privacy and trade sniping

Voyager wrote: 2 years ago

d2rppa69 wrote: 2 years ago

Voyager wrote: 2 years ago

you can post your offer on the trade directly.
that way the trade get's bump and get other people's attention so others will be also bidding on it and see others offers to make better offers

I do get ur point . It just strange that some ppl prefer to pm to discuss offers etc… ultimately, imho, removing the pm method does more harm than good as some people sometimes want to pm a user to and ask questions. U not suggesting the questions to be asked in the trade thread ? That would be called post spamming…
Ei- if 4 ppl r viewing that post and all have questions regarding the item, and if they cant pm the user to ask questions, dont u think it is silly and post spamming for them to continuosly bumping up the same post due to them asking questions. For that example, pm would make alot of sense.

it's better to post it on the trade directly
the trade poster gets a free bump
and everyone else gets more detail information about the trade

Some people do not want what they paid for the item to be known. More data = trade history of said item, means everyone will expect that trade for THEIR trade.
The art of trading is between 2 people to agree on what is being sold for whatever price/trade.
Same exact item can sell/trade for 2 separate values.

Just because Person A: was really in a rush to buy let's say a P griffon, paid 40x Bers because he could and is the 1 person who EVER paid that amount.
and Person B: will pay what it's "worth" let's say for argument sake, 10x Bers.
Now everyone and their momma expects 40x Bers for a Perfect Griffon, when in fact, there was a 1 off trade that 1 person ever paid that much.

And, the other reason, is trade sniping/low balling.

Every game that has an economy, it's buy low, sell higher/for profit. If you don't have that Hustle mentality, don't expect to get ahead quick.

(Idk how values are made, seems like a general consensus so far on perceived value of said item(s)

Steccothal wrote: 2 years ago

I might perhaps be considered a "trader tycoon" by trade volume (more or less 200 in the last months).
So let me share my experience.
Are all people honorable players/traders you'd like to interact with? Yeah, in your dreams. I found some good guys i kept in touch with, to chat and exchange stuff, but many are just there to get what they can from you and then just send you to get bent when they got they item at the price they think is advantageous for em. Do any people at least have decent standard social interaction when you chat for trading? Again, Dream about it. Greeting and saying good bye, which i don't think can be regarded as politeness but just as being some sort of human, is as frequent as dropping a

Ko rune, let alone have a simple light chat on a videogame that should be a common Passion in between exchanging runes and items.
Now, thanks to trading and some luck in drop i can regularily run ubers, because that's my ultimate goal in trading, having runes to buy keys to play, because PLAYING IS FUN AND TRADING IS NOT. Trading is so not fun fun that yesterday i decided to take a break from it, i deleted all my WTS becaus yes, trading wore me off. I am so sick of these kind of interactions that, as i said, i really need a break.
So i see the OP point on the people you meet and trade with.
Said that, what's the problem of this site? It works very fine, very user friendly, easy to use and nice looking (thanks to the REALLY good people working and mantaining it), the problem is not the platform, the problem is the people taking unfair advantage from it, scamming as many newcomers as they can (have a look at the WTB and try not to feel ashamed by the crazy request for rare items in exchange of practically nothing).

I agree with the playing the game/trading part.

I don't even post anything that I don't think I'll AT MINIMUM get an

Ist+ for.
If we're going through the hassle of adding each other, just to trade for let's say

Um and below, I'll hard pass.
I'm here for the bigger trades.
Anything below seems like a waste to me, but to each their own!

vizzle wrote: 2 years ago

Just because Person A: was really in a rush to buy let's say a P griffon, paid 40x Bers because he could and is the 1 person who EVER paid that amount.
and Person B: will pay what it's "worth" let's say for argument sake, 10x Bers.
Now everyone and their momma expects 40x Bers for a Perfect Griffon, when in fact, there was a 1 off trade that 1 person ever paid that much.

???

Who is going to see one trade for 40

Ber in the Trade History and think 'oh that's what it is worth' and expect to pay that much?

Whole point of the trade history is that you see lots of sales data aggregated and can judge for yourself. This is literally one of it's biggest strengths vs written guides that just say 'its worth

Jah' or whatever.

???

Who is going to see one trade for 40

Ber in the Trade History and think 'oh that's what it is worth' and expect to pay that much?

Whole point of the trade history is that you see lots of sales data aggregated and can judge for yourself. This is literally one of it's biggest strengths vs written guides that just say 'its worth

Jah' or whatever.

The trade history becomes just that. History. Actual data that someone paid

Jah or whatever. Enough people let's say paying around

Jah for said item, it will become the standard.

Which it shouldn't, because trading should be agreed between 2 peoples agreed perceived value. Some value things lower, some value things higher.

I do agree the data helps you figure out what ball park you could realistically expect to get for your trade. I find it very useful, is why I use the price checker/find trades to find similar items and what people are offering for said item.

I was making debate points for OP.

And the data can be skewed, because it's being controlled by people who manually input what they "got" for their trade.

Just saying. A 2cent. I love this site's UI vs jsp Craigslist feel.

vizzle wrote: 2 years ago

Which it shouldn't, because trading should be agreed between 2 peoples agreed perceived value. Some value things lower, some value things higher.

I do agree the data helps you figure out what ball park you could realistically expect to get for your trade.

Yeah, this is the whole point really.

The history system allows you to see a range of prices straight away so that you can see instantly if that 40

Ber trade is just a lie or an anomaly.

It allows you to get a sense of what the lower and higher offers might be. The data is there, it's fresh, and it comes from real exchanges that actually happened. When the deal is done, it's totally down to the two people involved and what their desires and needs are at the time, but at least they have that data.

That's much better than listening to 'what X streamer said 5 months ago' or what a sporadically updated written guide might say, or using an artificial scale or other system to try and determine a price...

And the data can be skewed, because it's being controlled by people who manually input what they "got" for their trade.

No, it can't be 'skewed' - that's the whole point I'm trying to make here.

The system is somewhat decentralised, meaning that if one person wanted to try and fix the price at 40

Ber, they wouldn't be able to because the rest of the prices in the data clearly show that it is an outlier or plain wrong. Anyone can clearly see that because all of the data is there on display.

I know you were responding to OP to give him an incentive not to trade through PMs, I know that, I'm just making sure there can be no misinterpretation of your post.

To say that prices can be 'skewed' intentionally here is a gross misunderstanding of what the price checker tool actually does. No other website will provide you will the full picture/data, no-one can complete enough trades at an inflated prices to try and influence it, so I would argue that in fact this is the hardest place to 'skew' item prices.

I've actually stepped into some trade listings before when they've been reported and used this data to call them out as bullshitters.
I remember one fella trying to sell (I think it was) a

Jah for a

Stone of Jordan +

Ber.
He was rude to everyone in his listing, multiple squelches, and then at the end pompously wrote 'Well I got exactly what I wanted for it on Traderie...'.
I called him out on his bullshit and said pics or it didn't happen.
Traderie doesn't keep a price history, so it was his word he was going on.
He said 'just look at your own price history'.
So I went through the trade history for

Jah and not a single one had ever been sold at what he was asking.
Bullshit. I called him out thanks to the data being there.

So yeah, having price history doesn't help people 'skew' anything, actually it does quite the opposite.

I agree with you that it's a great tool that you guys created. It's just like making an excel or google spread sheet with everyone being able to put their stats on it for others to see.

If you moderate the "fake" trades, I can get a sense of the data not being skewed as much as someone is looking @ the outlandish trades and censoring/omitting their fake data.

Is why for "me" at least, I will continue to trade here compared to jsp(I dislike the P2W aspect of FG but that's a different topic).

About the sale history, it is very useful, but it has its flaws in a sense that it can be manipulated- as in fake sales among groups/friends/ etc to increase the perceive value of the said items being sold. In all, its all to say how much an item is worth even through the sales history log.

To me, i do not think a perf griffon worth 6++ bers but to others, who have bers sitting around, it is.

Trading in d2 n other game with economy can easily be manipulated just like the real thing

vizzle wrote: 2 years ago

If you moderate the "fake" trades, I can get a sense of the data not being skewed as much as someone is looking @ the outlandish trades and censoring/omitting their fake data.

As always, reports are open to anyone, and the moderators investigate every report we receive from the site's user base.

d2rppa69 wrote: 2 years ago

About the sale history, it is very useful, but it has its flaws in a sense that it can be manipulated- as in fake sales among groups/friends/ etc to increase the perceive value of the said items being sold.

Fixing prices is not as easy as you think - everyone has access to the report button, everyone has access to the data.

So to do this effectively, you would have to convince the thousands of daily visitors that the sales are not fake. That means several fake accounts, taking the great amount of time required to make the listings look original and 'different' enough from each other to avoid suspicion, across a wide enough time range to cover several pages of results, with soldfor values that look loke natural inflation and not obvious hikes, and posted at different times to make them appear unrelated.

It's easy for us (myself and the mods) to detect ANY of the above methods, and even easier to detect if they're all done in tandem to actually try and pull it off.

Ask yourselves, would you really be motivated to do all of that, dedicating weeks of your time ^ just so you raise the price of a

Stone of Jordan up by one rune? The answer is clearly no!

Using this hypothesis of 'possible manipulation' to detract from the authenticity of the data here, of saying 'it could be skewed' is clearly not a well thought through argument.

The risk vs the reward of trying this makes it incredibly unlikely to happen in the first place, and easy to detect and remove if it does happen.

knowing the sold page history displays past 3 days when for the full listing clicked- not everyone will click on the listing sold to see who buys/sells in detail?

I usually just skim through the list n see the sold amount is displaying.

Say, if i have 10 griffons, and i want to increase its price by1 hr rune. I can begin to start selling them. Then bids come in, finally one of my friends join to increase abit by bit. Eventually it sell at my desired inflated rate, i then “sell” it to my friend.

I do the same , and my other friend will help and repeat the same process. Then after 5-6 griffons being sold, and users look at the last 3 day sold data, wouldnt they just use that is a sell/buy gauge of value for griffon? One would automatically think griffon has increased in demand just by that train of thought?

Things like this, would the site or mods etc be able to catch? I dont think its possible since these r not fake accts, but actual users who “purchased” the griffon but really the griffon never exchanged hands…

d2rppa69 wrote: 2 years ago

knowing the sold page history displays past 3 days when for the full listing clicked- not everyone will click on the listing sold to see who buys/sells in detail?

I usually just skim through the list n see the sold amount is displaying.

Say, if i have 10 griffons, and i want to increase its price by1 hr rune. I can begin to start selling them. Then bids come in, finally one of my friends join to increase abit by bit. Eventually it sell at my desired inflated rate, i then “sell” it to my friend.

I do the same , and my other friend will help and repeat the same process. Then after 5-6 griffons being sold, and users look at the last 3 day sold data, wouldnt they just use that is a sell/buy gauge of value for griffon? One would automatically think griffon has increased in demand just by that train of thought?

Things like this, would the site or mods etc be able to catch? I dont think its possible since these r not fake accts, but actual users who “purchased” the griffon but really the griffon never exchanged hands…

This is more of what I was referring to, not mass inflation, just the onesies twosies to help each other bump up value of something by half or whole runes.

This guy gets it, because it's actually being done. Am I snitching? Maybe.

It's not that difficult to change/make a trend is all I'm saying without admitting guilt.

In the end, it's the responsibility of the individuals to agree to said trade. No one has a gun pointed to their heads xD

d2rppa69 wrote: 2 years ago

knowing the sold page history displays past 3 days when for the full listing clicked- not everyone will click on the listing sold to see who buys/sells in detail?

I usually just skim through the list n see the sold amount is displaying.

Is this the fault of the site or the fault of the user for not exercising due diligence?

d2rppa69 wrote: 2 years ago

... i want to increase its price by1 hr rune. I can begin to start selling them. Then bids come in, finally one of my friends join to increase abit by bit. Eventually it sell at my desired inflated rate, i then “sell” it to my friend.

Then someone reports you, we investigate, and you get banned. We actually read reports here.

d2rppa69 wrote: 2 years ago

Things like this, would the site or mods etc be able to catch?

Yes.

Ask yourselves, would you really be motivated to do all of that, dedicating weeks of your time ^ just so you raise the price of a

Stone of Jordan up by one rune? The answer is clearly no!

^.

It's not that difficult to change/make a trend is all I'm saying without admitting guilt.

And the more you try to inflate it, the more suspicious it looks, and the less interested people get, and the less offers you get. They have the data freely available to them.

Look:

If you guys are trying to suggest that there is a technical workaround that will stop humans from being cunts - then I'm all ears.
If you think this is something I can realistically solve with code and common sense, then that is what this subforum is for.

I've tried to design the system in a way that makes it as difficult as possible for people to cheat - giving people the tools they need to crowd police this themselves, and the background routines that flag suspicious activity.
This involved a great deal of time and effort to build, listening to feedback suggestions, and a lot of experience moderating the site.

If it is your intention to complain here, making hypotheses about trade data being skewed/manipulated, without actually providing solutions or suggestions for your issues, then you're worse than OP who at least tried to provide a solution, even if it wasn't a well received one.

You can conjecture, speculate, and Dream up any scenario and say that it's possible to do. People will always find a way to cheat.
We could talk all week about what it might be possible to do here if you had enough friends and determination.

My job isn't to stop people from cheating completely; it is to make it as hard as is reasonably practicable for people to do so, to mitigate that risk as much as possible.
If you have suggestions on how this can be improved, then please provide them.

Having the functionality to post, PM and share your Battle.net ID is what makes the site great. Don’t put people in a box. If you believe in trading one way then do it your way. If the site rules direct a certain way then follow that but trade stealing and BM practices are part of the grind. That’s why GM trades and a site like this with structure is so rewarding.

You have to remember that you could potentially be playing with a 7 year old who doesn’t know what trading etiquette means. I’m a old school guy. I value GM trades, duels and play but I also get that people steal trades, BM duel and manipulate the market. It’s part of the game, the D2 experience and gameplay. I don’t chose those methods but I understand they happen and don’t get all worked up when it happens. If we don’t have freedom then you end up getting locked into things you don’t enjoy. By having options it allows all to enjoy this awesome game, in whatever screwed up life and beliefs you have!

BigSpaid wrote: 2 years ago

If the site rules direct a certain way then follow that but trade stealing and BM practices are part of the grind.

Indeed. Allow me to take this opportunity to cite the rules of trading here on the site in relation to your point BigSpaid.

Sellers who create a trade thread for their item should expect other sellers to be watching their thread. It is an open market and nothing can be done about other sellers sending direct messages to people who make offers for items. Sellers are encouraged to get into a game with a player offering an item as soon as they can in order to close their deals. Along the same line, buyers are also encouraged to get into a game with the seller as soon as possible so they can close the deal before somebody else gets to it.

Traders are expected to get as much as they can for their items as soon as they can. Trades are not completed until items have been exchanged. This is not an auction site and no commitments are made in either direction until a trade actually takes place in-game.