I lost interest in D2R because of Sunder charms

The fact that they are coming just killed the enjoyment from the game for me. And it seems like they will introduce them as is.

Why? The big part of the game for me was to be forced to play specific builds to clear specific areas. I never wanted to play whatever I want, I wanted to find solutions to challenges the game gives me. I tried to make every obscure character work in some way and I started to look into more obscure runewords like Prudence, Wrath, stacking Magic Damage Reduction and other stats that are overlooked etc. Now it looks like the solution to everything will be Sunder charm + Infinity (or Bramble).

So that takes the entire enjoyment from the game. I also don’t want to play with second-best gear choices. The moment I know that Sunder + Infinity would be the best option, playing something else would give no satisfaction to me. And I just don’t want to play the game like that. I wanted to be challenged in some way.

I also always looked at resistances as ingenious way to encourage coop. It was some another puzzle to solve on how to pick characters to clear specific areas. Now anything goes, slap on Sunder Charm, Infinity and you are good to go with any character.

You will play through the game with fire pala with no issues, fire Bowa with no issues, fire Druid no issues, then what? Switch sunder charm to a different char, then it gets boring. It doesn’t fit D2R to me at all.

Also

Terror Zones - on one hand they are good but on the other you won’t be farming what YOU want, instead you will be farming what the game picks for you (if you want to stay as efficient as possible), so I see that as less player agency (it's like herding the players - first go here, then go there etc). Also pls don't tell me I can just ignore them. I already explained that playing sub-optimally gives me no satisfaction. I want the optimal play to be something different than sunder +

Terror.

If you like that then good for you, but for me it changes the game far too much, takes out the most enjoyable aspects from it and leaves out just the monster killing, no theorycrafting and interesting builds needed, no challenge at all, so I’m out.

Edit:

I think they should just make a hard fork of the game at this point or introduce a new mode. Like "softcore" / "hardcore" / "no immunities mode" (that also drops amulets with +1 to

Teleport, so players do not grumble about getting HRs). This way everyone will be happy.

I certainly don't feel the same way as you but I don't like the sound of these charms at all, I hope they remove or drastically change them based on PTR feedback.

So on one hand, you wish to challenge yourself and find ways to overcome the obstacles the game throws at you, but on the other, you don't wish to NOT play with the BiS gear (Sunder + Infinity in this example), because this will somehow bring no satisfaction to you? I mean, well, the way I see it, you are your own limitation to enjoying the game.

ALLEyezOnMe wrote: 2 years ago

So on one hand, you wish to challenge yourself and find ways to overcome the obstacles the game throws at you, but on the other, you don't wish to NOT play with the BiS gear (Sunder + Infinity in this example), because this will somehow bring no satisfaction to you? I mean, well, the way I see it, you are your own limitation to enjoying the game.

No, I will never try to force myself to enjoy the game. If I don’t like something in a game, I’m just out and it’s not my fault. I only try to find ways to enjoy something or motivate myself into something when that thing actually matters.

Let’s upgrade chess so pawns can go backwards. Or upgrade pieces so they can go in any direction. You end up with checkers basically. similar thing happens with D2R for me.

louner wrote: 2 years ago

ALLEyezOnMe wrote: 2 years ago

So on one hand, you wish to challenge yourself and find ways to overcome the obstacles the game throws at you, but on the other, you don't wish to NOT play with the BiS gear (Sunder + Infinity in this example), because this will somehow bring no satisfaction to you? I mean, well, the way I see it, you are your own limitation to enjoying the game.

If I don’t like something in a game, I’m just out and it’s not my fault.

I love that

Ye, the concept to try to change my character (like my personal character ) or to try and motivate myself to start enjoying whatever game gives me (essentially reworking my personality, so I can enjoy the game) is just sick and f****d up for me. That's all. I will save that energy for something that matters.

Back into the game topic. Yes, I want to find the best possible slot for the given build, I don't like that it's almost always Infinity + Sunder now. There were more options before that change and more incentive to try out different characters for me (because I couldn't clear the game with just one, so I had to make several instead). By comparison Hammerdin seems like a more interesting option now.

I get it that it will appeal more to players that are more casual and do not want to dig into the game mechanics, so probably they want to change the player base. This is fine, but I am not part of that new player base. That is now taken away from the game, so it automatically stopped being enjoyable for me - those were the things I liked the most about the game, they are gone, I am gone.

Looks like Sunder charms are ladder only, so nothing to worry about yet, given you're non ladder. And you never know, they might get enough negative feedback to take it out so it never makes it to NL (highly unlikely, but possible).

Or could just be not as good as they're hoping, and no one decides to use them. I personally don't think I'll have a need for any on my Barb. Can just knock Phys Immunes out instantly with

Berserk, and no issues with other immunes.

And the debuff is also pretty unappealing: "However, it’s important to note that each of the charms also includes a debuff that makes your character more vulnerable to the type of damage the charm focuses on. The

Bone Break, for example, sunders monsters’ physical damage immunity – but it also increases the physical damage its carrier receives by 25%"

But you know the saying: "Don't knock it 'til you try it!"

It depends on how rare those Sunders are.
If they are as rare as griffon, that would be fine for me.
Sunder + Infinity is similar to Griffon + Infinity but for other casters.

louner wrote: 2 years ago

The fact that they are coming just killed the enjoyment from the game for me. And it seems like they will introduce them as is.

Why? The big part of the game for me was to be forced to play specific builds to clear specific areas. I never wanted to play whatever I want, I wanted to find solutions to challenges the game gives me. I tried to make every obscure character work in some way and I started to look into more obscure runewords like Prudence, Wrath, stacking Magic Damage Reduction and other stats that are overlooked etc. Now it looks like the solution to everything will be Sunder charm + Infinity (or Bramble).

So that takes the entire enjoyment from the game. I also don’t want to play with second-best gear choices. The moment I know that Sunder + Infinity would be the best option, playing something else would give no satisfaction to me. And I just don’t want to play the game like that. I wanted to be challenged in some way.

it seems you me you forget something here.

there are builds that clear everything in mere seconds without Infinity or sunder charms. I know I keep bringing up my dreamer and yet again, here we are. I built him as a zealer, not the foh variant. he does not need a merc whatsoever and he bashes every mob in the game down in mere seconds. dia,

Baal,

Lilith you name it. ubers alone - fuck em. ubers in p8 - fuck em. gloams/Black souls heal him and stygian dolls explode in the lightning aura.

sunder charms will change absolutely nothing for him.

the only thing that changes with the charms is that weak builds have a chance to clear hell. and that is not a bad thing to do.

While I won't claim sunder charms are a great idea (albeit one asked for by plenty of folks across the official forums who wanted immunities removed), I honestly don't get your arguments.

First off, "sunder + Bramble" makes no sense as a comparison to Infinity. Bramble does nothing to further drop resistances, it merely adds the same dmg increase it does now. Basing that on a crappy 95% res left prior immune..will still suck.

Imagine for a second facets didn't exist. Imagine further that things like

Death's Web didn't exist. Basically, imagine -res didn't exist anywhere outside of

Conviction and lower res.
You know what would happen? Immunes would slow you down. Massively. Why? Because you'd be stuck at the 92-98ish % res left after the immunity is broken which means you'd do utter crap damage (by farming standards), even as one of the strongest dmg dealers out there. That's basically where sunder charms put you. And for many builds (basically anything physical and magic based), that's all you get. That's a lot of builds for whom little to nothing changes (I for one have no intention of using these charms on more than 2 out of my 7 chars..probably even only 1 actually).

For everyone else..yes, adding

Conviction on top of sunder is a massive dmg boost. But no more than it already is now on non-immunes (which is usually the bulk of your farming anyways). Imo,

Conviction is no more or less obligatory than it already is for those same builds that already rely on it.

Is it ridiculous for a couple of already meta builds? Yes. Is it a significant buff to many other builds, taking them closer to top-end builds? Yes. Does it change little to nothing for many other builds, making a lot of them even worse than they already are by relative comparison? Sadly, also yes. So all in all..certainly not a fan of the idea but it is nowhere near as impactful across the board as people claim.

And as for farming where you want..what? If you go for max efficiency (as you yourself noted as the condition) then you do NOT farm where you want now. You farm in the handful of top-lvl zones that match your build perfectly. You have very little choice in that.

Terror zones merely add a new level of higher efficiency, forcing you into a different (but at least rotating) "imposed zone" to utilize it. I'd argue it actually gives you more variety and choice as compared to now due to the rotation and existing choices still being no worse than they are now. Add sunder on top of that and you can actually pick any of those zones now (well, if you're a sunder-using build) as opposed to only the ones matching your build. From the viewpoint of "I wanna pick where to do my farming!" these changes are exactly what you're asking for tbh.


PS:
You really don't have to "build for an area" now. Literally any of the better builds out there and even the mediocre to slightly bad ones can easily clear every single zone in the game once you get some decent to solid gear for them/their merc. And if you're planning without gear...well, then you won't have sunder either so no difference there.

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

While I won't claim sunder charms are a great idea (albeit one asked for by plenty of folks across the official forums who wanted immunities removed), I honestly don't get your arguments.

First off, "sunder + Bramble" makes no sense as a comparison to Infinity. Bramble does nothing to further drop resistances, it merely adds the same dmg increase it does now. Basing that on a crappy 95% res left prior immune..will still suck.

Imagine for a second facets didn't exist. Imagine further that things like

Death's Web didn't exist. Basically, imagine -res didn't exist anywhere outside of

Conviction and lower res.
You know what would happen? Immunes would slow you down. Massively. Why? Because you'd be stuck at the 92-98ish % res left after the immunity is broken which means you'd do utter crap damage (by farming standards), even as one of the strongest dmg dealers out there. That's basically where sunder charms put you. And for many builds (basically anything physical and magic based), that's all you get. That's a lot of builds for whom little to nothing changes (I for one have no intention of using these charms on more than 2 out of my 7 chars..probably even only 1 actually).

For everyone else..yes, adding

Conviction on top of sunder is a massive dmg boost. But no more than it already is now on non-immunes (which is usually the bulk of your farming anyways). Imo,

Conviction is no more or less obligatory than it already is for those same builds that already rely on it.

Is it ridiculous for a couple of already meta builds? Yes. Is it a significant buff to many other builds, taking them closer to top-end builds? Yes. Does it change little to nothing for many other builds, making a lot of them even worse than they already are by relative comparison? Sadly, also yes. So all in all..certainly not a fan of the idea but it is nowhere near as impactful across the board as people claim.

And as for farming where you want..what? If you go for max efficiency (as you yourself noted as the condition) then you do NOT farm where you want now. You farm in the handful of top-lvl zones that match your build perfectly. You have very little choice in that.

Terror zones merely add a new level of higher efficiency, forcing you into a different (but at least rotating) "imposed zone" to utilize it. I'd argue it actually gives you more variety and choice as compared to now due to the rotation and existing choices still being no worse than they are now. Add sunder on top of that and you can actually pick any of those zones now (well, if you're a sunder-using build) as opposed to only the ones matching your build. From the viewpoint of "I wanna pick where to do my farming!" these changes are exactly what you're asking for tbh.


PS:
You really don't have to "build for an area" now. Literally any of the better builds out there and even the mediocre to slightly bad ones can easily clear every single zone in the game once you get some decent to solid gear for them/their merc. And if you're planning without gear...well, then you won't have sunder either so no difference there.

from what @schnorki said, I also get the feeling that y'all want to use

Conviction for like *everything* concerning elemental resistances.

personally, I use Infinity to break lightning immunity only and for nothing else and exclusively for chars that use lightning as damage and never for anything else.
why? because it is unnecessary.
if you have a build with 8k+ damage

Conviction becomes irrelevant, except for one point: break the lightning immunity to actually be able to do damage to the mob.

Crispin wrote: 2 years ago

from what @schnorki said, I also get the feeling that y'all want to use

Conviction for like *everything* concerning elemental resistances.

personally, I use Infinity to break lightning immunity only and for nothing else and exclusively for chars that use lightning as damage and never for anything else.
why? because it is unnecessary.
if you have a build with 8k+ damage

Conviction becomes irrelevant, except for one point: break the lightning immunity to actually be able to do damage to the mob.

Well, it is still a massive dmg buff against non-immunes for multiple builds.

That having been said..across 7 chars, I use 0 Infinities and will use 1-2 sunder charms (more likely just 1).
My new likeliest ladder char would use both but even that only leaves 1 Infinity and 2-3 sunder charms across 8 chars. That's basically nothing, if you compare it to things like Enigma (4 over those same 8 chars), Fortitude (9) or even Spirit (11).

Crispin wrote: 2 years ago

from what @schnorki said, I also get the feeling that y'all want to use

Conviction for like *everything* concerning elemental resistances.

personally, I use Infinity to break lightning immunity only and for nothing else and exclusively for chars that use lightning as damage and never for anything else.
why? because it is unnecessary.
if you have a build with 8k+ damage

Conviction becomes irrelevant, except for one point: break the lightning immunity to actually be able to do damage to the mob.

Infinity will be way better now that it won't be used to break the lightning immunity of monsters, but instead to bring it further down from 95%, which will translate into a huge damage boost for my

Nova sorceress (for example).

The same would apply to all elemental damage dealers (apart from the Cold Sorceress) that relied on Infinity to break the immunities of the monsters.

In this sense, Infinity will become even more valuable with the introduction of the Sunder charms.

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

Crispin wrote: 2 years ago

from what @schnorki said, I also get the feeling that y'all want to use

Conviction for like *everything* concerning elemental resistances.

personally, I use Infinity to break lightning immunity only and for nothing else and exclusively for chars that use lightning as damage and never for anything else.
why? because it is unnecessary.
if you have a build with 8k+ damage

Conviction becomes irrelevant, except for one point: break the lightning immunity to actually be able to do damage to the mob.

Well, it is still a massive dmg buff against non-immunes for multiple builds.

That having been said..across 7 chars, I use 0 Infinities and will use 1-2 sunder charms (more likely just 1).
My new likeliest ladder char would use both but even that only leaves 1 Infinity and 2-3 sunder charms across 8 chars. That's basically nothing, if you compare it to things like Enigma (4 over those same 8 chars), Fortitude (9) or even Spirit (11).

I know that the damage boost is huge, however with an already strong char it becomes irrelevant. you hardly notice any difference with a strong char.
that's what I mean. it was unclear to me that people wanna use

Conviction for everything... didn't have that experience because a strong char just doesn't need it :shrug:

ALLEyezOnMe wrote: 2 years ago

Crispin wrote: 2 years ago

from what @schnorki said, I also get the feeling that y'all want to use

Conviction for like *everything* concerning elemental resistances.

personally, I use Infinity to break lightning immunity only and for nothing else and exclusively for chars that use lightning as damage and never for anything else.
why? because it is unnecessary.
if you have a build with 8k+ damage

Conviction becomes irrelevant, except for one point: break the lightning immunity to actually be able to do damage to the mob.

Infinity will be way better now that it won't be used to break the lightning immunity of monsters, but instead to bring it further down from 95%, which will translate into a huge damage boost for my

Nova sorceress (for example).

The same would apply to all elemental damage dealers (apart from the Cold Sorceress) that relied on Infinity to break the immunities of the monsters.

In this sense, Infinity will become even more valuable with the introduction of the Sunder charms.

yeah, I wonder if that makes any difference with some strong builds. I guess it doesn't.

If it doesn't make any difference like you say then why it's there? Of course it makes a difference. It buffs the strongest builds and provides an universal solution to most of the builds.

Crispin wrote: 2 years ago

yeah, I wonder if that makes any difference with some strong builds. I guess it doesn't.

Well, it still would, but it all depends on whether you care about the time you would save by doing the most damage possible or not.

Some people are super focused on clearing the areas as quickly as possible, others don't care all that much

This really lays bare how much of a problem Infinity really is; endgame shouldn't be pivoted around a single item. I'm glad we get alternative means; though Sunder charms feel like trying to fix the problem with more wrong solutions. Personally I'd rather have seen immunities & Infinity removed and

Conviction lowered.

That said, Sunder charms will still require you to build properly to take advantage of them. And they're not taking anything away that already exists either; you can ignore their existence if you want to keep the old play. They do add more alternatives and with it more viable builds ..often fun builds that fell over due to imbalanced limitations.

Ravoc wrote: 2 years ago

you can ignore their existence if you want to keep the old play

I was waiting for that argument. I stated that playing the game sub-optimally gives me no satisfaction. I don't like the fact that optimal solution is oversimplified now.

You can also drive a bicycle on a highway if you like bikes and don't like cars. Same argument.

Pretty sure driving a bicycle on a highway is illegal :p