Mana Sustain

The recent PTR notes highlighted a problem that has been there forever: mana sustain.
If they take

Conviction from the demon and fire Warlocks have to use Infinity on the merc, sustain goes down the drain and we will have to either use mana pots or change the build and

Sacrifice damage for sustain.
Not having to worry about mana makes them very nice to play right now.

There are few builds that can sustain their own mana - mainly the ones where cast speed is less important.
Many Java players have Phoenix on the main slot for sustain, even though they lose damage. You can give your merc Insight to solve this, but also lose 30% of damage or so for elemental builds.
In PvP mana pots are put in front of town, because players run out of mana after some time.

The game makes you choose between damage, fluid gameplay and constantly drinking mana pots, which is not great game design.
Blizzard clearly tried to put mechanics into the game to solve this problem, but they only make it slightly better instead of solving it.

How can this be solved?

1. Increase mana regeneration across the board. Fixes the problem for everyone passively.
2. Stop increasing mana costs past skill level 20 or make the curve flatter. Fixes the problem for everyone passively.
3. Change Energy: It directly increases mana regeneration or gives more mana (which does the same), and increases spell damage (like STR and DEX), to give casters a reason to put points into it. Fixes the problem actively, but not for melee.
4. Like 3, but also decrease melee skill costs so they don't need points in energy for sustain. Passive fix for melee, active fix for casters.
5. Make out of combat regeneration faster. The worst solution, because it interrupts gameplay, but it's a possibility.
6. Flask slots like in PoE? They're mainly used for health in PoE though, not for mana. At least you don't have to refill your

Belt, but this would require many changes to item and drops.

Thoughts?

Project Diablo 2 implements a lot of this by the way and feedback is very positive.

I don't see the problem at all.

- No one prevents you from investing points in Energy. You're choosing not to, so complaining about lack of mana/slow mana regen is a bit funny. It's like trying to argue that you should get 75% block without putting any points in Dex.
- There are items which can drastically boost your mana -

Frostburn is 40%, SoJ is 25%

Silkweave is 10%. This setup doubles your mana. You could also use Insight as your weapon. Again: you're choosing not to utilize those items to min-max your build, but perhaps min-maxing is not only about the raw DPS but also sustainability?
- There is mana after kill which can help sustain mana pool.

Lidless Wall can be +5, Silkweaves are +5 etc.
- You can have charms with +mana

On a different note: this has little to do with Warlock. Other characters face similar "issues" - eg.

Nova Sorc.

So sum up: I don't think there is a problem here. It's just that you're trying to maximize your damage/hp, with zero regard to sustainability of the build.

How about old school (pre-1.10) solution: mana pots are not available at vendors, and are only dropped from monsters. Players need to conserve them, and use strategically.
Or spend some stat points into Energy.

Not everything must be minmaxed for DPS.

Pharisaeus wrote: 1 day ago

I don't see the problem at all.

- No one prevents you from investing points in Energy. You're choosing not to, so complaining about lack of mana/slow mana regen is a bit funny. It's like trying to argue that you should get 75% block without putting any points in Dex.
- There are items which can drastically boost your mana -

Frostburn is 40%, SoJ is 25%

Silkweave is 10%. This setup doubles your mana. You could also use Insight as your weapon. Again: you're choosing not to utilize those items to min-max your build, but perhaps min-maxing is not only about the raw DPS but also sustainability?
- There is mana after kill which can help sustain mana pool.

Lidless Wall can be +5, Silkweaves are +5 etc.
- You can have charms with +mana

On a different note: this has little to do with Warlock. Other characters face similar "issues" - eg.

Nova Sorc.

So sum up: I don't think there is a problem here. It's just that you're trying to maximize your damage/hp, with zero regard to sustainability of the build.

The problem is having to choose sustain over a functional build. No modern game does this anymore, and for good reason.

Frostburn? Less damage.

Silkweave? Less resistances or MF.

Lidless Wall instead of Spirit? Most players will not even consider this, because it makes your char so much worse.

Block is a bad comparison, because it makes your character better. Sustain doesn't. You can just use mana pots instead, but it's annoying.

sh3ll wrote: 1 day ago

The problem is having to choose sustain over a functional build.

It's the same idea as if you designed a pure glass cannon build, and complained that your build is "not functional" because you're dying all the time, but you're not going to get +res or +hp because it would lower your DPS.

Pharisaeus wrote: 1 day ago

sh3ll wrote: 1 day ago

The problem is having to choose sustain over a functional build.

It's the same idea as if you designed a pure glass cannon build, and complained that your build is "not functional" because you're dying all the time, but you're not going to get +res or +hp because it would lower your DPS.

Again wrong. A glass cannon has practical advantages, because you can clear faster.
Sustain has no advantage at all, because you can get the same from potions with more clicks. It's only quality of life.

So far the arguments you're trying to make support my point.

Trang Oul wrote: 1 day ago

How about old school (pre-1.10) solution: mana pots are not available at vendors, and are only dropped from monsters. Players need to conserve them, and use strategically.
Or spend some stat points into Energy.

Not everything must be minmaxed for DPS.

Agreed. If there was at least a real scarcity of mana potions, the whole mechanic wouldn't be pointless.

does warlock able to use mana per kill jewel?

leox wrote: 1 day ago

does warlock able to use mana per kill jewel?

Yes, but like I said in the original post: That makes it slightly better, but doesn't really change it. With the current best in slot items the build doesn't work without Insight or mana potions.

It's the same as most other builds that have to choose between Infinity or Insight. All high level players choose Infinity and potions, because it gives the best clear speed.

sh3ll wrote: 1 day ago

The problem is having to choose sustain over a functional build. No modern game does this anymore, and for good reason.

I think this is clearly debatable (and my builds are sustained AND functional for single play in P1-P5 anyway and the Sin even to P8) - see below) and maybe this is the reason I like THIS game and don't get the vibes from newer ones (I tried D3 but got bored very soon and POE2 didn't catch me either). For me QoL is different from building a balanced Char. As others have already pointed out: You have to balance multiple issues and evaluate what you like playing the most.

I for my part HATE using potions and all my Chars are completely self-sustained (Zealer Pally, Summoner Druid, Mosaic Sin and Cold Sorc). All my Chars have max. resist as well. BUT they obviously do not have the max. possible kill speed and I am fine with that. If you like blasting everything with one click in P8 then you either have to use GG gear and/or have the tradeoff to manage potions. Otherwise, how do you get diversity in builds and playstyle if you do not have any tradeoffs? Then everyone is simply running around with one and the same build.

E. g. my Cold Sorc and my Mosaic Sin have a

Prayer/Insight Merc specifically for that reason. I have tried Infinity but it is not for me because, as I already mentioned, I do not want the potion management. Instead, my Zealer has a Might/Infinity Merc to significantly increase the hit chance on Uniques, Super Uniques and Bosses. The tradeoff is, that therefore I have no

Decrepify and therefore at least some Super Uniques with Stone Skin and Physical Immunities really take some time to get them down (a proper rolled

Ismail Vilehand is the nemesis of my Zealer ).

On the other hand, the Mosaic Sin kills nearly everything with one kick in P8 even without Infinity. BUT you have to keep up your charges which makes picking things up and checking them really annoying. I could also say that this "limitation" is simply a pain in the ass and it would be "a huge QoL improvement" if the charges of Mosaic simply stay up all the time. But this too would simply make this already OP Char in a no-brainer POE/D4 Char. If I wanted that I would play these games and therefore would prefer that there is at least one game which does things differently

This mainly affects players who push content, yes. If you play P1, it's no problem to have both clear speed and QoL.
P8, competing in the ladder, or PvP, you often don't have a choice. If you

Sacrifice stats for QoL, you're not competitive.

@oOKIWIOo by playing Insight on your

Zeal you lose about 70% damage on average. That's exactly what I'm talking about
I'm like you and don't like using potions, but don't think this choice should lock players out of content. And in other games it doesn't.

In the end it's just a detail, but for me the Warlock is so fun to play not only because it's strong, but because mana sustain isn't an issue.

Pharisaeus wrote: 1 day ago

[..]
- No one prevents you from investing points in Energy. You're choosing not to, so complaining about lack of mana/slow mana regen is a bit funny. It's like trying to argue that you should get 75% block without putting any points in Dex.
[..]

This.

Most mana-reliant builds can sustain themselves just fine without the need for an Insight, simply by picking up a bit of energy. Though some don't even need that and there are plenty of other options to use instead or in addition. And all you typically ultimately

Sacrifice for it is life. Not dmg. Not MF. Not any performance. Simply life. Which you generally can afford to in those builds as they're mostly not exactly intended to be full-on melee range tanks.

More often than not, in such a case, you'd either push mana to keep it just below your life pool to avoid blood mana. Or, for those that don't need quite as much, you simply push your mana to hit your required "infinite casting regen" and you're good.

In the case of a fire lock as the stated example here, you can still push your life and mana to both break 2.8k which is more than enough life for a fire lock and gives you enough regen for infinite

Teleport even at 9 frames with some over-regen to spare. Actively spamming attack skills will yield net negative mana, yes, but to actually have that cut into a 2.8k mana pool will take a while and as you move on to the next set of targets, you're still regenerating during your teleports.
And that's ignoring additional easy fixes like 1 pt in

Hex Siphon or other mana after kill sources and the like.

Mana is fine. If you actively choose to ignore and forego the easiest ways to solve regen and mana issues for most builds, that's kind of on you. And there's nothing wrong with there being at least some (=life) trade-off for endless self-sustained regen. Those not willing to make that trade can just stick to pots as they please.

Sin, druid, Infinity sorcs, my fire lock (before I decided to move away from that as I just don't enjoy the fire lock playstyle) and really nearly every non-Insight mana user I ever made, they all go indefinitely without an Insight and without ever touching a mana pot. And none of them

Sacrifice a single shred of performance for it. And they still keep more than enough life on top of that.

I don't mind drinking mana potions from time to time. just reserve 1-2 lines on the

Belt for them

@Schnorki You ignored most of the posts and listed builds as example who don't have mana problems to begin with.

sh3ll wrote: 10 hours ago

@oOKIWIOo by playing Insight on your

Zeal you lose about 70% damage on average. That's exactly what I'm talking about
I'm like you and don't like using potions, but don't think this choice should lock players out of content. And in other games it doesn't.

It seems you misread this My Zealer uses a Might Merc with an Infinity. Besides that he can solo Ubers with P5 (should also be possible in P8 but so far I only tested P5) without Treachery/

Fade. For life/mana sustain he uses

Dracul's Grasp, Phoenix and a rare ML ring. If I want max safety I can also swap the Phoenix with an Exile.

oOKIWIOo wrote: 8 hours ago

sh3ll wrote: 10 hours ago

@oOKIWIOo by playing Insight on your

Zeal you lose about 70% damage on average. That's exactly what I'm talking about
I'm like you and don't like using potions, but don't think this choice should lock players out of content. And in other games it doesn't.

It seems you misread this My Zealer uses a Might Merc with an Infinity. Besides that he can solo Ubers with P5 (should also be possible in P8 but so far I only tested P5) without Treachery/

Fade. For life/mana sustain he uses

Dracul's Grasp, Phoenix and a rare ML ring. If I want max safety I can also swap the Phoenix with an Exile.

I did misread, but it doesn't change anything. Good Zealers have 70%+ hit chance against Ubers with a Reaper's Toll merc, can easily sustain without potions and kill much faster than your setup.
You say you do this by choice to get more QoL, but that's either a lie or a bad choice.

This is about characters with near perfect equipment, who really have a choice, not about characters who need to choose sustain to stay alive

You stated Warlock in your second point with sustain going down the drain, but that sounds more like an overcasting issue more than anything.

A couple points to Energy would help, but there should be zero sustain issues even in P8. The Maek from Ars'Diabolos covers most of it in larger fights, and you're able to hit 125% FCR with SoJs, which makes Mana a non-issue.

Curious what godly setup you may be running that is struggling with sustain.

sh3ll wrote: 4 hours ago

I did misread, but it doesn't change anything. Good Zealers have 70%+ hit chance against Ubers with a Reaper's Toll merc, can easily sustain without potions and kill much faster than your setup.
You say you do this by choice to get more QoL, but that's either a lie or a bad choice.

This is about characters with near perfect equipment, who really have a choice, not about characters who need to choose sustain to stay alive

Good Zealers use

Smite against Ubers (at least against

Baal). But believe what you want. I have no problem quickly killing Ubers or any other content in the game with my Zealer. Before I tried Infinity I used a

The Reaper's Toll as well and in my estimation / for ME overall Infinity is the better choice (better hit chance overall and you get the lower def instantly and do not have to "wait" until

Decrepify procs).

Munkfist wrote: 4 hours ago

You stated Warlock in your second point with sustain going down the drain, but that sounds more like an overcasting issue more than anything.

A couple points to Energy would help, but there should be zero sustain issues even in P8. The Maek from Ars'Diabolos covers most of it in larger fights, and you're able to hit 125% FCR with SoJs, which makes Mana a non-issue.

Curious what godly setup you may be running that is struggling with sustain.

This is about the upcoming PTR changes, as the first sentence of the post says. If

Conviction on demons isn't allowed anymore, the build will have to use Infinity on the merc.
Warlock skills cost up to 90 mana and the current meta build runs out easily without Insight, even if you kill a full room with every cast. Ars Diabolos doesn't prevent that. Just try it for yourself.

So there's the choice I'm talking about, that many other builds already have to make.

Weaken the build or use potions.

oOKIWIOo wrote: 4 hours ago

Good Zealers use

Smite against Ubers (at least against

Baal). But believe what you want. I have no problem quickly killing Ubers or any other content in the game with my Zealer. Before I tried Infinity I used a

The Reaper's Toll as well and in my estimation / for ME overall Infinity is the better choice (better hit chance overall and you get the lower def instantly and do not have to "wait" until

Decrepify procs).

No offense, but your estimation doesn't really matter. There's a mathematically best build if you go for speed, and Infinity isn't part of that for the build you're running.
It's great that it makes it easier for you, but high end characters don't need it.

sh3ll wrote: 2 hours ago

No offense, but your estimation doesn't really matter. There's a mathematically best build if you go for speed, and Infinity isn't part of that for the build you're running.
It's great that it makes it easier for you, but high end characters don't need it.

No offense, too. But I encourage you to "play" with real builds and not rely on "theoretical calculations"