Helm choice for my Holy Fire Paladin

Hmm. Interesting. Maybe my Dragon Shield is still useful. Too bad I already made the Phoenix in a pally shield so I can't just swap it to my sorc or zon. =(

fredkid wrote: 1 month ago

Can, but you already have 125 pierce from

Conviction
[..]
Against immune/sundered

Conviction works at 1/5 so extra pierce will be way more effective but still not enough to double the damage...
monster will take 0.3x damage with only

Conviction (effective resist 70) and 0.55x damage with an addition 25 pierce (effective resist 45) (~+83%)
[..]

Actually, any self-convicting pally should aim for lvl 25

Conviction at which point you're shaving off 150 res (conv's

Cap) and not just 125.
The -100 min

Cap is accurate so on any mob that has 50 or less res, extra -res would do nothing thanks to

Conviction already taking care of it.

On immunes, you're looking at 95 res post-sunder, -30 from

Conviction (due to the 1/5th rule) and -20 from Hand of Justice, meaning you do 55% of your normal/base dmg against those (as compared to 200% of your base dmg against <=50 res mobs).

If you were to add Phoenix to that, you're adding -28 res which would take you to 83% of your base dmg or just about 51% more damage done, relatively speaking. Obviously, 51% is quite a hefty increase in and by itself but the cost of that is even more hefty as you're losing dmg two-fold:
1) You're dropping from tri-tick to dual-tick which in itself is essentially a 50% loss on the aoe part (albeit no impact on the melee dmg), meaning it already near fully offsets the gain from Phoenix there.
2) You're dropping your HF by 14 levels which - just quickly looking at maxroll for the numbers - is essentially right around a 44% dmg loss on both, melee and aoe.

As a result, looking at dmg vs. <=50 res mobs and vs. immunes, you're looking at essentially doing anywhere from around 15% all the way to around 62% less damage when using Phoenix which essentially means Phoenix is anywhere from 'bad' to 'horrible' as compared to another Dragon.

Or more specifically, in numbers, cause why not: That's looking at comparative base dmg mind you, not considering synergies and the like. But seeing how those multiply out independently, they don't change the relative comparison.
On mobs >50 res but not immune, few as they may be, the difference would be somewhere in between those for <=50 and immunes.
Also assuming no -res in the headpiece here, just to give Phoenix a chance (futile as it was). If you add -res there, be that via facets or flickering, the relative gain from the Phoenix -res drops, making the comparative results even worse for it.

SkullScythe wrote: 1 month ago

Hmm. Interesting. Maybe my Dragon Shield is still useful. Too bad I already made the Phoenix in a pally shield so I can't just swap it to my sorc or zon. =(

Could always keep the Phoenix as an overkill swap for quick regen, without having to waste an actual skill point on

Redemption.

Shame on me...

At the time I was writing I confuse

Conviction "max" level (25) with the max pierce (that's why I came with 125 instead of the correct 150 )

And completely forgot tha Hand of Justice already have fire pierce on the calculations...

Schnorki wrote: 1 month ago

fredkid wrote: 1 month ago

Can, but you already have 125 pierce from

Conviction
[..]
Against immune/sundered

Conviction works at 1/5 so extra pierce will be way more effective but still not enough to double the damage...
monster will take 0.3x damage with only

Conviction (effective resist 70) and 0.55x damage with an addition 25 pierce (effective resist 45) (~+83%)
[..]

Actually, any self-convicting pally should aim for lvl 25

Conviction at which point you're shaving off 150 res (conv's

Cap) and not just 125.
The -100 min

Cap is accurate so on any mob that has 50 or less res, extra -res would do nothing thanks to

Conviction already taking care of it.

On immunes, you're looking at 95 res post-sunder, -30 from

Conviction (due to the 1/5th rule) and -20 from Hand of Justice, meaning you do 55% of your normal/base dmg against those (as compared to 200% of your base dmg against <=50 res mobs).

If you were to add Phoenix to that, you're adding -28 res which would take you to 83% of your base dmg or just about 51% more damage done, relatively speaking. Obviously, 51% is quite a hefty increase in and by itself but the cost of that is even more hefty as you're losing dmg two-fold:
1) You're dropping from tri-tick to dual-tick which in itself is essentially a 50% loss on the aoe part (albeit no impact on the melee dmg), meaning it already near fully offsets the gain from Phoenix there.
2) You're dropping your HF by 14 levels which - just quickly looking at maxroll for the numbers - is essentially right around a 44% dmg loss on both, melee and aoe.

As a result, looking at dmg vs. <=50 res mobs and vs. immunes, you're looking at essentially doing anywhere from around 15% all the way to around 62% less damage when using Phoenix which essentially means Phoenix is anywhere from 'bad' to 'horrible' as compared to another Dragon.

Or more specifically, in numbers, cause why not:
image.png

That's looking at comparative base dmg mind you, not considering synergies and the like. But seeing how those multiply out independently, they don't change the relative comparison.
On mobs >50 res but not immune, few as they may be, the difference would be somewhere in between those for <=50 and immunes.
Also assuming no -res in the headpiece here, just to give Phoenix a chance (futile as it was). If you add -res there, be that via facets or flickering, the relative gain from the Phoenix -res drops, making the comparative results even worse for it.

SkullScythe wrote: 1 month ago

Hmm. Interesting. Maybe my Dragon Shield is still useful. Too bad I already made the Phoenix in a pally shield so I can't just swap it to my sorc or zon. =(

Could always keep the Phoenix as an overkill swap for quick regen, without having to waste an actual skill point on

Redemption.

fredkid wrote: 1 month ago

Shame on me...

At the time I was writing I

Confuse

Conviction "max" level (25) with the max pierce (that's why I came with 125 instead of the correct 150 )

And completely forgot tha Hand of Justice already have fire pierce on the calculations...
[..]

And you took Phoenix as -25 instead of -28 I believe.

<3

Yep...
But that was 'on purpose' to make calculation simpler
(And that's why I didn't say Phoenix explicitly on that specific post )

Schnorki wrote: 1 month ago

fredkid wrote: 1 month ago

Shame on me...

At the time I was writing I

Confuse

Conviction "max" level (25) with the max pierce (that's why I came with 125 instead of the correct 150 )

And completely forgot tha Hand of Justice already have fire pierce on the calculations...
[..]

And you took Phoenix as -25 instead of -28 I believe.

<3

Schnorki wrote: 1 month ago

Could always keep the Phoenix as an overkill swap for quick regen, without having to waste an actual skill point on

Redemption.

Pretty much my thinking at this point. Unless it works better for another build.