Herald Spawn Q (Meh aspect of it)

Schnorki wrote: 1 day ago

retepnap wrote: 2 days ago

There is one very important thing to notice - if you leave the area (taking a TP or just "activating" a new area by crossing over) - a reset is done.
[..]

Sorry but that is simply incorrect.

Easy enough to test:
1) Make a new game
2) Keep it a solo game for ease of testing/certainty
3) Go to TZ
4) Kill some stuff (not enough to trigger a

Herald but enough to get close)
5) TP to town
6) Come back
7) Kill one more mob/small pack
8.1) Repeat steps 5-7 until you get a

Herald spawn
8.2) If you don't get a

Herald by the time the TZ is cleared, go back to step 1

If TPing caused a reset, you would never - ever - see a

Herald spawn in the above approach as the 1 mob/pack after coming back would always follow a reset and would never be enough to push you past the T1

Herald mark by itself. And yet, if you do actually run that test (which yes, I just did - twice, to be sure), you will eventually get a

Herald spawn off the first kill after coming back from town. TPing hence cannot trigger a reset or that

Herald would've never happened.

You are hence free to TP and stash your loot as often as you want to, without losing

Herald progression for doing so.
Anecdotally, I already knew that was the case and the reset claim was untrue but for the sake of this post, I did go ahead and specifically test it, just to be certain.

I am not willing to change my mind based on such kind of testing. Testing something only two times means absolutely nothing in a game with this much RNG. Getting a lucky spawn after comming back from town is just a classic false positive. Hitting that lucky roll on a fresh tile and mistake it for a preserved zone counter - is not something I would expect from a veteran with your knowledge.

For context, I have been grinding like crazy for the past 2 weeks, pushing 6 new builds towards level 96 (currently at 94, 94, 93, 90, 1, 1).

Because I am "powerleveling" (or at least trying my best) - I am actively trying not to make heralds spawn. Those T5 fights simply ruins the xp-per-hour efficiency. My thoughts on this are based on hundreds of runs, not just a couple of isolated tests.

Here is my "logical" reasoning:

Pavkes 3.2 guide shows that the spawns depend entirely on zone completion percentages. To my understanding, when you use a town portal or cross into a different zone, you leave the active map area. This break, in your run, disconnects you from that specific map tracking, dropping the kill counter back to zero.

The "crazy" randomness of the game completely backs this up, because a simple straight line tracker does not explain what actually happens when we play:

First, look at the full-clear issue. Everyone (I assume), has tried to clear a zone completely and yet no

Herald spawned (not thinking of zones where there are more than 1 area connected). Failing to spawn at maximum threshold kinda defies the logic of the new completion system? Even if a single

Skeleton was left behind somewhere, and the clearance was 99% ish ...

Second, the systems intense RNG makes small tests unreliable. During eg. my pure TZ96 P8 Chaos runs, while soloing this zone, I have had a

Herald spawn right in the beginning (at the end of the main entrance) and leaving that behind, killing one or two small groups just a few yards away, made another

Herald spawn. If I had taken a TP between those 2 spawns, you would claim that it "proved" the counter was not reset.

In reality, it just shows how wildly random a single run can be, especially since a third

Herald spawned at the end of that clearance. The exact opposite happens often too, where you get "dry streaks".

To see what was actually making a difference, I used public TZ96 P8 Chaos runs for an experiment, during my many hours of grinding. We ran 85 games in a row. During the first runs, we hit a relatively long streak with no spawns, so I asked the others to stop using TP's and heralds almost immediately started spawning on a regular basis, sometimes more than once per run. When I play solo, I deliberately test this by opening TP for every 15-20% clearance and i get way fewer heralds spawning. Similary, on most of my solo runs in A5, entering a cave/dungeon upon spotting it and then comming back to the main map later, also causes way fewer heralds to spawn.

Maybe this is somehow isolated to my specific games? But others, even in this thread, and several other high-level players i talk to, notice the exact same drop in spawns, whenever players are using TP or switch areas before finishing.

retepnap wrote: 20 hours ago

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I am not willing to change my mind based on such kind of testing. Testing something only two times means absolutely nothing in a game with this much RNG. Getting a lucky spawn after comming back from town is just a classic false positive. Hitting that lucky roll on a fresh tile and mistake it for a preserved zone counter - is not something I would expect from a veteran with your knowledge.
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Actually, making it happen even once is a 100% confirmation in this case. The math behind it is pretty simple.

Thanks to Pavke, we know the formulas behind

Herald spawning. And thanks to those, we also know that a T1

Herald requires ~52% zone clearing to have a chance to spawn. Not to be more likely to spawn but to even be possible to begin with. The formula behind it makes it literally impossible for a T1

Herald to spawn at less than that minimum % requirement.

If your TP would reset it, you would be at 0% after coming back. Not ~52, 0. Your chance to spawn a T1

Herald hence wouldn't be some matter of "this much RNG" but it would be literally exactly 0. It simply would not happen. Ever. Just like if you make a new game, kill 1 mob in a TZ, leave, make a new game again (which actually does reset your %), kill 1 mob in the TZ, leave again and repeat that 50 quadrillion times, you will be guaranteed to get exactly 0 heralds because you will never be at the required clearing percentage to even allow for a spawn.

If you ever even once get a T1

Herald to spawn on the first kill after coming back from a TP it hence tells you very clearly that your clearing % wasn't reset to 0 as it simply cannot happen with less than ~52. If it did reset, it wouldn't just be unlikely, it would be literally impossible.

The same concept applies to higher tiers as well but T1 makes for blatantly obvious testing as the minimum % is significantly higher. T5 by contrast can be misleading and happen on fairly early packs in smaller zones as it only needs ~5.8% to become possible.

As mentioned, my Warlock friend confirmed that he did get multiple heralds right after coming back through a TP and last night I had the same situation after spamming portals.

So no, TPing did not reset anything

This is pretty unrelated but I was clearing a zone with a friend and looking for any stragglers. I popped a coffin and a

Flying Scimitar was in there, friend killed it and it spawned a

Herald pack...

OF FLYING SCIMITARS XD

So yeah I was unaware up until this that the enemy you kill to trigger the

Herald is always what type of

Herald it is. I had just assumed it picked an enemy type from the zone you were in randomly.

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.

justinman114 wrote: 15 hours ago

This is pretty unrelated but I was clearing a zone with a friend and looking for any stragglers. I popped a coffin and a

Flying Scimitar was in there, friend killed it and it spawned a

Herald pack...

OF FLYING SCIMITARS XD

So yeah I was unaware up until this that the enemy you kill to trigger the

Herald is always what type of

Herald it is. I had just assumed it picked an enemy type from the zone you were in randomly.

That's awesome, I hope you got a screenshot!

Knappogue wrote: 15 hours ago

justinman114 wrote: 15 hours ago

This is pretty unrelated but I was clearing a zone with a friend and looking for any stragglers. I popped a coffin and a

Flying Scimitar was in there, friend killed it and it spawned a

Herald pack...

OF FLYING SCIMITARS XD

So yeah I was unaware up until this that the enemy you kill to trigger the

Herald is always what type of

Herald it is. I had just assumed it picked an enemy type from the zone you were in randomly.

That's awesome, I hope you got a screenshot!

I was too excited and forgot, this is common with me LOL. If it happens again I will get it, but it's gonna be a rare sight I think.

Lucky you, that's one I'd like to see as well

Schnorki wrote: 18 hours ago

retepnap wrote: 20 hours ago

[..]
I am not willing to change my mind based on such kind of testing. Testing something only two times means absolutely nothing in a game with this much RNG. Getting a lucky spawn after comming back from town is just a classic false positive. Hitting that lucky roll on a fresh tile and mistake it for a preserved zone counter - is not something I would expect from a veteran with your knowledge.
[..]

Actually, making it happen even once is a 100% confirmation in this case. The math behind it is pretty simple.

Thanks to Pavke, we know the formulas behind

Herald spawning. And thanks to those, we also know that a T1

Herald requires ~52% zone clearing to have a chance to spawn. Not to be more likely to spawn but to even be possible to begin with. The formula behind it makes it literally impossible for a T1

Herald to spawn at less than that minimum % requirement.

If your TP would reset it, you would be at 0% after coming back. Not ~52, 0. Your chance to spawn a T1

Herald hence wouldn't be some matter of "this much RNG" but it would be literally exactly 0. It simply would not happen. Ever. Just like if you make a new game, kill 1 mob in a TZ, leave, make a new game again (which actually does reset your %), kill 1 mob in the TZ, leave again and repeat that 50 quadrillion times, you will be guaranteed to get exactly 0 heralds because you will never be at the required clearing percentage to even allow for a spawn.

If you ever even once get a T1

Herald to spawn on the first kill after coming back from a TP it hence tells you very clearly that your clearing % wasn't reset to 0 as it simply cannot happen with less than ~52. If it did reset, it wouldn't just be unlikely, it would be literally impossible.

The same concept applies to higher tiers as well but T1 makes for blatantly obvious testing as the minimum % is significantly higher. T5 by contrast can be misleading and happen on fairly early packs in smaller zones as it only needs ~5.8% to become possible.

Ahh yes - but I do not think we are talking about the same occurrence here.

Your math is defined strictly by solo P1 games, and I assume that is what you tested?

I do not disagree with your numbers or your point of view on how a solo player spawns that first T1

Herald, hence the 52% rule. If a Town Portal forced a hard reset to 0% on a fresh solo run, getting a T1 spawn on your first kill back from town would indeed be literally impossible under the 52% rule. Your test proves that for an isolated solo character, the baseline map data stays saved through a loading screen.

However, the scenario in this thread has absolutely nothing to do with solo P1 games.

Look at the original quote we are replying to: 'So I've noticed that when I play with my friend, he's constantly spawning heralds while I rarely get them.'

This more than implies a shard-activated game where entire acts are fully terrorized at the same time. In a multiplayer split-run where one player is 'constantly' spawning multiple Heralds before an area is even finished, you have clearly progressed way past the initial levels and into T4 or T5.

My detailed gaming experience is strictly based on P8 games, and I am referring to T5 exclusively.

So your T1 math does not apply here - neither for my experience nor the original post.

Let's theorize for just a second with an 8-player shard game, since this is exactly what I have been doing intensively for the past two weeks.

Imagine 8 players enter a game and start split-farming separate zones across different acts. For argument's sake, let's say they all hit 50% zone completion at roughly the same time. Then player XX kills another pack, hits 52%, gets lucky, and spawns the T1

Herald. What happens to the remaining 7 players across the map right at that second?

If the game tracked progress through a simple, rigid global percentage slider across the entire server, then the exact second that first

Herald pops and the tracker resets, the progress for the other 7 players would completely vanish and drop back to 0%. Their hard work in their own acts would be instantly wiped out simply because a teammate got a kill somewhere else.

The reason the game doesn't unfairly delete everyone else's progress is because a dynamic, multiplayer server tracks your presence in a map instance separately. When you take a town portal or switch areas before finishing in a group game, you break your active presence within that local area.

My conclusion, based on real gameplay across many hours of controlled farming - like asking my public groups to completely stop using TPs, which immediately made Heralds start spawning on a regular basis again - is that disconnecting from the map state suppresses or resets your progress back to zero.

Ultimately, this TP theory might just turn out to be what it is - something that simply co-exists or is a part of the overall RNG pool.

I am definitely going to try to test this in P8 games, though I fear it may be a hard and tricky thing to get through because of the incredibly low threshold (T5 threshold).

It would mean keeping a strict kill count of no more than 5% and then taking a TP.

However, for the sake of 'science', being able to report back with an accurate test could benefit everyone who has a similar experience.

If it just turns out to be pure RNG variance in the end, at least I will admit it, and at the same time, I can happily let go of all those TPs I make during my XP games.

It doesn't matter whether you're talking about a solo or a multiplayer game, the underlying math and plethora of very easily re-confirmed (at any player count) evidence remains the same. The only thing shifting is the minimum threshold for higher tiers. Your generalized claim of "TP = reset" is and remains false. Period.

The "reason the game doesn't unfairly delete everyone else's progress" as you put it isn't some abstract player-based "TP resets it" tracker but simply the fact that progress is tracked by spawn zone. So if someone off in some random zone spawns a

Herald, the only progression being reset is that in their spawn zone and not that for everyone else off in other zones.

I honestly don't care whether you yourself choose to accept the very simple math, equally simple known spawn mechanis and plethora of easily reproducible evidence to go with it or not, I am merely correcting your blatantly false claim so that others don't take it as fact and start skipping loot collection they otherwise wouldn't just to avoid having to TP out of some misguided fear of losing

Herald progress.

The only reason you see less heralds when regularly TPing is because

Herald spawns are directly tied to kills and hence clear speed. Spending half your time TPing and stashing stuff in town effectively halves your clear speed, equally reducing the number of heralds you get within the same amount of time. Not because TPing resets some tracker (which it doesn't) but simply because you spend half of your time in town, rather than progressing towards the next

Herald. You'll still end up with the same number of heralds for the same areas cleared on average but you will have a lower number of heralds per set period of time, simply because it'll take you longer to clear those same areas.

I just tested it and I can confirm that @Schnorki is right and @retepnap is wrong.

I went inside

Tal Rasha's real tomb, no Heralds were spawned before. So it was about spawning a T1

Herald. And to my knowledge it always spawns in the real tomb if you kill enough monsters, the area is big enough. After about 8-12% killed monsters I went to town with a TP, after the 5th TP the

Herald spawned almost directly.

A TP does not reset the

Herald timer.

Maybe someone else can also test it because convincing Retepnap that he might be wrong in his claims is hard work. Two people might not be enough.

Edit: I cleared the other six tombs and the Canyon of Magi and TPed to town about 30 times. I spawned six heralds in total.

mikelessar wrote: 1 hour ago

I just tested it and I can confirm that @Schnorki is right and @retepnap is wrong.

I went inside

Tal Rasha's real tomb, no Heralds were spawned before. So it was about spawning a T1

Herald. And to my knowledge it always spawns in the real tomb if you kill enough monsters, the area is big enough. After about 8-12% killed monsters I went to town with a TP, after the 5th TP the

Herald spawned almost directly.

A TP does not reset the

Herald timer.

Maybe someone else can also test it because convincing Retepnap that he might be wrong in his claims is hard work. Two people might not be enough.

Edit: I cleared the other six tombs and the Canyon of Magi and TPed to town about 30 times. I spawned six heralds in total.

Thats a great test - since you use 8-12% i assume it was yet another P1 test? (LOL)

How about you actually read what the "issue" is about?

How is it possible for you to ignore all that I already wrote and then go do a test that I already confirmed to be valid?

Maybe someone can help mikelesser with the reading and understanding part - it may take more than one try