I lost interest in D2R because of Sunder charms

Whoot, I took a couple days off the internet to work and whoa...

I was just saying the other day “where are the rare charms? Just add those and I’d be happy”

But then these sunder ones... I agree in Principle with the original poster (who has given me excellent advice on this forum) I don’t know if these charms are the best idea. But I will wait to see how everything falls out. it’s just ptr after all, they’ve rolled back things before.

If these charms are super rare they may be ok, although I don’t think you’d need physical, magic or lightning versions, you’ve got ways to break those already, or they are rare enough you won’t need to break them.

If the fire and Ice immune breakers were rare or difficult to get on par with Infinity, deaths web, griffons and decrep/amp damage procs , sure - at least from a ssf perspective.

I’m still hoping we can get the devs to work on what really would be nice, a gd loot filter and currency tab!

Seriously...

I bet everyone, everyone can agree if we had a choice between

Terror zones with sunder charms or a loot filter with a currency tab everyone would be on the loot filter and currency tab team! Am I right?!

Nate wrote: 2 years ago

I bet everyone, everyone can agree if we had a choice between

Terror zones with sunder charms or a loot filter with a currency tab everyone would be on the loot filter and currency tab team! Am I right?!

Oh god no.

Having to pick from that list, it'd be "

Terror zones and nothing else". Or just "nothing".

But removing the loot juggling that has been a central part of D2 for two decades? Removing the iconic "mass flood of (albeit random) items" from blowing up a screen of mobs? Yeah, yeah "it'd be optional, just turn it off!" but we all know it wouldn't really be, same way pickit wasn't optional back in the day. No thanks.

For those who are unfamiliar with what Sunder Charms are.

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

Nate wrote: 2 years ago

I bet everyone, everyone can agree if we had a choice between

Terror zones with sunder charms or a loot filter with a currency tab everyone would be on the loot filter and currency tab team! Am I right?!

Oh god no.

Having to pick from that list, it'd be "

Terror zones and nothing else". Or just "nothing".

But removing the loot juggling that has been a central part of D2 for two decades? Removing the iconic "mass flood of (albeit random) items" from blowing up a screen of mobs? Yeah, yeah "it'd be optional, just turn it off!" but we all know it wouldn't really be, same way pickit wasn't optional back in the day. No thanks.

hmm... naw, terrorzones are fine. too easy for me.
regarding qol, stackable common items would be nice, not game breaking, not Lore breaking (for all ya nerds) and just a good change.
lootfilter... hm, not really, I would prefer 1 other colour for gems, nothing too fancy.

currency tab is diablo3, so no. I want the games separate.

Yeh, pretty much agreed with that. Stackable runes and gems would be great, no particular desire for more stash tabs and definitely don't care about a loot filter. Mainly would like some more character slots, and I love the idea of

Terror Zones in theory but don't love how they seem to be implementing them.

Stackable runes and gems, with a max number on its slot (would like 10, but 5 would already be interesting) would save a lot of space already. Basically all these could take 1 tab instead of the current 2 shared + 2 mules I have... and would save part of the issue with char slots.

It would also make trading them in bulk alot easier

Ravoc wrote: 2 years ago

It would also make trading them in bulk alot easier

Not that sure. I imagine that if you drag and drop on the stack, you just increase the counter (e.g. 4 perfect amethysts to 5).
And the reverse way when you pull from the stack (or Ctrl Click) you just take one PAm on your cursor and reduce the counter by 1.

So I wanted to think something through here. All of my data comes from here: https://diablo-archive.fandom.com/wiki/ ... Diablo_II)

Let's look at where we are already with immunities and breaking them.

Magic: 6 immune monsters
Nothing can break magic immune, so pure magic cannot do

Baal wave 4, but apart from that they are clear to roam the game.

Light: 75 immune monsters
There are only 12 monsters that cannot have lightning immunity broken with just a

Lower Resist

Wand, and 1 that cannot break with only Infinity. Lightning can go anywhere with Infinity

Fire: 101 immune monsters
There are 44 monster immunities can cannot break with

Lower Resist, and 9 that cannot break with Infinity. However with both fire can go anywhere except for megademons, (and can we just take a second to thank the person who said "we need a

Megademon!").

Cold: 65 immune monsters
Here's the kicker. Cold has 20 monsters that cannot be broken with Infinity and

Lower Resist. Cold is relegated to just a few areas they can farm in unless they have a merc that can kill for them.

Poison: 97 immune monsters
There are 33 poison immune monsters that cannot break with

Lower Resist. I have never run poison so I can't speak to what it's like to play a poison class.

I have tested the cold sorc on PTR and man, she swings so far the other way. My cold sorc basically felt useless and 3/4 of the game was locked off to her, now the PRT sorc just doesn't care. Mr LlamaSC has suggested that

Cold Mastery needs to switch to "adds to damage" the same way the other masteries do, and I'm kind of leaning that way. The sorc I tested had -120 cold resist or so with the

Cold Mastery and man, everything just died. I even got an

Diablo Clone kill with her while I was testing (quite a shock when that text came across the screen).


Now what I wanted to discuss. When it comes to top top top tier builds, what is the difference between doing 10,000 to 20,000 damage instead of 5,000 to 10,000 damage. Most monsters health is around 5,000 to 7,000. Some go up to 17,000 with really good block and physical resist stats. But on the whole, even doubling the damage you do, as you can with the cold sorc, what's the difference? Most monsters die to one blizzard (assuming not immune), already, maybe 2.

What I believe the sunder charms will do, is make non top tier classes viable. Have a fire druid? Well now he can do the rest of the game. Playing different classes is fun. The first time I played D2 after getting it for myself I played as a fire druid with my best friend at school who played as a summon druid. The game was great. And then we got to hell and went, "well time to make a different class." Now those classes can play end game.

To counter my previous point a bit, these charms will not affect playing through the game, only end game. So learning to play around those immunities is still a huge part of the game. One that I absolutely love. D2 would be a much worse game without them.

TLDR;
We can already beat immunities.
The charms will allow other classes to play through the rest of the game
The charms will allow non viable classes to at least be playable.

Thank you for your time.

The problem is that sunder charms are too lazy solution to every problem. Instead of actually rebalancing class skills or immunities they just left in every broken mechanic, underused skill, underpowered skills etc and solved all of that with Sunder Charms.

Also physical damage builds remain broken, trapsins are also neglected. I guess physical builds would have to run around with amp damage charges /

Atma scarab proc or deal 5% of regular damage instead. Nice.

The thing is, I did not want fire builds to be weak, I did not want the solution to this was Sunder Charm + Infinity as it takes away from the game too much.

I like what they did with fire druid for example for FOH paladin, that was great.

There were other solutions to immunities problem, for example (just the ideas to show what I have in mind, I did not think all of them thoroughly, just the examples):
- When using fire skills,

Cold Mastery and

Lightning Mastery could convert / add % of your fire damage to cold or lightning. Interesting and has a skill tradeoff? Yes. You could have Hydras with increased damage that shoot fire + lightning or fire + cold. Also add some runeword in a shield that adds +oskill to all masteries and FCR (but with no FHR) so it could be used instead of Spirit
- Palain Fire aura could also have +physical or increase attack rating by a lot (also have synergy with

Blessed Aim) - same with cold aura (cold aura could have -% to enemy defense / hit instead)
- Hammers could rely on attack rating (so you either run around with

Concentration for damage or

Blessed Aim for accuracy)
- Make

Thorns take % of enemy max life instead of % of damage dealt (also make it work on physical immunes) - so you could actually make a "martyr" build that works
-

Zeal could synergize with

Vengeance and have some elemental damage added (solved physical immunities for physical

Zeal)
-

Rabies could also have some AOE or create a poison cloud with each hit
-

Magic Arrow could add % magic damage to

Strafe and multishot (the same way as

Berserk adds to

Frenzy, also that synergy could have been increased),

Guided Arrow could have been nerfed for PvP
- Improve underperforming crafts (Blood Weapons, Hit Power weapons to be able to roll 800+ enhanced damage, so physical builds actually would have great single target damage)
- Make all weapon crafts add +% physical damage converted to ele damage (different crafts - different element), allow crafting in all types of weapons
- Allow necro to summon all 4 types of golems at the same time (similar to summon druid), so summoner can have Infinity

Iron Golem and still use

Clay Golem when needed
- Remove

Bone Spear synergy with

Bone Prison and

Bone Wall, so more skill points are available, buff it's damage, have -2% to enemy magic resistance / slvl
- Buff safety crafts to have some counter to that ^ in PvP
- Make fire / lightning traps synergize so they add fire/lightning damage to each other (just make all ele skills synergize that way in all characters, so there would a tradeoff - more damage coming from the same element, or less but from a few different elements)
- Add splash damage to

Berserk and

Concentrate
- Buff attack rating (so you need less to hit monsters) - elemental skills always hit, physical have % chance to fail all the time
- Add runewords and uniques that convert % of your physical/elemental damage to something else (so you deal less damage with your primary element, but have some dmg in a different element)
- After all that reduce

Conviction lvl on Infinity
- Make

Terror Zone open up after cubing some runes (different recipes for different areas), but increase the monster density by A LOT. This way players could still grind their 97 lvl as usual, then offer player services to be a bumper Also there would be much more player agency in enjoying

Terror Zones, because you can just pick what you want to farm at a given moment. Or make some superunique monsters drop some new ingredients (like essences) to open them up, so you can lvl up without

Terror Zones, accumulate

Terror Essences, then finish the grind from 97-99 in

Terror Zones
- etc etc
^ those are just some random ideas which I came up on the spot, there were many ways to address immunities issues and keep the game balanced and interesting, open up some more build possibilities, but instead they did what they did. It is so disappointing

I was counting on rebalancing skills and their synergies in a similar way, adding new runewords etc. Instead you have Sunder Charm + Infinity as an answer to everything. Not good. I did not play this game just to just kill stuff, but also to figure out the builds.

Now the part that was the most interesting to me is taken out. That is the issue.

So still, you are addressing the wrong issue with your arguments. The primary issue for me is HOW those game imbalances were addressed - IMO in a lazy one-size-fits-all way. They did not address issues with the game, just left every broken thing as-is and instead added a workaround to all that. This is the thing that takes away my enjoyment and directs the game into the territory that is not interesting for me.

I just had a quick read over and it sounds like you want every class to deal every damage type. Or at least several. This is no long diablo anymore.

Also I don't really understand why you think physical builds are so bad. I have a physical bowazon and she has 0 difficulty with physical immunes. I don't use atmas, or amp damage/

Decrepify procs. I use my 1 point in

Magic Arrow and she kills everything in about 30 seconds instead of 5. I read earlier that

Concentrate barbs can add

Berserk, (forgive any errors I never play barb), to add magic damage and they're fine. There really aren't that many physical immune monsters out there.
I only know of 1 physical class that has difficulty with higher level play and that is martial sin. I haven't tested the new changes they made to her, but I played one years ago and she legit could not beat hell.

Your point I'm hearing a lot is you dislike that there is one option as it stands, sunder plus Infinity. But that was all through D2 before sunder. Want to play as a mage class? Better get that Spirit, hoto,

Arachnid Mesh soj etc. Physical build? Grief, Fortitude,

Gore Rider etc. There are ways to mix those builds, but these are the go to's. And let's not talk about Enigma.

My advice. Find a cracked version of D2 1.0. It was hard as balls and I loved it. No Immunities but man, that game punished you hard. Great game.

what's fun about this game is how imbalanced it is. in a way that mobs are overpowering, unless you are using farm builds.

I guess i can sympathize with @louner

but as as someone who got his ass whooped in hell with crancky builds, i would love to get my hands on this...just for these builds. for the stronger builds it won't matter, as was said.

also, you get a debuff of -75%?? in hell...phew.. that sounds risky even to put the charm on. it means you need like 300% total resistances to survive.

davme_mcreg wrote: 2 years ago

I just had a quick read over and it sounds like you want every class to deal every damage type. Or at least several. This is no long diablo anymore.

I think you just want to read what you want to read. I explained what i meant and want several times. Also what the issue for me is and it’s not what you are pointing out.

Also later you suggested me to go and play something else (Diablo 1.0), so you are just pushing me away instead of trying to hear my point. I will probably just switch games, but it’s a pity that that’s what I get. Not nice, not productive.

To me it looks like you drew your own conclusions about what I said instead of understanding my point and you are discussing with that, not with me. I want D2R to progress and those issues to be solved, but not in the way they currently try to solve them <- THAT is the issue. In general when I try to bring that point people try to prove to me that some builds are favored and fire builds are not - which I agree with, BUT that is not the case itself I am bringing up. I want this to be solved, but in a different way - that preserves the game "rock-paper-scissors" attitude to skills, classes and challenges it gives to the player, not to slap a universal solution to everything (just one charm as a band-aid, while most of the underperforming skills are left as broken). This is what I am missing, what I don't like and for me that takes away a big chunk of the game away, because it oversimplifies the final builds and just puts all the issues with skills, items, uniques, crafts, rares etc under the rug.

Also they are not really discussing this with the community. They just ask for opinions after they implemented something, if community disagrees they just tweak it slightly (or not at all) and release it anyway (at least it worked like that so far).

I really feel you about these changes. I think they are a step into wrong direction.
I will probably not go as far as completely stopping to play - at least for now, but I can definitely see these changes pushing me there.
On the bright side, I might finally get other things done in my life .

The game was already great, I think it's sad that they push such impactful controversial changes.

Alright, that's fair. I absolutely suggested you go play something else. I've been very vocal that the community of warhammer (in my area anyways), just push new people away and that is not something I want to do. So thanks for calling me out. Honestly, no sarcasm here. So since you say I am misunderstanding you, let's discuss.

louner wrote: 2 years ago

Also physical damage builds remain broken, trapsins are also neglected. I guess physical builds would have to run around with amp damage charges /

Atma scarab proc or deal 5% of regular damage instead. Nice.
- Improve underperforming crafts (Blood Weapons, Hit Power weapons to be able to roll 800+ enhanced damage, so physical builds actually would have great single target damage)
- Add splash damage to

Berserk and

Concentrate
- Make all weapon crafts add +% physical damage converted to ele damage (different crafts - different element), allow crafting in all types of weapons

Here you make it quite clear that physical damage builds need help. My point was that physical damage builds are the least impacted by sunder charms because there are so few physical immune monsters in the game.

You also mention trapsins are neglected, and they are. It is clear that assassin traps (as well as sorc hydras), do not gain the benefit of a sunder charm so they are left far behind. However I do not expect this will stay this way. I believe they will find a way to have the assassin traps and sorc hydras included.

louner wrote: 2 years ago

There were other solutions to immunities problem, for example (just the ideas to show what I have in mind, I did not think all of them thoroughly, just the examples):
- When using fire skills,

Cold Mastery and

Lightning Mastery could convert / add % of your fire damage to cold or lightning. Interesting and has a skill tradeoff? Yes. You could have Hydras with increased damage that shoot fire + lightning or fire + cold. Also add some runeword in a shield that adds +oskill to all masteries and FCR (but with no FHR) so it could be used instead of Spirit
- Palain Fire aura could also have +physical or increase attack rating by a lot (also have synergy with

Blessed Aim) - same with cold aura (cold aura could have -% to enemy defense / hit instead)
-

Zeal could synergize with

Vengeance and have some elemental damage added (solved physical immunities for physical

Zeal)
-

Magic Arrow could add % magic damage to

Strafe and multishot (the same way as

Berserk adds to

Frenzy, also that synergy could have been increased),

Guided Arrow could have been nerfed for PvP
- Make fire / lightning traps synergize so they add fire/lightning damage to each other (just make all ele skills synergize that way in all characters, so there would a tradeoff - more damage coming from the same element, or less but from a few different elements)
- Add runewords and uniques that convert % of your physical/elemental damage to something else (so you deal less damage with your primary element, but have some dmg in a different element)
- Make all weapon crafts add +% physical damage converted to ele damage (different crafts - different element), allow crafting in all types of weapons

Here you are saying that the elemental skills should have other elemental damages (or physical damage for fire aura), added to them. Which is what I meant when I said you wanted the classes to do other elemental damage.

louner wrote: 2 years ago

- Hammers could rely on attack rating (so you either run around with

Concentration for damage or

Blessed Aim for accuracy)
- Buff attack rating (so you need less to hit monsters) - elemental skills always hit, physical have % chance to fail all the time

If we follow the logic of this, then all spells should logically have a "to hit" calculation. The reason that spells do not have a "to hit" calculation is because in diablo 2 1.0 you could not buy mana potions, and the potions themselves have a very low drop rate. Magic was not something to spam, it was something to be conserved. If you're interested go watch someone play a sorc in D2 1.0, it really is a different game from now in regards to spells.

louner wrote: 2 years ago

- After all that reduce

Conviction lvl on Infinity

I don't understand why you added this?

louner wrote: 2 years ago

- Make

Terror Zone open up after cubing some runes (different recipes for different areas), but increase the monster density by A LOT. This way players could still grind their 97 lvl as usual, then offer player services to be a bumper Also there would be much more player agency in enjoying

Terror Zones, because you can just pick what you want to farm at a given moment. Or make some superunique monsters drop some new ingredients (like essences) to open them up, so you can lvl up without

Terror Zones, accumulate

Terror Essences, then finish the grind from 97-99 in

Terror Zones

I like this, I really do. But it does feel like the rifts of D3 TBH which makes me like it less, but some way to choose where the

Terror zones are would be nice. I have areas of the game that I hate playing in and I would just not play if those areas were terrorized.

louner wrote: 2 years ago

^ those are just some random ideas which I came up on the spot, there were many ways to address immunities issues and keep the game balanced and interesting, open up some more build possibilities, but instead they did what they did. It is so disappointing

I was counting on rebalancing skills and their synergies in a similar way, adding new runewords etc. Instead you have Sunder Charm + Infinity as an answer to everything. Not good. I did not play this game just to just kill stuff, but also to figure out the builds.

This right here is my main point of concern. I did not address most of the things above in my previous post because trying to argue against individual points is moot when compared to this. Rebalancing all skills to make all classes viable and equal would take so much time, and most importantly money, that they will never do it, in my opinion. The game doesn't make enough money. Blizzard cannot keep WOW or their other shooters balanced which bring in money on a scale D2 could never see.

Those were the examples to illustrate my point and said I do not want those skills to be modified exactly as I stated and I didn't even try to think them through in terms of balance (I just came up with something on the spot at that moment). By those illustrative points I just wanted to show that the existing skills and items need to be the focus and the solution because they are broken and there is a lot wiggle room in improving them, not just ignoring them and adding item that bypasses all those issues.

Once they got that done and everyone happy it would be ok to add something new, but not in a way that just turns the game around and leaves all the stuff that doesn't work behind as-is. And it just looks like this is the direction they have taken.

I wish there was some discussion about specific skills and incremental changes (to be sure the quality is up there) accepted by the community (from the Blizzard side) instead of just imposing one charm and

Terror Zones to "fix" all of this in the span of 2 weeks. If they wanted to make drastic game changes like those instead (without really testing them or asking first or consulting those with more people than just a few streamers probably), I think they just should have introduced a new game mode or make a hard fork somewhere. So far they just imposed something on players (even some PvP changes in 2.4), then asked "how do you like it?" and if people did not like those, they cosmetically tweaked them released that anyway - so I do not not have high hopes here either.

So far sunder charms sunder D2R itself and it's community instead of fixing the game issues.

Don't go too hôtel on this discussion, guys, as:
- no idea what they will really send to production
- no chance Blizzard reads actually this. It's probably the biggest issue in their process, they could truly rely on the community's common intelligence and they just don't.
So we have to wait and see.
And Louner, don't quit I have not done some split mf with you yet ! ^^

I think increasing the level requirement to 90+ would be nice for the sunder charms, then they really are just an end game luxury item. Or an even bigger penalty for wearing them, make them so big that they fill the entire inventory :p

I have a other Problem with this new Charms. I always wanted a char with a "all-destroying-fire-hot-build". Now i can finally build my fire sorc, fire druid, fire pala etc. or maybe i could try to play a sumon necro again in the hope he is now faster in killspeed. But i have not enough char slots left to play all the chars i want

Necrarch makes several good points. Blizzard is definitely not going to read any of these lol . And also, playing the game with people is fun. Perhaps that can be enough for you to keep playing.