I was thinking about starting a wolf - I understand that The Reaper's Toll is a good weapon. I also read people saying that Death with Faith merc for Fanaticism and atmas is good.
I personally wanted to try Last Wish - don't have the runes yet but would give me something to save up for.
I saw people saying that you should build it in a Phase Blade due to repair costs and attack speed for cb. - the latter doesn't seem to be so crucial with Fanaticism as you only need little IAS on top even with a Glorious Axe.
Which brings me to my question I guess (assuming 28 wolf and 15 fana for the numbers below):
does it at all make sense to use a two-handed weapon like a Glorious Axe or Thunder Maul? You lose your shield slot - I understand the wolf cannot block but you could use Phoenix or some other defensive option.
If you would go for a two-hander it looks like Thunder Maul is too slow - not sure how to reach 35 IAS for 7 FPA - Glorious Axe you would only need 20 which disciples gloves will do.
I think 6 FPA are impossible for either - correct?
(Giant) Thresher would be an alternative - but both would also need 37 IAS for 6 FPA.
So basically, is Last Wish stupid in general and if not does it make sense to build it in a two-handed weapon? Also let me know if I misunderstand mechanics entirely wrong)
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I was thinking about starting a wolf - I understand that The Reaper's Toll is a good weapon. I also read people saying that Death with Faith merc for Fanaticism and atmas is good.
I personally wanted to try Last Wish - don't have the runes yet but would give me something to save up for.
I saw people saying that you should build it in a Phase Blade due to repair costs and attack speed for cb. - the latter doesn't seem to be so crucial with Fanaticism as you only need little IAS on top even with a Glorious Axe.
Which brings me to my question I guess (assuming 28 wolf and 15 fana for the numbers below):
does it at all make sense to use a two-handed weapon like a Glorious Axe or Thunder Maul? You lose your shield slot - I understand the wolf cannot block but you could use Phoenix or some other defensive option.
If you would go for a two-hander it looks like Thunder Maul is too slow - not sure how to reach 35 IAS for 7 FPA - Glorious Axe you would only need 20 which disciples gloves will do.
I think 6 FPA are impossible for either - correct?
(Giant) Thresher would be an alternative - but both would also need 37 IAS for 6 FPA.
So basically, is Last Wish stupid in general and if not does it make sense to build it in a two-handed weapon? Also let me know if I misunderstand mechanics entirely wrong)
Description by I personally wanted to try Last Wish - don't have the runes yet but would give me something to save up for.
I saw people saying that you should build it in a Phase Blade due to repair costs and attack speed for cb. - the latter doesn't seem to be so crucial with Fanaticism as you only need little IAS on top even with a Glorious Axe.
Which brings me to my question I guess (assuming 28 wolf and 15 fana for the numbers below):
does it at all make sense to use a two-handed weapon like a Glorious Axe or Thunder Maul? You lose your shield slot - I understand the wolf cannot block but you could use Phoenix or some other defensive option.
If you would go for a two-hander it looks like Thunder Maul is too slow - not sure how to reach 35 IAS for 7 FPA - Glorious Axe you would only need 20 which disciples gloves will do.
I think 6 FPA are impossible for either - correct?
(Giant) Thresher would be an alternative - but both would also need 37 IAS for 6 FPA.
So basically, is Last Wish stupid in general and if not does it make sense to build it in a two-handed weapon? Also let me know if I misunderstand mechanics entirely wrong)
xigua
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any notable difference between Glorious Axe and Decapitator? Other than it is probably harder to come by because 5 vs 6 sockets
Not really, same speed bases. Glorious Axe has 1 more rangeadder while having around 1% less avg damage.xigua wrote: 11 months ago any notable difference between Glorious Axe and Decapitator? Other than it is probably harder to come by because 5 vs 6 sockets
and you would prefer eDeath to Last Wish due to etherealness?
eDeath:
+avg 340% dmg resulting in 139.5 * 340% = 474 avg dmg which is used to apply skill boni as I understand - so you go from 474 to (lvl 34 Fury) + 661% + 215 from Feral Rage + 200% from str + 300% forti + 288% from fana = 7868 avg dmg + 50% ds = 11800 per hit
LW:
+avg 352% dmg resulting in 92 * 352.5% = 323 avg dmg + 661% + 215 from Feral Rage + 200% from str + 300% forti + 288% from fana + 180% from might = 5943 avg dmg per hit
Following this line of thoughts - wouldn't Grief be almost always be the best weapon?
Putting this in my 92 avg dmg Glorious Axe would result in a base dmg of 467 (avg dmg) - so very close to eDeath - using a BA instead would be 422 allowing for Phoenix with +375% - so we would be at 7752 dmg ( Glorious Axe) or 8587 (BA with Phoenix) - so I guess eDeath still better because of deadly strike - and all seem to be higher in damage than Last Wish.
eDeath:
+avg 340% dmg resulting in 139.5 * 340% = 474 avg dmg which is used to apply skill boni as I understand - so you go from 474 to (lvl 34 Fury) + 661% + 215 from Feral Rage + 200% from str + 300% forti + 288% from fana = 7868 avg dmg + 50% ds = 11800 per hit
LW:
+avg 352% dmg resulting in 92 * 352.5% = 323 avg dmg + 661% + 215 from Feral Rage + 200% from str + 300% forti + 288% from fana + 180% from might = 5943 avg dmg per hit
Following this line of thoughts - wouldn't Grief be almost always be the best weapon?
Putting this in my 92 avg dmg Glorious Axe would result in a base dmg of 467 (avg dmg) - so very close to eDeath - using a BA instead would be 422 allowing for Phoenix with +375% - so we would be at 7752 dmg ( Glorious Axe) or 8587 (BA with Phoenix) - so I guess eDeath still better because of deadly strike - and all seem to be higher in damage than Last Wish.
When looking at dmg calculations, the base weapon damage gets multiplied with the ethereal factor (1.5), then with the on-weapon ED and that then gets multiplied with the sum of your off-weapon ED (including that from skills, stats and so on).xigua wrote: 11 months ago and you would prefer eDeath to Last Wish due to etherealness?
eDeath:
+avg 340% dmg resulting in 139.5 * 340% = 474 avg dmg which is used to apply skill boni as I understand - so you go from 474 to (lvl 34 Fury) + 661% + 215 from Feral Rage + 200% from str + 300% forti + 288% from fana = 7868 avg dmg + 50% ds = 11800 per hit
LW:
+avg 352% dmg resulting in 92 * 352.5% = 323 avg dmg + 661% + 215 from Feral Rage + 200% from str + 300% forti + 288% from fana + 180% from might = 5943 avg dmg per hit
Following this line of thoughts - wouldn't Grief be almost always be the best weapon?
Putting this in my 92 avg dmg Glorious Axe would result in a base dmg of 467 (avg dmg) - so very close to eDeath - using a BA instead would be 422 allowing for Phoenix with +375% - so we would be at 7752 dmg ( Glorious Axe) or 8587 (BA with Phoenix) - so I guess eDeath still better because of deadly strike - and all seem to be higher in damage than Last Wish.
Do note that each multiplication step includes an added +100% because you're keeping the inherent base values. That seems to be where your math is off, primarily.
So assuming a Glorious Axe, you're looking at
LW: 60-124 dmg non-ethereal => 92 avg. * (100% + 352.5% avg ED) = 416 avg.
eDeath: 90-186 dmg ethereal => 138 avg. * (100% + 342.5% avg ED) = 610 avg.
Beyond that, looking at your list, you're adding (just using your numbers, correcting the aura values though):
- 661% from Fury
- 215% from Feral Rage
- 200% from Strength
- 300% from Fortitude
- 144% from Fana (I assume you got your 288 off a lvl 15 Faith? 288 is the bonus to your merc wielding it, fana party bonus is lower)
= Total 1520% from skills/stats/gear applicable to both
For LW, you're adding another 200% from the lvl 17 Might, giving you a total 1720% there.
So LW = 416 avg. * (100% + 1720%) = 7571 avg.
eDeath = 610 avg. * (100% + 1520%) = 9882 avg.
That's really only half the picture though as eDeath also offers massive deadly strike while LW offers higher crushing and ITD, among other minor things.
Grief by contrast (still assuming a Glorious Axe) would give you a starting average of 92 + 370 = 462 which then gets the same boni an eDeath would:
462 avg. * (100% + 1520%) = 7484 avg. -> worse base avg than either LW or eDeath.
Though Grief of course does give you the freedom to move to other weapons as the base weapon dmg hardly matters anymore. A BA starts you off at 417 avg., then adding 1520% + 375% avg. from Phoenix = 1895% and you get a total
417 avg. * (100% + 1895%) = 8319 avg. which is still below eDeath. Though you do get to use a shield. And you do get extra dmg to demons, ITD and some DS from Grief while sacrificing all weapon CB at the same time.
Typically, the main advantage of Grief though is the fact that you can use a Phase Blade and hence get your IAS capped without resorting to a fana merc.
Said phase starts you at an avg. 403 dmg. Dropping fana (144%) for a might merc (say lvl 90 = lvl 18 might aura I believe it was = 210%, then give him a Pride = avg 315% and you get a total 2276% ED, giving you
403 avg. * (100% + 2276%) = 9575 avg, getting you quite close to eDeath base while then just weighting the other factors (ITD, having a shield, ... vs. CB)
Or, probably far superior in this case, you don't use Pride and instead give your merc a reaper. That takes you down to:
403 avg. * (100% + 1961%) = 8305 avg. base = 12457 avg. with decrep procced (which happens a lot with a reaper's merc)
My gut feeling would be that Grief + reaper merc would be the ideal, not only for all of the inherent defensive benefit it adds but also for what is bound to be far higher average damage output.
Mind you, that's coming from someone who despises Atma's as a neck choice for any build (let's be honest, the proc chance is just pathetic..as is the radius if it ever does happen) and who doesn't really play shapeshifters beyond the occasional random experimentation.
And it is assuming that you can Cap your attack speed with a phase without using a fana merc.Though looking at maxroll, I guess there may be an artifically limiting IAS factor to consider? Assuming for a second their calc ever got updated/is accurate (which I'm too lazy to check atm):
Max attack speed with a phase = 5/3/6 = 20 frames
BA = 5/3/6 = 20 frames
Glorious = 4/3/5 = 18 frames
Decapitator = 4/3/5 = 18 frames
That's the same with or without fana.
So looking at that, as long as you're able to Cap your IAS (which seems easy enough based also on their numbers), 2-handers effectively get a bonus 11% total damage by comparison, simply because they can attack 2 frames faster than 1-handers ever could.
Though even with that, my gut feeling would stay the same (Grief PB + reaper merc). Also because (since I was looking at MR anyways) you apparently need less IAS to Cap Grief without fana than you do to Cap a Glorious Axe with fana, not even counting the IAS on Grief itself, which further opens up your overall gear choices, letting you optimize damage output by other means as well.
Alternatively (if you kill too fast for a merc to keep up anyways), eDeath it is.
(Math spelled out to allow for easy double-checking..this was done pre-coffee so errors are possible
- rounding [trunc] added in each step)
with decrep procced (which happens a lot with a reaper's merc)
Nope
Alternatively (if you kill too fast for a merc to keep up anyways).
Yep
You will be outrunning your merc constantly (especially with Feral Rage active), so unless you play on higher difficulties, you will be killing much faster than your merc can get into action himself. Long-range auras on merc are the way to go.
Druid has different top framerates for different weapon types. Fastest (can reach 18fpa) are two-handed polearms, not spears, two-handed axes, two-handed hammers, and staves.
Nope
Alternatively (if you kill too fast for a merc to keep up anyways).
Yep
You will be outrunning your merc constantly (especially with Feral Rage active), so unless you play on higher difficulties, you will be killing much faster than your merc can get into action himself. Long-range auras on merc are the way to go.
Druid has different top framerates for different weapon types. Fastest (can reach 18fpa) are two-handed polearms, not spears, two-handed axes, two-handed hammers, and staves.
If you get a PM offer, post it in the trade. Promote healthy competition instead of settling for less.
awesome and thanks for the write-up @Schnorki !
I used https://warren1001.github.io/IAS_Calculator/ and it seems that caping IAS without fana using either Death or LW is a challenge - even using Meta Bear and fana - you still need 22 IAS from gear to reach 4/3/5 - or I am using it wrong
How do you manage a decent amount of res on a Fury druid? without Fade from LW and using Fortitude I could imagine this becomes a challenge - especially if you decide to use meta - or do you fully rely on health pool?
I used https://warren1001.github.io/IAS_Calculator/ and it seems that caping IAS without fana using either Death or LW is a challenge - even using Meta Bear and fana - you still need 22 IAS from gear to reach 4/3/5 - or I am using it wrong
How do you manage a decent amount of res on a Fury druid? without Fade from LW and using Fortitude I could imagine this becomes a challenge - especially if you decide to use meta - or do you fully rely on health pool?
Figured that may be the case. Hence the disclaimer and including Pride in the write-up.Queegon wrote: 11 months ago with decrep procced (which happens a lot with a reaper's merc)
Nope
...
You will be outrunning your merc constantly (especially with Feral Rage active)
Same reason I'd never use reaper's on my bowzon then, much as I'd like to in theory. Merc just can't keep up.
20+20 from torch+anni
30-45 from Jalal's Mane
30 from Fortitude
50fr from Laying of Hands
35lr from Highlord's Wrath
Whatever you can fit on non- Raven Frost ring
Whatever else is left for small charms. Personally I needed a couple poison res charms after all this. Using Metamorphosis for pre-buff only here.
If you get a PM offer, post it in the trade. Promote healthy competition instead of settling for less.
Is this train of thought okay? Thanks for your help!!
dmg potential: 403 * (100%+661%+200% (str)+215% Feral Rage - does not apply+300+375 Phoenix+280 conc) ~ 7721 per hit on average - 5+(3)+6
+ cheapest
+ robust
+ most balanced
- a little boring
+ highest damage
- squishy (?)
- doesn't hit highest FPA (if dracs)
+ durable
- expensive
- lowest damage
dmg potential: 403 * (100%+661%+200% (str)+215% Feral Rage - does not apply+300+375 Phoenix+280 conc) ~ 7721 per hit on average - 5+(3)+6
+ cheapest
+ robust
+ most balanced
- a little boring
- eDead 2h + Fana + Fort + Drac + Meta + Highlords
+ highest damage
- squishy (?)
- doesn't hit highest FPA (if dracs)
- LW 2h + Fana + Fort + Disc + Meta + Highlords
+ durable
- expensive
- lowest damage
is a Ribcracker still a viable option?
ethereal upped it sports 588 avg damage - 50 IAS is enough with Fanaticism to not need the bear-buff for max fps - only gloves.
Unfortunately at the high end of ed it is similarly expensive as LW - damage wise between LW and eDead
Unfortunately at the high end of ed it is similarly expensive as LW - damage wise between LW and eDead
Viable? Yes.
Are there better options now? Absolutely.
Without mark of the bear:
pure DPS standpoint (all Ethereal): The Reaper's Toll no Decrepify < Ribcracker < Tomb Reaver (ED/IAS inside) < BotD Thunder Maul ~= Death Decapitator/ Glorious Axe < BotD Archon Staff < The Reaper's Toll with decrep
With Mark:
DPS + target standpoint: The Reaper's Toll no decrep < Ribcracker < Tomb Reaver < BotD Archon Staff < Reaper with Decrep (against <25% phys res) < BotD Thunder Maul ~= Death Decapitator < Reaper with Decrep (against >25% phys res) < BotD Thunder Maul against no phys res < Death against bosses
If you get a PM offer, post it in the trade. Promote healthy competition instead of settling for less.
Is Last Wish that bad or why don't you even list it ? 
I found a 15 ed non- Eth Glorious Axe and want to do something with - don't judge.
I found a 15 ed non- Eth Glorious Axe and want to do something with - don't judge.
I tried out Eth'd Reaper's Toll and Eth Decapitator and I prefer the former, because while it does less damage overall, with Bone Break physical immunities become just any other enemy. Not relying on my merc for Decrepify is a great QoL feature.
Here, just for you.xigua wrote: 11 months ago Is Last Wish that bad or why don't you even list it ?
I found a 15 ed non- Eth Glorious Axe and want to do something with - don't judge.
Last Wish any base + Phoenix <<< The Reaper's Toll with no decrep. We are talking about 1/4 to 1/3 of other weapon's total effectiveness.
For completion: Grief PB + Phoenix > The Reaper's Toll with no decrep.
Don't bother yourself with non-eth weapons. It sucks but it's not worth sweating over.
If you get a PM offer, post it in the trade. Promote healthy competition instead of settling for less.
:*(
my only 15% ed elite base I ever found pretty much worthless...
my only 15% ed elite base I ever found pretty much worthless...
How about LW in a 2-hand base?
Eth Reaper will do 376 avg dmg (229 that have) vs. LW 416.
Decrep - the problem I see with reaper is that it overwrites life-tap.
Eth Reaper will do 376 avg dmg (229 that have) vs. LW 416.
Decrep - the problem I see with reaper is that it overwrites life-tap.
It is the other way around. The problem with lw is that life-tap overwrites decrep:)
Outside of UT there is really no need for tap anywhere, while decrep is a huge dmg boost and a great QoL addition (basically you can just hold right click and kill everything).
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