name), not 154-178.

Level 30

Holy Shield has +460% defense, not +405%.

Holy Shield is not multiplicative with

Defiance, they are additive. I.e., you add 460 and 220 together before multiplying it with the shield defense, for a total of +680% defense.

Do you have a source for that they are multiplicative?

ShadowHeart wrote: 3 months ago

I see a number of things wrong here.

Sacred Targe has base defense 126-158 (you can see this yourself by hovering over the name), not 154-178.

Level 30

Holy Shield has +460% defense, not +405%.

Holy Shield is not multiplicative with

Defiance, they are additive. I.e., you add 460 and 220 together before multiplying it with the shield defense, for a total of +680% defense.

Do you have a source for that they are multiplicative?

Correct on all of that.

Additionally, you'd typically have to trunc, rather than round up.
Plus even for a "no other gear" calculation you'd theoretically include at least the baseline values for def/dex impact (low as they may be).

Ultimately, you're left with about 4469 def on non-

Eth and 6692 def

Eth.

Thing is, that's fairly misleading because at those values, def actually still makes a noticeable difference, meaning the impact of

Eth could be felt and would be quite desired. This is not only because lower def ranges result in higher impact but also because if your shield is the only thing providing actual def, 50% on shield means nigh 50% across the board.
When you look at a real Exile smiter with decent gear though, the def values are nowhere near that range and neither is the shield-def impact as you're then looking at closer to 40-45k non-

Eth and 45-50k

Eth, give or take, depending on your exact gear choices and all that. At those levels, the real impact in terms of chance-to-get-hit is quite a bit lower.


And just to visualize that a bit because..why not? :p

Spoiler

Say you're fighting

Lilith on a lvl 95. Then the "reduction in chance to get hit" (i.e. the absolute impact) for every 5k extra def essentially looks as follows:

Solid impact in the lower ranges, especially in the 5-25k range (due to her rather high AR) but the higher you get, the lower the impact of each further 5k def.

Mind you, when you look at less extreme examples with lower AR, the difference and 'lack of impact at higher ranges' becomes even more obvious even faster.

Dclone for example would look as follows:

Regular ol' Diablo:

And just for shits and giggles, a random quill rat:

Schnorki wrote: 3 months ago

The problem is merely that today's "official" PvP communities implement so many (and such extreme/ridiculous) rules, in part obviously built around what their founder likes to play, that it takes away basically any variation and with that any real entertainment.

Yeah I had read a post of yours mentioning that. I actually included you when I said everyone seemed jaded with PVP ^^ It does seem indeed too much in terms of rules. It's just that I saw a few videos about good mannered duels and thought well, it looks fun (yeah I watch a lot of D2 videos lately). Gives me a whole new type of items to look for, especially with the max level 30 idea in mind.

But yeah I guess I never saw someone using something like, I dunno,

Holy Freeze in that kind of duels. I wonder if that slows characters to a crawl. It can be fun, or it can be infuriating for the one on the receiving end.

I've actually spent a fair amount of hours dueling in public games back in the day. But I was a kid, it was another mindset entirely ^^ I think it could be fun, if some of you on this forum came together to duel, with fair but relaxed rules. Who's already doing it?