Hardcore showing up under Softcore Trades

Device: All
Browser: All
OS: All

Steps to reproduce: Toggle off hardcore, browse trades

Anything else to add: Hardcore/softcore should be a toggle. Softcore players constantly comment on hardcore trades. More often than not, a comment on a hardcore trade is someone from softcore.

Hey le3bl,

The browse trades area has a specific section for just hardcore trades, so you shouldn't be seeing softcore trades there.

The search function has a hardcore filter, so you shouldn't be seeing softcore trades there either (though pagination past page - has issues) if you selected that as a filter.

As for softcore traders commenting on HC trades, I've already gone through the trouble of adding multiple indicators on the trade that it is hardcore - a header icon with a tooltip, and a big warning block with an exclamation icon saying 'Hardcore trade'. I can't make people read if they don't want to.

In light of these comments is there anythibg you want to expand on?

I don't have a solution for you, but more often than not it is a softcore player that is commenting on hardcore trades. The indicators that are present simply are not noticeable enough. And without a persistent hardcore/softcore toggle filter they are mixed up. Since there are so many more softcore trades than hardcore trades the softcore players just don't pay attention. This is almost unusable for hardcore players.

Maybe hardcore trades should NOT show up unless the hardcore button is toggled on. There is absolutely no reason why anyone would want to see a mix of hardcore and softcore trades at the same time.

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

The indicators that are present simply are not noticeable enough.

Well this has been brought up enough times to warrant me making it a bit stronger then.

As for your other comments, I'm a little confused tbh and without a solid example and a suggested solution there's little for me to go on.

You say that the system is 'almost unusable for hardcore players': can you expand on that and provide me with some examples?

I see on your profile that you've made 8 sales in the last 3 days - all of them hardcore listibgs - so I think that statement is coming across a little stronger than intended, but happy to take any specific examples with suggestions.

8 trades using this platform. Others have a segregated area for hardcore and softcore communities. It is nearly impossible to

Confuse the two when trading. This platform has the two merged together and as indistinguishable as any other search filter. The economies are completely different so when people are "bidding" or "haggling" on trades, the thread becomes derailed when a unwitting softcore player drops in and offers an outrageous wager.

My suggestion is to segregate the communities that cannot trade with each other. A simple way to do this on this technology stack is to enforce a softcore OR hardcore filter. Never allow both or neither to be selected.

Here is one link to a trade that had not been deleted already, but has been derailed twice now by softcore offers:
post1577276.html#p1577276

It is difficult to provide examples when the owners take them down and move on.

You've still not provided me with actual examples of how the site is 'almost unusable for hardcore traders'.

Listen, this isn't a complaints line, I develop this site alone in my own time. To make things better for everyone I need actual concrete examples of 1) what is wrong, and 2) what your suggestion or solution is. If you can lay that out clearly for me, I can determine whether it needs to be developed or if it's just a 'nice to have' feature, and add it to the list with everything else in it's rightful place. But before I can do that I need to know something quite simple... what do you want?

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

My suggestion is to segregate the communities that cannot trade with each other. A simple way to do this on this technology stack is to enforce a softcore OR hardcore filter. Never allow both or neither to be selected.

The hardcore area is completely segregated already: browsetrades.php?mode=hardcore - though their may be pagination issues past page 1 where sometimes SC trades appear (known bug and I've mentioned it already in this thread). When you search, the hardcore filter is preselected for you. When you make listings, it's designated as a hardcore trade at the very top in a warning block, and gets a

Skull icon. Not only that but all of your offers within that trade you can see that you're a hardcore player. Furthermore, I've seen some other HC traders successfully deter blind people by simply adding 'HARDCORE' to their trade listing, in a different colour sometimes red. What else can I do to make it clearer that your trades are hardcore?

I've already said I'll try to make that warning block more visible, what else do you want?

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

Since there are so many more softcore trades than hardcore trades the softcore players just don't pay attention. This is almost unusable for hardcore players.

So you're saying the site is unusable for hardcore players because 'softcore players don't pay attention'? What can I do about people's attention spans as a developer? Why are you holding the site accountable for the laziness of other players?

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

Maybe hardcore trades should NOT show up unless the hardcore button is toggled on. There is absolutely no reason why anyone would want to see a mix of hardcore and softcore trades at the same time.

Absolutely no reason? What about people who have both SC and HC characters? You've got to stop using these hyperboles and exaggerations and start giving me a reasonable argument that justifies me re-engineering how all trades are queried, considering that this is the first time anyone has complained about this use case.

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

The economies are completely different so when people are "bidding" or "haggling" on trades, the thread becomes derailed when a unwitting softcore player drops in and offers an outrageous wager.

Had you read the v1.0 patch notes - as is asked of everyone before posting a bug report - you'd know that there is already a tool that traders have to defend themselves against others derailing their listings. Top right user dropdown > Account Prefs > Squelch a Trader. Have a look.

post1578741.html#p1578741

Here is another example. I didn't mean to make you upset. I just can't really use your site for trading. Most of my encounters end up being softcore players getting confused. I'm trying to be constructive, but you don't want to work with me.

And FYI, if hardcore players haven't taken the time to complain through this channel about this issue it doesn't automatically mean there isn't an issue. They are probably just moving on to a different platform.

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

Here is another example.

Did you check out the Squelch tool as I suggested? It would solve your problems here in this thread that you linked. I've said this once already, so I'll say it again just to make sure you heard me the second time. Can you at least acknowledge or feed back on this rather than ignoring my responses and continuing to post vague criticisms about the site with no specific examples? I am addressing your concerns directly but you are not responding.

You are: Unhappy about the current indicators that a trade is HC - you say it's not visible enough. Fair play, I've actually heard this a lot and I can make it more visible, as I've already said in this topic once before.

And you are: Unhappy that when you're not specifically searching for hardcore trades, that softcore trades show up also, whether that's in search results without the HC filter, or browsing trades outside of the dedicated HC section. You reasoned that this is a fault with the site because there was 'no justification at all for seeing both' - to which I responded saying that actually there is, and that your use case is niche; it doesn't justify me spending the development time on it when there are more important things to do.

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

I just can't really use your site for trading.

And if you cannot articulate why that is, and offer me a reasonable solution that is realistic in dev hours, then I can't help you. If you think other services are better then use them. I don't see this as a business where I have to retain users - you can come and go as you please.

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

And FYI, if hardcore players haven't taken the time to complain through this channel about this issue it doesn't automatically mean there isn't an issue. They are probably just moving on to a different platform.

That's true - a lot of the time people won't report stuff and will move away. That's why I make it easy for you guys to feed back here and report things, so that those that do want to help improve things can do so by posting here.

I am relatively new to your site. I only view and post in hardcore using the hardcore filter. Most people I have ever met in my 20 years playing either HC or SC exclusively so I am not a niche case.

Almost every trade I've seen in HC will have SC people post in it unless it is repeated in the post that this trade is hardcore only. That means each person that takes this extra step had already been affected by this issue. If you think every hardcore trader is going to squelch every single player that interrupts their trade then that is going to be a good reason for me to stop using this site. I'm just offering criticisms. I'm not asking you to reengineer your site. I offered a simple solution where, by default, browsing trades will automatically toggle the softcore filter. That would keep the two communities out of the current default view together.

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

Most people I have ever met in my 20 years playing either HC or SC exclusively so I am not a niche case.

And there are currently nearly 46,000 active trades on the site. Of which only 593 are hardcore. This is a niche use case.

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

Almost every trade I've seen in HC will have SC people post in it unless it is repeated in the post that this trade is hardcore only. That means each person that takes this extra step had already been affected by this issue.

Yep, and I already told you this but it looks like again you're refusing to actually listen to me. It takes three seconds to type in 'HARDCORE ONLY' and colour it red, or underline it, or whatever. I've already told you this is an effective strategy that HC traders are already using.

On the other hand, it would take me a week to re-engineer the queries being made everywhere on the site to completely separate SC and HC from each other - and what's more I don't like the way that you keep on suggesting these things as if they're easy. I don't care if you worked for NASA before, you don't know how this site is coded and what it takes.

Do you think that is a reasonable suggestion? That I spend one week developing a split between SC and HC trades, because you don't want to take three extra seconds of your time to add an informative message to your post? You've just agreed with me that it's effective, so why are you continuing to persist with your point?

I've already told you that this is not efficient for me - I have other shit to take care of that is much more important than saving you from having to write an extra message at the top of your HC trades.

Everything else I have already addressed.

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

If you think every hardcore trader is going to squelch every single player that interrupts their trade then that is going to be a good reason for me to stop using this site.

You wouldn't have to if you just made a bit of an effort and had some patience with people in general. Instead you've chosen to come here to this subforum and complain to me that this site is 'unusable for HC players', even though you are making successful trades.

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

I'm just offering criticisms. I'm not asking you to reengineer your site.
I offered a simple solution where, by default, browsing trades will automatically toggle the softcore filter.

You don't know how this site is coded, and therefore don't know how simple or not something is to implement. Some things that seem simple are not actually simple to program. I am repeatedly telling you that what you have suggested with regards to separating SC/HC would not easy to implement, and that it is not an efficient use of my development time, but you have continued to ignore my direct responses to this.

Also I'm moving this to feedback as we've established that this discussion isn't about a bug.

I am not suggesting anything is easy. It is not clear to HC players that they need to post in each trade that they are HC only despite there being a filter for their trade. It is not intuitive. HC players simply aren't going to use this very much. Maybe that is why you see it as niche. The HC community is suffering because of the small community and lack of ant legitimate way to communicate and trade. I thought that was something this site could help fix. I was wrong.

Yeah I guess you could classify this as not a bug since only 1.3% of trades are affected. I don't know what my experience with NASA as a software engineer has to do with this, but you're right that I don't know how this site is coded. I'm not trying to be an asshole, but I am pointing out a legitimate problem for the HC community. Take it or leave it.

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

I am not suggesting anything is easy.

You did though, twice actually:

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

A simple way to do this on this technology stack is to enforce a softcore OR hardcore filter. Never allow both or neither to be selected.

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

I offered a simple solution where, by default, browsing trades will automatically toggle the softcore filter.

So that's why I responded.

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

It is not clear to HC players that they need to post in each trade that they are HC only despite there being a filter for their trade. It is not intuitive.

Posting at the top is just an extra thing you can do which we both agree will help you, and it only takes 3 seconds to do. Please do not try to use a strawman argument here; I never said that it is expected of you, and nor does the site expect you or direct you to do that, just as a suggestion if you're having an issue with people who don't read.

What is unintuitive about the Trade filter? You click it, it shows a warning box that lists your trade as Hardcore. How is that unintuitive to you? You are again being extremely vague without really explaining yourself. I've already told you perhaps 3 times now (?) that the visibility of the 'Hardcore trade' warning box will be improved on. Beyond doing that, what else can I do to make people pay more attention? What else can I do that we haven't already discussed here?

The HC community is suffering because of the small community and lack of ant legitimate way to communicate and trade. I thought that was something this site could help fix. I was wrong.

This site is a legitimate way to communicate and trade. As evidenced by you being here and successfully completing 8 hardcore trades. So once again I ask that you don't use absolutes and sweeping generalisations that are just straight-up wrong.

Look, I've listened to what you've had to say, I've responded to every single point you've made, I've spent a lot of time speaking to you here in this thread. I want to help HC traders. That should be quite obvious. However the solution you've offered is not realistic, and I've taken the time to explain to you why it's not realistic.

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

Yeah I guess you could classify this as not a bug since only 1.3% of trades are affected.

It's not a bug though. It's just not a bug.

I don't know what my experience with NASA as a software engineer has to do with this, but you're right that I don't know how this site is coded.

Yep, you don't. So stop trying to tell me what is easy to do. I'm telling you that it's not easy to do.

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but I am pointing out a legitimate problem for the HC community. Take it or leave it.

I've got no problem with people pointing out problems on the site.

Most people are just like 'okay thanks' if I can't fulfil their individual request for whatever reason. Some people suggest realistic solutions, which are often patched onto the site as indicated by the green ticks next to the names of the other feedback topics.

It's very rare that someone responds in the way that you have. I've 1) Listened to you, 2) Looked for solutions, 3) Decided that it isn't feasible for me to do, 4) Communicated this to you. What else is expected of me?

You listened.
You said "No."
That is all. Thanks for your response. HC is not viable on this platform. Fair enough.

le3bl wrote: 2 years ago

HC is not viable on this platform.

Coolbeans, if you think that then there are plenty of options for you out there. Bye for now.

Someone came up with a nifty solution that seems to be working: Put in your signature that the trade is hardcore only. That way it appears under everything you post. Looks like it is catching on.