So I was able to rush dual Mosaics just in time to respec and take down the 1st walk on America Ladder.
I basically had jumped in after the YouTube streamer hype videos, Schnorki extolling the P8 clearing virtues and I'm just starting to get into this thread.
It's an interesting build, even just using the barebones dual Mosaic and regular Gore Riders on my character. It feels very much like those D3 Rift builds that utilize Ingeom, having to rush between monster density to keep up charges. I think I like the sweeper potential, but It doesn't seem like it's going to be a very good Key runner, or solo MFer. I'm hoping to be able to use it to clear everywhere, cows, Ubers, on higher player difficulties.
I have some questions, may get answered as I read through, but to not waste time...
1) I'm using a Scissors Suwayyah and a Suwayyah. Both base 0 attack speed Claws. What IAS do I need to break into 4 frames? 3 frames?
2) How would using different base Claws with different base attack speeds effect things? IE: using a Scissor Suwayyah and a Greater Talon
3) I'm real barebones at the moment. Dual mosaics and regular gore riders. Where to build from this point? Up the gores, get MA Skillers, plus skills, watch my IAS?
4) There's so much going on in this build, I don't have enough button hotkeys on my PSN console controller, and I feel like I'm gonna need alot of Tokens to Respec. Is there anyone else building this from scratch and have any insights to skills? I'm pretty much button mashing charges on all Charge up skills, trying not to get 3 Phoenix Strike charges, and playing around with not using Fire Strike (EDIT: Reading you have to keep it below level ~34 to not get the Conversion to full fire damage) Seems like Tiger & Cobra are more important in the budget setups.
The IAS/Frames you can get off various calculators for your different claw options. Be that maxroll, warren or wherever.
Personally, I felt the best results were achieved at 4/9 frames on DT which kind of makes sense:
Sticking with 4 over 3 helps not run into the various next delays (which would effectively take you from 3 to 6) while 9 is the best you can get without moving the 4 down to 3. The difference wasn't massive but it felt noticeable. Especially without top-end gear (once you get that, it all kinda doesn't matter on mobs targets anyways). At 4 over 5 you may run into the occasional NHD issue when stuff moves towards you but realistically, that doesn't happen a lot. Bosses tend to be stationary in front of you, normal stuff tends to get frozen on the first hit so...4 is fine
Also ended up preferring 3-Charge PS over 2. Seems wrong and kinda should be wrong but it felt as though the bolt pathing was causing less NHD overlap than the lightning did. And hey, even if that part was imaginary..it still looks cooler.
Whenever leech didn't bug out but followed normal rules, fire was ultimately a simple question of gear. It does up your dmg against most targets but does by definition drop your leech even without any bugs. The higher it goes, the lower the leech, all the way down to 0. If/when that trade off is worth it depends on how much leech you need so is again a matter of gear/zone. At solid gear, 1 hard point seemed like a solid approach. Not only because it keeps your leech alive (albeit still quite reduced) but also because it ends up somewhat balancing the physical and the fire aspect of it which means you've got a decent amount of each on your targets and hence don't fully suffer from either, fire or phys immune in that regard (again not that it really matters once you get gear). Part of what made it such an interesting concept is that you literally had 4 dmg types flying around, saving you any worries about having to get a sunder or things like that.
As th3ory already very correctly pointed out though, there's plenty of different ways to make MA sins work exceptionally well now. And when built correctly, you have so much dmg to spare even with "only" 2 primary Charge ups, let alone 3, that you can very comfortably go for a well balanced allrounder build, throwing in a solid Shadow Master and such on top.
Th3ory wrote: 1 year ago
But the real question @Schnorki is....what you playing at reset?
Ok so...after a night of sleep...and a few more hours of sorting everything on NL (dear lord....), I just couldn't decide. So ultimately, the gods have now spoken...
image.png
Sometimes it is best to leave things up to chance. The RnG gods have spoken.
Luckily, the RNG gods weren't tooooo specific. So after getting the lvling done and the primary fire set to full BiS (not actually in that order)..I figured I have leeway to add a second, just for fun kind-of-fire set, to have something a tad different. And after getting that to full BiS as well..well, turns out DClone really doesn't like Arrows. So..that works.
S3 done I guess.
(Actually takes <20 Arrows to kill him..admittedly surprised by that)
So I need some confirmation:
In many cases when you are running fast Claws with -20 or -30 you will be at 3 frame Dragon Talon no matter what.
In that case (you can't always pick among arbitrary bases if you aren't already rich on the ladder):
Since only every other hit counts will Dragon Claw provide equal if not better dps with the added benefit of shorter animation lock?
Sure I'd need some extra ias, but say I hit with 12 frames Dragon Claw meaning one hit every 6 frame (can even go ham on ias for 11) according to my understanding of the situation it will be just as good.
Another potential benefit I can see is if the character isn't sufficiently decked out with +skills Dragon Talon will require hard skill points to get enough hits while Dragon Claw is just as good even at level 1.
If you go with DT and you end up "too fast" (which sadly is guaranteed with faster bases thanks to the inherent IAS on Mosaic) then those finishers not affected by NHD will hit every 3rd frame and the ones blocked by NHD4 will effectively hit every 6th as every other (3rd) frame is blocked by the delay for them. So that's "partially at 3, partially at 6 frames".
With DC, you can't just do a "12 frames = 1 every 6th" but you have to look at the action frames for each attack (citing maxroll for that info here, hoping they're not too far off):
Now, if you want any chance to be faster than DT you look at "12 or less" so the top ones are irrelevant. But even if you start at the marked 6/9/14 (which is the minimum with runic mosaics), you may notice something:
AF2 (2nd attack) is nearly always either 3 or 2 frames after AF1. What that would mean is that you don't actually make it past the 4-frame NHD with DC's 2nd attack and that basically reliably gets lost just as much as every other DT hit would. As a result, you gain nothing but lose a ton overall because the final number of attacks over time is far lower (best case '1 non-NHD hit in 10 frames', even if you add BoS).
The only exception to the above is at 5/9/14 and 5/9/13 as you do get 4 frames between AF1 and AF2 but since for both, the total frames is >12, you are still slower/get less non-NHD hits over time than with DT.
So long story short..DC bad, DT good even when too fast.
Insomnia wrote: 1 year ago
So I need some confirmation:
In many cases when you are running fast Claws with -20 or -30 you will be at 3 frame Dragon Talon no matter what.
In that case (you can't always pick among arbitrary bases if you aren't already rich on the ladder):
Since only every other hit counts will Dragon Claw provide equal if not better dps with the added benefit of shorter animation lock?
Sure I'd need some extra ias, but say I hit with 12 frames Dragon Claw meaning one hit every 6 frame (can even go ham on ias for 11) according to my understanding of the situation it will be just as good.
Another potential benefit I can see is if the character isn't sufficiently decked out with +skills Dragon Talon will require hard skill points to get enough hits while Dragon Claw is just as good even at level 1.
As Schnorki explained, it can definitely be a complex calculation. I do see certain instances where folks may prefer or like Dragon Claw. But many either tend to gravitate towards Dragon Talon or Dragon Tail. Only issue with Tail is there is a known Desync bug between server & client-side. Best thing you can always do is test into your play style and see what works for you.
What so many videos have shown is that Dual-Mosaics completely somewhat mitigate the NHD issue overall. You do hop/miss frames, but the speed and uptime of charges almost completely overrules.
Th3ory wrote: 1 year ago
What so many videos have shown is that Dual-Mosaics completely somewhat mitigate the NHD issue overall. You do hop/miss frames, but the speed and uptime of charges almost completely overrules.
What I do find interesting is there seems to be a sweetspot in terms of Dragon Talon's effectiveness when the 3 frame next hit delay issue is concerned.
Since the delay before the last kick is slower than the 4 frame nhd it always is effective.
1-2 kicks: 100% (hit-hit), all effective
3 kicks: 66.6% (hit-miss-hit), 2 effective worse than 2
4 kicks: 75% (hit-miss-hit-hit) 3 effective, best uptime
5 kicks: 60% (hit-miss-hit-miss-hit), 3 effective worst uptime
6 kicks: 66.6% (hit-miss-hit-miss-hit-hit) 4 effective next best practical uptime
Correct me if I am wrong.
The problem of course is on fully decked out characters you will be at or beyond 5 kicks so can't take advantage of the 4 kick Dragon Talon uptime.
Th3ory wrote: 1 year ago
What so many videos have shown is that Dual-Mosaics completely somewhat mitigate the NHD issue overall. You do hop/miss frames, but the speed and uptime of charges almost completely overrules.
What I do find interesting is there seems to be a sweetspot in terms of Dragon Talon's effectiveness when the 3 frame next hit delay issue is concerned.
Since the delay before the last kick is slower than the 4 frame nhd it always is effective.
1-2 kicks: 100% (hit-hit), all effective
3 kicks: 66.6% (hit-miss-hit), 2 effective worse than 2
4 kicks: 75% (hit-miss-hit-hit) 3 effective, best uptime
5 kicks: 60% (hit-miss-hit-miss-hit), 3 effective worst uptime
6 kicks: 66.6% (hit-miss-hit-miss-hit-hit) 4 effective next best practical uptime
Correct me if I am wrong.
The problem of course is on fully decked out characters you will be at or beyond 5 kicks so can't take advantage of the 4 kick Dragon Talon uptime.
You're missing the time factor. You shouldn't look at "hits per DT" but rather "hits per frames" which then gives you an actual factor of time.
Although the results are similar (hits = non-NHD hits):
You can scale that up indefinitely. Essentially what happens is when you use faster Claws (e.g. runics) for your Mosaic, you get 3 frames per non-last hit and 8 frames for the last (7 if you stack further IAS). As a result, the last hit always hits but for the ones leading up to it, only the odd ones do. So every time your # of kicks goes up you add 3 frames total duration (for one more non-last kick) but you only add a non-NHD hit every other time (when you reach a new even number of kicks total).
Because of that, the higher you go, the more you lose in terms of non-NHD hits over time. That does make 2 the ideal scenario, slowly getting worse from there in a decreasingly painful manner the higher you go.
Realistically, you won't get 2 on an MA sin simply because you need too much +skill to support all of your Charge-ups. 4 is more realistic as the 2nd best with 1 hard point.
4 is also typically more than enough to kill any non-boss you come up against (once geared properly), effectively making 4 the ideal in terms of both, non-NHD hits over time and minimizing lockout periods on trash.
What you're not considering here though is the bits not affected by NHD which will hit on every kick and will increase your dmg output with every added kick, not just every other. So simply saying "4 is better than 5" is a bit of a stretch without doing the math for that.
Though personally, from all of the testing I've done with it, I would simply say "1 hard point = ideal" because any kicks beyond what that gives you tend to simply lock you out for unnecessarily long periods of time on trash, costing you far more time along the way to a boss than those added kicks may save you on the boss itself.
There is one advantage to having 3 frames over 4 though in all of this (beyond of course the dmg pieces not affected by NHD to begin with). With an NHD of 4, attacking at 4 frames gives you a theoretical perfect damage cycle. However, that only works if mobs don't move. If your targets move towards you to any minimal extent, your next spreading hit would realistically not get there at 4 frames but at like 3.99 or whatever it ends up being (definitely too lazy to do "speed vs. distance vs. frames" math here but anything >0 will do), meaning you still suffer NHD. At that point, which isn't unrealistic necessarily, you're then suddenly looking at 8 frames to hit again whereas a 3-frame attack puts you at 6 by default which gives you a solid 2 frame buffer to account for movement.
Th3ory wrote: 1 year ago
What so many videos have shown is that Dual-Mosaics completely somewhat mitigate the NHD issue overall. You do hop/miss frames, but the speed and uptime of charges almost completely overrules.
What I do find interesting is there seems to be a sweetspot in terms of Dragon Talon's effectiveness when the 3 frame next hit delay issue is concerned.
Since the delay before the last kick is slower than the 4 frame nhd it always is effective.
1-2 kicks: 100% (hit-hit), all effective
3 kicks: 66.6% (hit-miss-hit), 2 effective worse than 2
4 kicks: 75% (hit-miss-hit-hit) 3 effective, best uptime
5 kicks: 60% (hit-miss-hit-miss-hit), 3 effective worst uptime
6 kicks: 66.6% (hit-miss-hit-miss-hit-hit) 4 effective next best practical uptime
Correct me if I am wrong.
The problem of course is on fully decked out characters you will be at or beyond 5 kicks so can't take advantage of the 4 kick Dragon Talon uptime.
You're missing the time factor. You shouldn't look at "hits per DT" but rather "hits per frames" which then gives you an actual factor of time.
Although the results are similar (hits = non-NHD hits):
image.png
You can scale that up indefinitely. Essentially what happens is when you use faster Claws (e.g. runics) for your Mosaic, you get 3 frames per non-last hit and 8 frames for the last (7 if you stack further IAS). As a result, the last hit always hits but for the ones leading up to it, only the odd ones do. So every time your # of kicks goes up you add 3 frames total duration (for one more non-last kick) but you only add a non-NHD hit every other time (when you reach a new even number of kicks total).
Because of that, the higher you go, the more you lose in terms of non-NHD hits over time. That does make 2 the ideal scenario, slowly getting worse from there in a decreasingly painful manner the higher you go.
Realistically, you won't get 2 on an MA sin simply because you need too much +skill to support all of your Charge-ups. 4 is more realistic as the 2nd best with 1 hard point.
4 is also typically more than enough to kill any non-boss you come up against (once geared properly), effectively making 4 the ideal in terms of both, non-NHD hits over time and minimizing lockout periods on trash.
What you're not considering here though is the bits not affected by NHD which will hit on every kick and will increase your dmg output with every added kick, not just every other. So simply saying "4 is better than 5" is a bit of a stretch without doing the math for that.
Though personally, from all of the testing I've done with it, I would simply say "1 hard point = ideal" because any kicks beyond what that gives you tend to simply lock you out for unnecessarily long periods of time on trash, costing you far more time along the way to a boss than those added kicks may save you on the boss itself.
There is one advantage to having 3 frames over 4 though in all of this (beyond of course the dmg pieces not affected by NHD to begin with). With an NHD of 4, attacking at 4 frames gives you a theoretical perfect damage cycle. However, that only works if mobs don't move. If your targets move towards you to any minimal extent, your next spreading hit would realistically not get there at 4 frames but at like 3.99 or whatever it ends up being (definitely too lazy to do "speed vs. distance vs. frames" math here but anything >0 will do), meaning you still suffer NHD. At that point, which isn't unrealistic necessarily, you're then suddenly looking at 8 frames to hit again whereas a 3-frame attack puts you at 6 by default which gives you a solid 2 frame buffer to account for movement.
As expected, always thorough and well documented. I would tend to agree on the 1 hard point into DT, but most likely you make your way to 3-frame contingent on skillers/+nskill gear.
And again, we need to remember that we are really talking about CoT/PS as two core primaries that have NHD impact, but Blades of Ice and others do not. So based on the sequencing of charges (your combinations), it may be more effective overall to push to the EIAS 3 frames given that the NHD is really only ~.16 seconds so it moves fast even if you are missing.
And the Key point is, the faster you go, you don't get locked up as much as Schorki called out so there is a give & take if you try to manipulate it to 4-frame kicking.
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