For pure light sorc players in Ladder, do you think Infinity is still worth it when using Sunder?

-17 % ELR, basically. Is that really worth not using Insight?

I guess you could run Griffons + Infinity + a couple of facets + Sunder for max 50 % LR enemies or so (and all immunes broken), allowing you to NOT use the Crescent Moon which helps a lot with gear options; Oculus, HOTO, etc; as I'm assuming max 50 % LR, especially for players1, is going to be plenty.

But even in this scenario, wouldn't you be better off going for max 67 % LR + Insight instead, as wouldn't that still probably easily be enough damage?

Edit: Ie, currently (I'm non-ladder), I'm using just Infinity + Griff + 2 facets; so basically Infinity + 28 ELR, and aside from the occasional unbreakable immunes, this seems to be plenty enough damage already. So it feels like the Sunder replaces the Infinity, rather than adds well with it. Just curious if anyone is actually using both of these together and why.

I don't get your question.
The new meta on ladder is self-use Infinity + Griffon while merc uses Insight.
Self-use Infinity, you get also the -(45-55)% To Enemy Lightning Resistance, not only the

Conviction aura.

Adding to the self-wield aspect, Infinity isn't just about breaking immunities or reducing immunes further. It is also about a just plain massive damage boost on non-immunes as it hits for the full -85%

Conviction there, regardless of whether or not you use a sunder.

Plus with a sunder, you actually get the full -17% bonus (in addition to everything else) on every immune, including those you couldn't even break before, as opposed to a reduced (or no) effective bonus on any immune that started at >100 res. A sunder doesn't replace Infinity, it actually makes it better. It basically moves it from "significant dmg bonus + breaking immunities" to "same or higher significant dmg bonus while no longer needed to break immunities".

Good point regarding non-light immune enemies with enough hp that having the Infinity is really nice; ie

Baal, Dclone, etc.

However, I'm not sure if self wielding is the most effective. I think it might depend. For example, at players1, I feel like it will just be overkill. As I said, even just using Infinity + griffons + 2 facets (no sunder), my dps is already inflated (one-hit kills with CL) except for light immunes and light immunes which are barely broken by Infinity (ie, Black archers and Black lancers). Sunder will obviously solve both of these.

Maxroll.gg interestingly seems to suggest using cmoon, griff, sunder, and having the merc use Infinity; but that still seems like it will be overkill.

I suppose Insight on merc also helps a lot using

Energy Shield making it an even better combo.

Yeah, I've tried self wielding Infinity before with Insight on merc.

Tried vit build, but Insight wasn't enough to keep my mana topped off and I hate using magic pots.

Tried mana ES build, but then Insight felt unnecessary.

And then on the other hand, giving up both main hand and off-hand makes it much harder to get FCR, resist, MF/GF (for gambling), etc. If there are any gear builds out there that let you self wield and still get great stats in those areas (at least some of them), I'd love to see them.

Granted this is all like splitting hairs anyway. Even using just griff + Infinity on merc, kill speeds/survivability is incredible and so it's hard to imagine the game getting much easier than it already is.

You can't get all at the same time!
Self use Infinity gives you more damage but you have to invest FCR, MF else where.

With the same build, you can have different setup based on what you want to focus: MF, damage, balanced, Hybrid, 105FCR or 200FCR.

You can't get all perfect stats. But you can get balanced stats (decent mix of all of the above).

In any case, can't you get pretty close to self-wield damage using cmoon? This allows Spirit which also obviously helps a lot in terms of fcr, fhr, resists, and even +skills (nice to have).

With cmoon you can get to -87 % LR with sunder. By comparison you can get to -107 % LR from self-wielding a perfect rolled Infinity and sunder, at the cost of Spirit or some other off-hand. At players1, as I said earlier, -107 % seems like it might be overkill. Even for

Nova.

Honestly though, both will work fine, I'm sure.

There is no better option among self-use inifinity, CM or even Hoto.
It is just a matter of choice.

lol, I actually prefer Hoto myself for survivability since clear speeds are still really good (at players1 anyway), but I agree, it's based on preference.

mockingbirdreal wrote: 2 years ago

The new meta on ladder is self-use Infinity + Griffon while merc uses Insight.

Is that a result of sunders? Or should lit sorcs have been doing that all along? That would be strange given how long people have been theorycrafting this.

crashtopher wrote: 2 years ago

mockingbirdreal wrote: 2 years ago

The new meta on ladder is self-use Infinity + Griffon while merc uses Insight.

Is that a result of sunders? Or should lit sorcs have been doing that all along? That would be strange given how long people have been theorycrafting this.

Should've been doing that all along.
Even more so without sunders actually since you get less "base -res" on immunes (typically not the full -17 from

Conviction and missing the -5 inherently added by the sunder, when counting from 100), making the flat -res on Infinity self-wielded even more valuable than it is with a sunder, due to the higher relative boost.

There's plenty builds that "people have been theorycrafting" for ages that are accepted as ideal meta but are actually far from optimized. Typically because "people have been theorycrafting" in reality usually just means "some random streamer said ... and everyone copied it without question".

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

crashtopher wrote: 2 years ago

mockingbirdreal wrote: 2 years ago

The new meta on ladder is self-use Infinity + Griffon while merc uses Insight.

Is that a result of sunders? Or should lit sorcs have been doing that all along? That would be strange given how long people have been theorycrafting this.

Should've been doing that all along.
Even more so without sunders actually since you get less "base -res" on immunes (typically not the full -17 from

Conviction and missing the -5 inherently added by the sunder, when counting from 100), making the flat -res on Infinity self-wielded even more valuable than it is with a sunder, due to the higher relative boost.

There's plenty builds that "people have been theorycrafting" for ages that are accepted as ideal meta but are actually far from optimized. Typically because "people have been theorycrafting" in reality usually just means "some random streamer said ... and everyone copied it without question".

But again, you can lower light res on all light immunes down to just 13 % using Sunder, griffs, cmoon, light facets, and Infinity on merc. I'm still not seeing how this isn't enough dps; it looks like plenty. And then it's much easier to keep your other stats well rounded (fhr, fcr, res, etc).

Unless by "meta" you just mean "pure dps at all costs," then yeah I suppose so. Maybe I'm missing something, but dealing 87 % damage seems like more than enough.

Edit: I WANT to feel justified self-wielding Infinity, as personally I think it looks way cooler aesthetically. But it's only an extra 10-20 additional LR when their res is already at just 13 %. Doesn't seem worth it unless you just like damage for the sake of damage.

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

There's plenty builds that "people have been theorycrafting" for ages that are accepted as ideal meta but are actually far from optimized. Typically because "people have been theorycrafting" in reality usually just means "some random streamer said ... and everyone copied it without question".

I see you too are a person of discernment.

Snape75 wrote: 2 years ago

I WANT to feel justified self-wielding Infinity, as personally I think it looks way cooler aesthetically.

I run Chains of Honor on my Sorceress even though everyone was telling me it was a waste of a

Ber rune. I'd say go Infinity even if aesthetics was the only extra in the plus column if that's what you want. You just got to do you sometimes.

Snape75 wrote: 2 years ago

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

crashtopher wrote: 2 years ago

Is that a result of sunders? Or should lit sorcs have been doing that all along? That would be strange given how long people have been theorycrafting this.

Should've been doing that all along.
Even more so without sunders actually since you get less "base -res" on immunes (typically not the full -17 from

Conviction and missing the -5 inherently added by the sunder, when counting from 100), making the flat -res on Infinity self-wielded even more valuable than it is with a sunder, due to the higher relative boost.

There's plenty builds that "people have been theorycrafting" for ages that are accepted as ideal meta but are actually far from optimized. Typically because "people have been theorycrafting" in reality usually just means "some random streamer said ... and everyone copied it without question".

But again, you can lower light res on all light immunes down to just 13 % using Sunder, griffs, cmoon, light facets, and Infinity on merc. I'm still not seeing how this isn't enough dps; it looks like plenty. And then it's much easier to keep your other stats well rounded (fhr, fcr, res, etc).

Unless by "meta" you just mean "pure dps at all costs," then yeah I suppose so. Maybe I'm missing something, but dealing 87 % damage seems like more than enough.

Edit: I WANT to feel justified self-wielding Infinity, as personally I think it looks way cooler aesthetically. But it's only an extra 10-20 additional LR when their res is already at just 13 %. Doesn't seem worth it unless you just like damage for the sake of damage.

Oh, it is absolutely enough. If all you want is "enough", then you don't need an Infinity at all, so long as you have a sunder. Not even on your merc.
That whole discussion isn't about "what is enough?" but rather "how can I truly maximize performance?" (the answer to which isn't the same for everyone mind you).

Though even with the noted "only an extra 10-20", if you go from 13% to -7%, it may not sound like a lot but that's actually still a just under 23% relative damage increase which I would argue is quite significant to say the least as you're moving from doing 87% of your normal dmg to 107% of your normal damage (a tad less in reality as you give up some +skill on your shield for it). Again, it is definitely not "needed" and in many cases (especially if you tend to play alone) complete overkill but then again..most things in this game end up being complete overkill once optimized (or closing in on it).

Does the complete lack of + to skills and FCR given by Infinity make it a tie with the most common alternative (Spirit, SoJ, etc.) in terms of actual DPS?

Tetra wrote: 2 years ago

Does the complete lack of + to skills and FCR given by Infinity make it a tie with the most common alternative (Spirit, SoJ, etc.) in terms of actual DPS?

Depends on the actual exact comparison.
If you go for all-out max damage and nothing but, then self-wield Infinity generally outperforms the missing +skill for both, a

Nova and a (chain)light build. As usual, the applicability of that answer refers to your actual needs and play areas and such though because that's speaking in terms of "potential theoretical dmg output".

If you play in a way/in areas where you very rarely to never encounter mobs with noteworthy light resist (not just talking about immunes here), then you can

Cap your targets at -100 even without a self-wield, meaning you give up your skills/FCR to gain absolutely nothing as a non-self-wield build typically stacks up roughly 110-120 -res. Self-wield is typically closer to around 170. So 0 res mobs will be capped in either case but 50+ res mobs will take noticeably more dmg when self-wielding.

Either one can easily reach 105 FCR so the difference in FCR for

Nova only applies when comparing to a 200 FCR

Nova build (which itself gives up skills to get there and will still end up lower). For (chain)lightning, a traditional build does typically cast 1 frame faster without sacrificing anything for it but does end up lower still. Though you could push that extra frame while self-wielding as well, by giving up a few more skills for it.

Self-wield does usually start to fall behind however if you refuse to just optimize for damage and still want to say

Cap resistances despite self-wielding. To get that, you typically end up sacrificing even more skills and/or another frame in cast rate which then does add up and become quite costly.

Be that all as it may, I for one would ultimately call it a matter of preference because as Snape correctly captured: Either way, it'll be enough dps cuz..well, light sorc..

Ah, you're right; just under +23 % relative damage is no joke. This is why I'm really excited about the Sunder charm; Steel scarabs are like 115 LR, I think, so after Infinity it's only 98 - gear, ends up at about 70 LR; with same gear and sunder, I'll be at 50 LR; 67 % more damage!

Also doing "what's fun" is not an argument to be taken lightly. I agree with phantomcap that sometimes you just gotta do you.