Show off your demons!

Rhaegar86 wrote: 17 hours ago

Check out my new rainbow devil from the Furnace of Pain with cursed + fana...

Black maw.jpg

Gulp.... The unicorn of all unicorns

The reason why their damage is so weak is because they spend a lot of time breathing fire instead of attacking so they're not really suitable for a summon warlock. Plus like @FerociousTerrier mentions with no way to increase their low monster level (tz) they can have trouble hitting when they do eventually go for swing (tho Demon Limb, Blessed Aim, Inner Sight, Death Mark does mitigate this)

DrunkAkuma wrote: 15 hours ago

are the Uber Pit lord able to come with the Bonus Modifier: Multiple Shot (greatly preferred, as it splits their Inferno breath into three streams to coat the whole screen instantly)

Yes they can get multishot

Not sure if it makes them curse more, i don't think I've ever had a multishot and cursed one

FerociousTerrier wrote: 14 hours ago

The Dark Lancers in Matron's Den cannot be terrorized, so I believe they are always level 88 +/-. That just makes them a slightly weaker version of the ones you can get from terrorized Act 5. Effectively, damage is the same since their actual damage is dwarfed by Bind Demon added damage. Their HP can be an issue unless you like doing ubers in P8--if not, you can get a higher health lancer from a P8 game in terrorized Act 5. The biggest difference may be in chance to hit, because a level 99 dark lancer *probably* has a much easier time hitting high levels like Dclone and Ubers than a lvl 88 Dark Lancer from Matron's Den. Another difference is their aura level since Tz lancers can get a level higher aura than a lvl 88 lancer. I am sure you are generally better off with a higher level Tz lancer than with an uber lancer.

Personally I've had no issues with my Matron's Den lancers re: tankiness, they have MUCH more health than the ones from a5. Even without Stone skin I've had no issues. I'm not sure if they have a higher health Cap than them, or if it's just that they reach the health Cap without tz / p8

That is true about attack rating but her Jab somewhat mitigates this, as well as any attack rating / defense modifiers

But.... I would still say it's not worth the keys. I think it'll be much less of a pain to find one with Stone skin in a5

Interesting, seems they do have way more health, although presumably it is subject to the Cap of 12k tho

https://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/ind ... on%27s_Den

Bertram The Cursed wrote: 5 hours ago

Did you get the cursed Rainbow Devil with one Point in Bind Demon or 15?

Uniques in the Furnace of Pain are the only ones that can spawn with cursed, which need 15 points to bind, but you can get the regular ones with 1 point

Bertram The Cursed wrote: 4 hours ago

I assumed so. Maybe its not worth the 15 HP in some cases. Magic and Firelock dont need it or maybe just for mercs survivalbility.

I agree, probably not worth it except for eldritch builds

Bertram The Cursed wrote: 5 hours ago

@Rhaegar86 Did you get the cursed Rainbow Devil with one Point in Bind Demon or 15?

It didn't even occur to me to try 15 so I bound him with 20. I ran him for about an hour looking for heralds but I was quickly reminded why I quit trying to find cursed demons with my build. Nothing lasts long enough for curse to proc lol. Respec'd and went into UT to find Mr. Freeze. Holy Freeze is my all time favorite aura. IMO, it has the most utility for magic builds. My demon is more of a flashy accessory nowadays. He's like a really, really nasty purse poodle on steroids lol

kerph wrote: 11 hours ago

FerociousTerrier wrote: 14 hours ago

The Dark Lancers in Matron's Den cannot be terrorized, so I believe they are always level 88 +/-. That just makes them a slightly weaker version of the ones you can get from terrorized Act 5. Effectively, damage is the same since their actual damage is dwarfed by Bind Demon added damage. Their HP can be an issue unless you like doing ubers in P8--if not, you can get a higher health lancer from a P8 game in terrorized Act 5. The biggest difference may be in chance to hit, because a level 99 dark lancer *probably* has a much easier time hitting high levels like Dclone and Ubers than a lvl 88 Dark Lancer from Matron's Den. Another difference is their aura level since Tz lancers can get a level higher aura than a lvl 88 lancer. I am sure you are generally better off with a higher level Tz lancer than with an uber lancer.

Personally I've had no issues with my Matron's Den lancers re: tankiness, they have MUCH more health than the ones from a5. Even without Stone skin I've had no issues. I'm not sure if they have a higher health Cap than them, or if it's just that they reach the health Cap without tz / p8

That is true about attack rating but her Jab somewhat mitigates this, as well as any attack rating / defense modifiers

But.... I would still say it's not worth the keys. I think it'll be much less of a pain to find one with Stone skin in a5

Just looked at it more this morning, the WSK1 Black lancers are also listed as lancer_cr8, and come with the 27.8k hp max same as the Matron's Den ones (actually slightly higher vs. 26k). Also they are level 85 vs. 83.

http://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/inde ... ep_Level_1
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/inde ... on%27s_Den

Crazy how much more HP they have than even the ancient's way lancers, at 5k max, with level only 85 vs. 82, and same base monster type. Also double the damage at 187 vs. 99, although the Bind Demon add damage overshadows this.

http://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/inde ... nts%27_Way

Well.. I never knew. Glad I checked this. I had just been binding Vile Lancers from Act 1 because they are easy and plentiful to spawn, I figured the only difference between these guys and the WSK1 guys was the level difference, which TZ should fix. But that is not the case. Side note, this site's listing monsters/corrupt-rogue-spearwoman-t4206.html for Lancers doesn't capture this difference, which is why I was confused. I generally trust Amazon Basin on monster stats over diablo2.io.

Based on this, I think WSK1 lancers are for sure the way to go if you want a lancer, even if it is annoying they only have a 52% chance of spawning in WSK1 based on my calcs (14 possible monsters, 3 chances) (although I swear the last 10 times I've been in WSK1 I haven't seen them). All the benefits of the Matron's Den, but you also get Terrorized level increase and affix. And no need to worry about player's count, because the HP will already be maxed to the Cap.

I could even see going for a cursed affix vs. Stone skin with the increased tankiness. Lack of Stone skin will result in 4x the physical damage under normal conditions - however, the WSK1 lancer has 5x the HP - granted, the Cap reduces this somewhat, but it is still close to 2.5-3x on average I think at P1, and under amp damage conditions (the only condition my lancer is ever in danger), the WSK1 lancer wins out. Although I DO have to watch her sometimes when amped, so maybe Stone skin still best, and this could make it where I don't have to watch her ever.

FerociousTerrier wrote: 2 hours ago

varangium wrote: 2 hours ago

kerph wrote: 11 hours ago

Personally I've had no issues with my Matron's Den lancers re: tankiness, they have MUCH more health than the ones from a5. Even without Stone skin I've had no issues. I'm not sure if they have a higher health Cap than them, or if it's just that they reach the health Cap without tz / p8

That is true about attack rating but her Jab somewhat mitigates this, as well as any attack rating / defense modifiers

But.... I would still say it's not worth the keys. I think it'll be much less of a pain to find one with Stone skin in a5

Just looked at it more this morning, the WSK1 Black lancers are also listed as lancer_cr8, and come with the 27.8k hp max same as the Matron's Den ones (actually slightly higher vs. 26k). Also they are level 85 vs. 83.

http://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/inde ... ep_Level_1
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/inde ... on%27s_Den

Crazy how much more HP they have than even the ancient's way lancers, at 5k max, with level only 85 vs. 82, and same base monster type. Also double the damage at 187 vs. 99, although the Bind Demon add damage overshadows this.

http://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/inde ... nts%27_Way

Well.. I never knew. Glad I checked this. I had just been binding Vile Lancers from Act 1 because they are easy and plentiful to spawn, I figured the only difference between these guys and the WSK1 guys was the level difference, which TZ should fix. But that is not the case. Side note, this site's listing monsters/corrupt-rogue-spearwoman-t4206.html for Lancers doesn't capture this difference, which is why I was confused. I generally trust Amazon Basin on monster stats over diablo2.io.

Based on this, I think WSK1 lancers are for sure the way to go if you want a lancer, even if it is annoying they only have a 52% chance of spawning in WSK1 based on my calcs (14 possible monsters, 3 chances) (although I swear the last 10 times I've been in WSK1 I haven't seen them). All the benefits of the Matron's Den, but you also get Terrorized level increase and affix. And no need to worry about player's count, because the HP will already be maxed to the Cap.

I could even see going for a cursed affix vs. Stone skin with the increased tankiness. Lack of Stone skin will result in 4x the physical damage under normal conditions - however, the WSK1 lancer has 5x the HP - granted, the Cap reduces this somewhat, but it is still close to 2.5-3x on average I think at P1, and under amp damage conditions (the only condition my lancer is ever in danger), the WSK1 lancer wins out. Although I DO have to watch her sometimes when amped, so maybe Stone skin still best, and this could make it where I don't have to watch her ever.

I am sure that is an error on the amazonbasin page. There is no way lancers in WSK1 have 70% more health than Frenzy bulls. They are much more similar to heirophants that are around 6K health. If I am wrong I am very happy to be corrected.

Also, there is still benefit to higher player count because each additional player raises the health Cap. So a P1 lancer from Matron's Den still ends up with less health than a normal vile lancer in P8 and thousands less than a champion or unique from Frigid/ Frozen River/Ancients(and likely WSK1) in P3-P8.

True on the additional Cap benefit, I forgot about that. Well, my subconscious was trying to save me the trouble of finding a P8 Stone skin TZ game with lancers in WSK1 that bind with my preferred aura . Here is the file with the max hp and increase per level, pulled from the Blood Oath thread for convenience:

https://github.com/pinkufairy/D2R-Excel ... monpet.txt

13.2k hp Cap for lancers, with 660 per additional player count, 17.8k max hp at P8.

Someone that knows how to inspect the game files should check on whether diablo2.io or amazonbasin is correct about the cr8 lancer.

It is worth noting that it isn't just the hit points that are unusual vs the rest of the lancers, the damage is unusual also, 2x as high.

It's also worth noting, that the unusually high HP listing applies to most monster types that appear in the Matron's Den/Furnace/Sands.

They all have the same 26784 HP listing, with a few exceptions.

My guess - Blizz just boosted the HP of the bad guys that appear in Uber Tristram, but since the CR8 lancers appear in WSK1 as well, they also get the boost. Could be a data error on Amazon Basin too, I suppose both ways make sense. But there are other big outlier stats on these monster types that are not consistent with copy/paste errors or temporary values, as they do vary by monster type. Example, the doubled damage on the CR8 lancers, also the arachnids in the Sands do 18k poison damage, which is way more than any Arachnid that appears elsewhere in the game - supporting the idea that these monsters were boosted far beyond the normal level scaling. The defense on the CR8 lancers is also almost 2x that of a CR7 lancer.

We can calculate the level scaling based on the HP difference between 85 WSK1 and 83 Matron's Den lancers, it is 511. 5 per level. So a tz 96 should have 33.5k HP before getting capped down to 13.2-17.8k.

All of the other lancer types scale by the same HP per level, even if they are different types, e.g. cr1 vs. cr7. The scaling on these regular lancers is 112 hp/level.

cr8 lancers that appear in the den and WSK1 are the outlier, along with a number of other Uber Tristram monsters all set at the same HP.

varangium wrote: 2 hours ago

I could even see going for a cursed affix vs. Stone skin with the increased tankiness.

I'm often a little confused on what can roll.

For regular ( Bind Demon Level 1):
- they can inherit the TZ act modifier, such as cursed
- they can roll an aura (such as Holy Freeze) if BD is level 20.
- they cannot get Stone skin?

For ghostly ( Bind Demon Level 10?):
- they can inhert the TZ act modifier, such as cursed????
- they get phys resistance like Stone skin automatically?
- they get an aura (such as Holy Freeze) if BD is level 20.

For uniques ( Bind Demon level 15):
- they cannot inherit the TZ act modifier.
- they can roll with cursed
- they can roll with an aura such as Holy Freeze or get one from BD
- they can ALSO roll lightning enchanted
- they can ALSO roll Stone skin???

You can see from the question marks where I'm lost.

I feel like a perfect lancer would be a unique p8 WSK1 TZ 96 with cursed, Holy Freeze, lightning, and Stone skin. But i'm not actually sure that can roll.

departure wrote: 44 minutes ago

For regular ( Bind Demon Level 1):
- they can inherit the TZ act modifier, such as cursed
- they can roll an aura (such as Holy Freeze) if BD is level 20.
- they cannot get Stone skin?

They can get Stone skin from tz affix

departure wrote: 44 minutes ago

For ghostly ( Bind Demon Level 10?):
- they can inhert the TZ act modifier, such as cursed????
- they get phys resistance like Stone skin automatically?
- they get an aura (such as Holy Freeze) if BD is level 20.

They don't inherit tz affix unforunately

departure wrote: 44 minutes ago

For uniques ( Bind Demon level 15):
- they cannot inherit the TZ act modifier.
- they can roll with cursed
- they can roll with an aura such as Holy Freeze or get one from BD
- they can ALSO roll lightning enchanted
- they can ALSO roll Stone skin???

Afaik yes they can roll all 3 affixes. They just can't have more than two immunities

kerph wrote: 40 minutes ago

They can get Stone skin from tz affix

Right, but then no curse.

kerph wrote: 40 minutes ago

They don't inherit tz affix unforunately

Booooo!

kerph wrote: 40 minutes ago

Afaik yes they can roll all 3 affixes. They just can't have more than two immunities

Ok, if they're limited to 3 affixes, I think a unique can't roll with Holy Freeze already and still get lightning + Stone + cursed. You'd have to find one with no aura, and then get lucky with Holy Freeze on binding.... unless rolling with an aura is somehow linked with some of those other affixes.

FerociousTerrier wrote: 15 minutes ago

departure wrote: 36 minutes ago

kerph wrote: 40 minutes ago

They can get Stone skin from tz affix

Right, but then no curse.

kerph wrote: 40 minutes ago

They don't inherit tz affix unforunately

Booooo!

kerph wrote: 40 minutes ago

Afaik yes they can roll all 3 affixes. They just can't have more than two immunities

Ok, if they're limited to 3 affixes, I think a unique can't roll with Holy Freeze already and still get lightning + Stone + cursed. You'd have to find one with no aura, and then get lucky with Holy Freeze on binding.... unless rolling with an aura is somehow linked with some of those other affixes.

Welcome to the neverending search for the perfect pokemon demon.

It really is a game in and of itself