I lost interest in D2R because of Sunder charms

davme_mcreg wrote: 2 years ago

There are only 12 monsters that cannot have lightning immunity broken with just a

Lower Resist

Wand, and 1 that cannot break with only Infinity. Lightning can go anywhere with Infinity
...
There are 44 monster immunities can cannot break with

Lower Resist, and 9 that cannot break with Infinity. However with both fire can go anywhere except for megademons, (and can we just take a second to thank the person who said "we need a

Megademon!").
...
Here's the kicker. Cold has 20 monsters that cannot be broken with Infinity and

Lower Resist. Cold is relegated to just a few areas they can farm in unless they have a merc that can kill for them.
...
There are 33 poison immune monsters that cannot break with

Lower Resist. I have never run poison so I can't speak to what it's like to play a poison class.

Those numbers are off. Honestly not sure where you got the 1 for non-breaking lightning for (just as an example).

Conviction caps at -150, Infinity

Conviction hits with -85. On immunes, either only applies at 1/5 so -30 and -17 respectively. To break immunities, you need to drop a mob to at least 99 res left. So with max

Conviction, that's up to 129 res, with Infinity up to 116. If you look at lightning immunes in hell, that leaves 7 you can't break with Infinity and 2 you can't break even with a capped pally conv.

Similarly, fire has 33 that Infinity can't break, not 9. Just as a second example.

rikus wrote: 2 years ago

also, you get a debuff of -75%?? in hell...phew.. that sounds risky even to put the charm on. it means you need like 300% total resistances to survive.

250 to still

Cap at 75 actually. Certainly not nearly as much to merely (easily) survive.

davme_mcreg wrote: 2 years ago

It is clear that assassin traps (as well as sorc hydras), do not gain the benefit of a sunder charm so they are left far behind. However I do not expect this will stay this way. I believe they will find a way to have the assassin traps and sorc hydras included.

This is actually an interesting one. Normally, this should be wrong because hydras don't work like traps/pets, they actually get benefits from your gear and currently inherit -res from the sorc's gear. As a result, sunder should work for them as well. Weirdly enough however, sunder apparently became a disjointed mechanic from the norm and does in fact not work for hydras either. Strange..and dumb..but oh well..back to being left behind for

Hydra sorcs.





As for the whole "

Cold Mastery needs to be reworked!" thing...does it though?
In terms of the ultimate outcome, -res is the same as +dmg. Either one increases the damage you do. The difference is that depending on your gear/build, one is better than the other as they ping pong off one another. For light and fire sorcs, -res gear tends to be infinitely better because they already get a ton of +dmg from mastery. For cold sorcs, it is the exact opposite.
Turning -res into +dmg on

Cold Mastery doesn't change the final dmg (which really isn't too high if you contrast it to other sorc builds). It merely forces them to gear the same way a light sorc does (so...even less variety) and grab an Infinity. If the -res to +dmg switch is then done with evened out numbers, they actually end up doing even more dmg because not only do they still get the -res (now from gear) but they would get +dmg on top of it. It doesn't change how they'd play, it merely changes how they have to gear by making Infinity pretty much obligatory for every sorc tree now, rather than having at least one exception.
Plus a change like that would also require reworking/rebalancing a ton of sorc gear as all of the cold stuff is based around +dmg and would then have to turn into -res (in likely different amounts) to make up for that. So..tons of work for ultimately no real impact on performance but solely for shoe-horning cold sorcs into the same forced Infinity as other sorcs.

Crispin wrote: 2 years ago

louner wrote: 2 years ago

The fact that they are coming just killed the enjoyment from the game for me. And it seems like they will introduce them as is.

Why? The big part of the game for me was to be forced to play specific builds to clear specific areas. I never wanted to play whatever I want, I wanted to find solutions to challenges the game gives me. I tried to make every obscure character work in some way and I started to look into more obscure runewords like Prudence, Wrath, stacking Magic Damage Reduction and other stats that are overlooked etc. Now it looks like the solution to everything will be Sunder charm + Infinity (or Bramble).

So that takes the entire enjoyment from the game. I also don’t want to play with second-best gear choices. The moment I know that Sunder + Infinity would be the best option, playing something else would give no satisfaction to me. And I just don’t want to play the game like that. I wanted to be challenged in some way.

it seems you me you forget something here.

there are builds that clear everything in mere seconds without Infinity or sunder charms. I know I keep bringing up my dreamer and yet again, here we are. I built him as a zealer, not the foh variant. he does not need a merc whatsoever and he bashes every mob in the game down in mere seconds. dia,

Baal,

Lilith you name it. ubers alone - fuck em. ubers in p8 - fuck em. gloams/Black souls heal him and stygian dolls explode in the lightning aura.

sunder charms will change absolutely nothing for him.

the only thing that changes with the charms is that weak builds have a chance to clear hell. and that is not a bad thing to do.

What, kind sir, is a dreamer?

knightfall1985 wrote: 2 years ago

What, kind sir, is a dreamer?

Must be tesladin :

Zeal paladin with dual Dream.
No Infinity but you need 2

Jah for dual Dream,

Lo for Grief and

Jah+

Ber for Infinity if you want to tele around as a Sorc.

With the new charm, Crescent Moon should be better than Grief.

knightfall1985 wrote: 2 years ago

Crispin wrote: 2 years ago

louner wrote: 2 years ago

The fact that they are coming just killed the enjoyment from the game for me. And it seems like they will introduce them as is.

Why? The big part of the game for me was to be forced to play specific builds to clear specific areas. I never wanted to play whatever I want, I wanted to find solutions to challenges the game gives me. I tried to make every obscure character work in some way and I started to look into more obscure runewords like Prudence, Wrath, stacking Magic Damage Reduction and other stats that are overlooked etc. Now it looks like the solution to everything will be Sunder charm + Infinity (or Bramble).

So that takes the entire enjoyment from the game. I also don’t want to play with second-best gear choices. The moment I know that Sunder + Infinity would be the best option, playing something else would give no satisfaction to me. And I just don’t want to play the game like that. I wanted to be challenged in some way.

it seems you me you forget something here.

there are builds that clear everything in mere seconds without Infinity or sunder charms. I know I keep bringing up my dreamer and yet again, here we are. I built him as a zealer, not the foh variant. he does not need a merc whatsoever and he bashes every mob in the game down in mere seconds. dia,

Baal,

Lilith you name it. ubers alone - fuck em. ubers in p8 - fuck em. gloams/Black souls heal him and stygian dolls explode in the lightning aura.

sunder charms will change absolutely nothing for him.

the only thing that changes with the charms is that weak builds have a chance to clear hell. and that is not a bad thing to do.

What, kind sir, is a dreamer?

I'm sorry, a dreamer is a paladin with two pieces of the runeword Dream. you can put it in helms and shields. Dream puts a

Holy Shock aura on when the items are worn and the aura stacks. on top of that the paladin maxes all synergies to

Holy Shock (but not

Holy Shock itself, as you only need the synergies, not the aura itself. the aura is provided by the runeword). Dream + the synergies give all the lightning damage to your attacks as well.
you can play the dreamer then as a zealer or as a fist of heavens paladin with the massive

Holy Shock bonus. in both cases he has amazing single target damage (with Grief 4k to 8k per hit, with 72% attack speed hits 6 times per second) and amazing aoe damage as you have a lvl30

Holy Shock aura + paladin synergies.

mockingbirdreal wrote: 2 years ago

knightfall1985 wrote: 2 years ago

What, kind sir, is a dreamer?

Must be tesladin :

Zeal paladin with dual Dream.
No Infinity but you need 2

Jah for dual Dream,

Lo for Grief and

Jah+

Ber for Infinity if you want to tele around as a Sorc.

With the new charm, Crescent Moon should be better than Grief.

yeah, but, personally, I don't use an Enigma because you can

Charge everywhere and with this you are as fast as a telesorc.

also, I need to test several weapons with the new charm: Crescent Moon,

Ghostflame,

Astreon's Iron Ward to see if they do any good. schaeffer's hammer or even a baranar or a

Lightsabre could be valid too.
time will tell.

Forgot that the new charms +

Conviction is already enough.
Crescent Moon is overkill.
Maybe HoJ + Dragon Armor + 2 charms then you can walk and see things died in P8.

mockingbirdreal wrote: 2 years ago

Forgot that the new charms +

Conviction is already enough.
Crescent Moon is overkill.
Maybe HoJ + Dragon Armor + 2 charms then you can walk and see things died in P8.

I do have two Dragon + hoj stored for testing. will see how that works out. should be pretty good, yes.

i still have a Hand of Justice in stock i wanted to make a fire paladin. but than blizz made him weaker. but now with this charm and Dragon. i have to test it

manu151186 wrote: 2 years ago

i still have a Hand of Justice in stock i wanted to make a fire paladin. but than blizz made him weaker. but now with this charm and Dragon. i have to test it

No, he is stronger now.

in the first ptr 2.4 he was amazing. but blizz made him weaker. I wanted him as new cow runner

If you want to take any positive out of Sundered we know they are going to be gated to

Terror Zones which are also forced into Ladder ONLY for now. Therefore, if you are vehemently against Sundered, well then you have the optionality of sticking it out in Non-Ladder.

The real open question is Drop-Rate. Based on the initial game-data in PTR it is showing that it may drop similar to Gheeds. This would be a significant issue - as these types of charms should be far more difficult to acquire knowing you can also stack them in inventory.

I am also pleased that Facets will play a significant role now especially earlier on before being able to acquire Infinity. Not that Facets were not functional, but they serve a very surgical purpose now for many builds.

End of the day - Cold Sorc is the new S+ tier given

Pierce in combination with

Cold Rupture Sunder. Literal insanity when I tested this in every area last 24 hours and that was without facets as well or Infinity.

Hammerdins didn't get really any remote buff with this as the magic sunder is as expected on a relative basis useless. Poison Necs got a significant boost, among majority of other elementals.

End of the day Infinity is still going to be required to help reduced the 95% Resistance over time. Sunders were certainly the Lazy Man's balancing.

Wish we had more QoL in 2.5, but time will tell how this all shakes out.

Th3ory wrote: 2 years ago

If you want to take any positive out of Sundered we know they are going to be gated to

Terror Zones which are also forced into Ladder ONLY for now. Therefore, if you are vehemently against Sundered, well then you have the optionality of sticking it out in Non-Ladder.

The real open question is Drop-Rate. Based on the initial game-data in PTR it is showing that it may drop similar to Gheeds. This would be a significant issue - as these types of charms should be far more difficult to acquire knowing you can also stack them in inventory.

I am also pleased that Facets will play a significant role now especially earlier on before being able to acquire Infinity. Not that Facets were not functional, but they server a very surgical purpose now for many builds.

End of the day - Cold Sorc is the new S+ tier given

Pierce in combination with

Cold Rupture Sunder. Literal insanity when I tested this in every area last 24 hours and that was without facets as well or Infinity.

Hammerdins didn't get really any remote buff with this as the magic sunder is as expected on a relative basis useless. Poison Necs got a significant boost, among majority of other elementals.

End of the day Infinity is still going to be required to help reduced the 95% Resistance over time. Sunders were certainly the Lazy Man's balancing.

Wish we had more QoL in 2.5, but time will tell how this all shakes out.

I thought that, too.
you have more variety, facets and in general any -res item will have more weight and low/mid builds get a boost and will probably be able to clear hell.

all in all, you will be able to play more what you want instead of being forced to play a build that can clear hell or maybe even survive in hell.
this is something I don't find bad.

also, I think the sunder charms should be *REALLY RARE* like almost non-existant in order to get a big reward if you find one.
but activision will activision :shrug:

Th3ory wrote: 2 years ago

The real open question is Drop-Rate. Based on the initial game-data in PTR it is showing that it may drop similar to Gheeds. This would be a significant issue - as these types of charms should be far more difficult to acquire knowing you can also stack them in inventory.

Where did you get that information?
In PTR Sundering Charms doesn't drop from monsters.

Th3ory wrote: 2 years ago

End of the day Infinity is still going to be required to help reduced the 95% Resistance over time. Sunders were certainly the Lazy Man's balancing.

Level 12

Conviction Aura so only 85%

mockingbirdreal wrote: 2 years ago

Th3ory wrote: 2 years ago

The real open question is Drop-Rate. Based on the initial game-data in PTR it is showing that it may drop similar to Gheeds. This would be a significant issue - as these types of charms should be far more difficult to acquire knowing you can also stack them in inventory.

Where did you get that information?
In PTR Sundering Charms doesn't drop from monsters.

Th3ory wrote: 2 years ago

End of the day Infinity is still going to be required to help reduced the 95% Resistance over time. Sunders were certainly the Lazy Man's balancing.

Level 12

Conviction Aura so only 85%

I said "help reduce the 95%" not that it would wipe it out

It is ticked as ilvl75 - not exactly requiring a significant mlvl to acquire; also seems to have same rarity as Gheeds based on dissecting the game data - so we are loosely assuming; a lot of folks in our Discord live were discussing and this is where we believe it may currently be sitting. We know it only drops from Elite Packs in

Terror Zones

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

Those numbers are off. Honestly not sure where you got the 1 for non-breaking lightning for (just as an example).

Conviction caps at -150, Infinity

Conviction hits with -85. On immunes, either only applies at 1/5 so -30 and -17 respectively. To break immunities, you need to drop a mob to at least 99 res left. So with max

Conviction, that's up to 129 res, with Infinity up to 116. If you look at lightning immunes in hell, that leaves 7 you can't break with Infinity and 2 you can't break even with a capped pally conv.

I listed my source at the top of my post, but I'll give it again.

https://diablo-archive.fandom.com/wiki/ ... Diablo_II)

It shows in the charts how you break the immunities. You need both Infinity and a

Lower Resist

Wand. I've never tested it in game myself, and I certainly wasn't going to do the math for each monster in the game myself so it could very well be wrong.

davme_mcreg wrote: 2 years ago

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

Those numbers are off. Honestly not sure where you got the 1 for non-breaking lightning for (just as an example).

Conviction caps at -150, Infinity

Conviction hits with -85. On immunes, either only applies at 1/5 so -30 and -17 respectively. To break immunities, you need to drop a mob to at least 99 res left. So with max

Conviction, that's up to 129 res, with Infinity up to 116. If you look at lightning immunes in hell, that leaves 7 you can't break with Infinity and 2 you can't break even with a capped pally conv.

I listed my source at the top of my post, but I'll give it again.

https://diablo-archive.fandom.com/wiki/ ... Diablo_II)

It shows in the charts how you break the immunities. You need both Infinity and a

Lower Resist

Wand. I've never tested it in game myself, and I certainly wasn't going to do the math for each monster in the game myself so it could very well be wrong.

You did list the source, you also misread it though it seems. Even if you took their "breaks with C" as "breaks with Infinity" (which is incorrect as it refers to breaking with a capped

Conviction, not the one on Infinity) then you'd still have 2 non-breaking for light and not your 1. Basically, to figure out the ones not breaking with Infinity, all you have to do is look at how many have res > 116.

Equally, the lower res part refers to a capped lower res of -70 (=14 vs immunes). A

Wand caps out at lvl 3 = -41 or -8 respectively. That'd leave 19 unbreakable, rather than the 12 you noted.

Infinity +

Wand as you're noting now (as opposed to specifically noting "just a

Wand" and "only Infinity" in your original post) would still be off as that's -24 total for 2 unbreakable, not 1.

I test

Hydra on fire sorc. Sundered charm dont break fire imune for this skill.

Hydra act like minion/pet. This was shock for me. This mean also -fire resist cannot help, only LR and Infinity.

Some consider

Hydra & traps not working with Sunder a bug and expect them to be included at release. But then again, we are talking about Blizzard...

Ravoc wrote: 2 years ago

Some consider

Hydra & traps not working with Sunder a bug and expect them to be included at release. But then again, we are talking about Blizzard...

It is not a bug per se, but rather a side effect of the way the game mechanics work right now.

I reckon the game considers hydras and traps as minions and the sunder mechanic only applies to the character itself.

They are probably going to address this one way or the other as it really brings down characters like the Trapsin or the

Hydra Sorceress, no matter if these two builds in particular are popular or not.

Hydras do not act as minions. Traps do.

That's why traps never got any benefit from -res on gear (e.g. griffon's). That's also why sunder can be expected to not work for them. Can't confirm that one due to a lack of assassins on the PTR to test with but it'd make sense (in terms of mechanics, not logically of course).

Hydras on the other hand have always been a bit special in that they're kind of pets but not really and do not follow the same limitations as "real" minions. That's why hydras actually do fully benefit from gear and things like -res on Flickering Flame. Because of that, one should've expected that sunder work with

Hydra because everything else does as well. And yet, for some odd reason, they seem to have added an exception for it, explicitly making sunder not work with hydras.

Traps not getting it would match with prior design (albeit dumb). But hydras not getting it is a deviation from everything else and really just feels like a bug/silly oversight in this here rushed implementation.