PSA Reminder: Lowballers

Also want to add, the flip side is also very annoying. People who think their item is worth much more than it actually is.

E.g. trying to sell Enigma for 2-3

Ber runes etc.

If people are too lazy to do 1 or 2 clicks to see recent sales of their items, maybe they shouldn't be selling. If people lowball me all day, I consider them a free bump and carry on. Nobody wants to pay "market value" and no one wants to lose on their items. We get stuck in an oversaturated stagnant market, unless we undercut and take less than "market value".

oldboldsummoner wrote: 3 years ago

Responsibility lies with the one with a large advantage. This isn't a duty responsibility, but more of a moral responsibility. If a great disparity is present, then exploitation can easily occur, hence being taken advantage of. To use an exaggerated example, would you sell a $2 chocolate bar to a 5 year old for the $10 his dad gave him to spend when he doesn't know he can buy 5 of those (not counting tax) at the corner store?

To play devil's advocate here - is the man selling the $2 chocolate bar to the 5 year old for $10 not teaching the 5 year old a valuable lesson? The lost $10 won't ruin that kid's life, and he learns a lot about the value of money and how to properly regard it. The 5 year old that never learns that lesson may indeed lose a life-ruining amount of money later in life, but the 5 year old that did learn the lesson may eventually be saved an untold fortune later in life all for the price of a $10 chocolate bar.

Beardozer wrote: 2 years ago

oldboldsummoner wrote: 3 years ago

Responsibility lies with the one with a large advantage. This isn't a duty responsibility, but more of a moral responsibility. If a great disparity is present, then exploitation can easily occur, hence being taken advantage of. To use an exaggerated example, would you sell a $2 chocolate bar to a 5 year old for the $10 his dad gave him to spend when he doesn't know he can buy 5 of those (not counting tax) at the corner store?

To play devil's advocate here - is the man selling the $2 chocolate bar to the 5 year old for $10 not teaching the 5 year old a valuable lesson? The lost $10 won't ruin that kid's life, and he learns a lot about the value of money and how to properly regard it. The 5 year old that never learns that lesson may indeed lose a life-ruining amount of money later in life, but the 5 year old that did learn the lesson may eventually be saved an untold fortune later in life all for the price of a $10 chocolate bar.

There's a silver lining, I suppose.

I've bought many of things very cheaply because that's what the sellers asked for.

When I enter a game named ED-IAS jewel 4

Um and leave with a shiny 39/15.. that's not my fault. Its also not my fault when I turn around and sell it for

Lo + 2

Ist.

Sellers are ultimately responsible for what they accept. End of discussion.

Roxxia wrote: 2 years ago

I've bought many of things very cheaply because that's what the sellers asked for.

When I enter a game named ED-IAS jewel 4

Um and leave with a shiny 39/15.. that's not my fault. Its also not my fault when I turn around and sell it for

Lo + 2

Ist.

Damn, I think for new comers these kind of magic or rare items are very hard to value, when you can't price-check them by their names.
So I think for this purpose, there should be an item-value-appraisal section in the forum here, where people can go and ask for help in determining a magic or rare item's price when he/she thinks there is some value in it. I already see some other trading forums have done it.

It's also very convenient and useful to check here price-check/magic-items-t8418.html and here price-check/base-items-t8420.html. Though this guide is not 100% correct - no guides are - but it always leads me on the right path when I'm trying to determining an item's value, because the values in this guide are based on history datas, and real datas cannot lie. Even if you want to value a rare item but rare items are not listed, you can get a sense of what attributes of items are desired by looking at the magic item section.

I'm not angry, I'm just jealous xD

Roxxia wrote: 2 years ago

I've bought many of things very cheaply because that's what the sellers asked for.

When I enter a game named ED-IAS jewel 4

Um and leave with a shiny 39/15.. that's not my fault. Its also not my fault when I turn around and sell it for

Lo + 2

Ist.

Sellers are ultimately responsible for what they accept. End of discussion.

Congratulations on the jewel. Good on you to snag that steal of a deal, but the kind of trade you had isn't quite what this thread is about. If the seller said "wug" and you said you'd give him an

Um for it, that's where the lowballing comes in. Should the seller be completely clueless and fail to realize that he's holding a near-perfect gg jewel and accept your paltry offer, while you know he has no idea what it's worth, then it's scummy exploitation. But if the seller fails to accurately appraise the true worth of his item and sets his price that low, then it all falls squarely on them and you didn't lowball or exploit the seller.

Part of what makes lowballing distasteful and possibly unethical is that the people who are doing it are very likely hoping that sellers are ignorant so they can try and take advantage of that. I'm not talking about something like offering a

Vex and a

Gul for something that's worth at least an

Ohm. That kind of thing is where you seek to gain thin edges in value and possibly negotiate. I'm talking about something like offering a

Fal for something that's worth at least a

Mal. Come on, like really? It's possible that the person making the low offer is also clueless, but it's much more likely that they know the score.

Well I have to disagree. An Items value is what buyers are willing to pay. Not, what the seller says it's worth.

See, lets think about Walmart. If Walmart has a particular product for sale for $10 and nobody buys it, Walmart will then lower the price until it sells.

The D2 economy, like any economy, works the same. There are many variables.

There are plenty of items in the game that I will sell for whatever the offer is, regardless of its market value, just because I don't want to hold onto it. There are other items I won't sell unless I can get more than market value because I know their worth.

Haven't yall ever been to a swap or garage sale? If you have, odds are pretty good that you've lowballed the sellers there.. and that's in real life.

Get a grip, stop flaming and name calling people for offering low. That's just one small part of economics.

Lowballing is just another form of scam lowballers try to justify by economics. It is exploiting the unaware. Period.
I personally squelch everyone not willing to pay at least a fair price for my trades in terms of e.g. offering like a

Mal for a Griffon's etc.

Roxxia wrote: 2 years ago

Well I have to disagree. An Items value is what buyers are willing to pay. Not, what the seller says it's worth.

See, lets think about Walmart. If Walmart has a particular product for sale for $10 and nobody buys it, Walmart will then lower the price until it sells.

The D2 economy, like any economy, works the same. There are many variables.

There are plenty of items in the game that I will sell for whatever the offer is, regardless of its market value, just because I don't want to hold onto it. There are other items I won't sell unless I can get more than market value because I know their worth.

Haven't yall ever been to a swap or garage sale? If you have, odds are pretty good that you've lowballed the sellers there.. and that's in real life.

Get a grip, stop flaming and name calling people for offering low. That's just one small part of economics.

Strictly speaking, value and price are not the same and should not be conflated. Walk into the same Walmart in your example and have a look around. You will see plenty of price tags everywhere. Some item might have a low price, but a high value to the right buyer because they will have more utility based on their needs. There is indeed a general price that reaches the market equilibrium. You might argue that this is the valuation of a particular good or service by the group of buyers and this collective valuation (done independently through unrelated and individual transactions) is what determines the value, and you would be correct, but this is simply the market's attempt at approximating the value of that particular item for the average random buyer. In theory price = value, but also in theory everyone's a rational actor and we all know that isn't true. There will always be a disparity between price and value, since they're not the same thing in practice, due to the range of needs and demands. And since they're not the same thing in practice, the end result is that they're not fundamentally the same.

Bringing it back to Diablo 2, I don't play melee characters, for example, and therefore an item like a Grief sword has no value to me, since I can't effectively use it nor can I equip it on my act 2 hireling. Therefore, I will never buy one at market or near-market price. I do, however, know that melee characters greatly value it for obvious reasons, and because of this, I can set my own price around the market price. Person A might come along looking for a second Grief that they'd like to have but don't really need and not pay the slightly extra cost, while person B desperately needs that Grief to complete their build and will gladly pay it. I've said that it's worth x value because that's the price I've assigned to x, but there are two buyers who have values y and z in their minds for persons A and B, respectively. Here, y < x and z >=x, and so person B makes the purchase. There is one fixed price (mine), but at least two different values (A's and B's).

To answer your question, I've never been to a garage sale.

Schaukelente wrote: 2 years ago

Lowballing is just another form of scam lowballers try to justify by economics. It is exploiting the unaware. Period.

Lowballing is not a scam in any way or form. Buyers are expected to try to get items for the lowest price possible, sellers are expected to try to get the highest price possible for their items, and they will meet somewhere in the middle. Both parties are responsible for determining valuation. To call this process a scam is incorrect and not in alignment with our rules. The bartering process may "feel" wrong to you, but is not a scam.

Good use of the squelch feature though. We put this in place so you'd be able to narrow down your personal market to whatever criteria you wish.

Beardozer wrote: 2 years ago

Schaukelente wrote: 2 years ago

Lowballing is just another form of scam lowballers try to justify by economics. It is exploiting the unaware. Period.

Lowballing is not a scam in any way or form. Buyers are expected to try to get items for the lowest price possible, sellers are expected to try to get the highest price possible for their items, and they will meet somewhere in the middle. Both parties are responsible for determining valuation. To call this process a scam is incorrect and not in alignment with our rules. The bartering process may "feel" wrong to you, but is not a scam.

Good use of the squelch feature though. We put this in place so you'd be able to narrow down your personal market to whatever criteria you wish.

That might be true for your sight on it or in terms of the rules set here. Nevertheless, like the economics approach, it presupposes an equal knowledge on both sides which is in many cases just not the reality. To keep an overview of the market takes time and effort and sometimes just a hint to the right direction for where to look at stuff etc. Sure, this forum holds more than enough information for that but some players just don't have the time and/or knowledge maybe even a language barrier problem.
As long as there is no way to make sure both parties are on par this will stay a form of scam to me since most lowballers do it on purpose. So it is not just a "feeling" but stands correct in terms of my definition of it.

So if it is no scam for you or the forum rules that is ok by me and I found a solution that works for me here.

Schaukelente wrote: 2 years ago

Lowballing is just another form of scam lowballers try to justify by economics. It is exploiting the unaware. Period.
I personally squelch everyone not willing to pay at least a fair price for my trades in terms of e.g. offering like a

Mal for a Griffon's etc.

Totally this.
I posted a

Great Poleaxe

Eth with 4 sockets with Insight to sell. Some ass thought I wouldn't know the price so he offered a

Mal and spammed me with PMs offering less than half the real value.
And these guys usually have alot of "trust" earned.

Scam - A dishonest scheme; A fraud.

Making a low offer is not a scam. Period. End of story. Making ANY offer is NOT saying "this is what it's worth" in any way. It's saying "this is what I(personally) will give for it" & nothing more. Therefore it is not being dishonest in any way, & by extension NOT a scam.

EnragedN3wb wrote: 2 years ago

Scam - A dishonest scheme; A fraud.

Making a low offer is not a scam. Period. End of story. Making ANY offer is NOT saying "this is what it's worth" in any way. It's saying "this is what I(personally) will give for it" & nothing more. Therefore it is not being dishonest in any way, & by extension NOT a scam.

Yup. Calling lowballing a scam is incorrect. You could argue that it's morally dubious, but it's not at all in the neighbourhood of fraud.

EnragedN3wb wrote: 2 years ago

Scam - A dishonest scheme

That is exactly what it is. We are not talking about the "customer" not knowing the value of the item nor what it is worth to her/him or what it will resell for (with the last point being the value that item has for them). That is the point so thanks for coming up with this definition. Lowballers do know all this and they do it on purpose . That is dishonest AND it is schemed and by extension a scam.

But I guess I made my opinion clear about the topic and will leave it to that now.

The thing about flippers is they just waste a lot of time flipping those items and yes they can brag that they flipped your items for higher but honestly its a waste of time and I know they don't have a lot of fun with this game

Schaukelente wrote: 2 years ago

EnragedN3wb wrote: 2 years ago

Scam - A dishonest scheme

That is exactly what it is. We are not talking about the "customer" not knowing the value of the item nor what it is worth to her/him or what it will resell for (with the last point being the value that item has for them). That is the point so thanks for coming up with this definition. Lowballers do know all this and they do it on purpose . That is dishonest AND it is schemed and by extension a scam.

But I guess I made my opinion clear about the topic and will leave it to that now.

Dishonesty requires deceit, or lie, or misinformation. Lowballing is none of these. Lowballing is offering below market.

And with the market information so easily searchable, I find it dubious for you to continue expounding that lowballing is preying on ignorance. At this point in the game's life of over 20 years, any ignorance to market value of this game's item is WILFUL ignorance. If conducted on this website, I would say you are borderline scamming yourself if you refuse to check the price before agreeing to trade.

I have a lot of fun playing the market. I'm playing the game just like anyone else and making a ton of profits while doing it. Yall can mindlessly hork travs all day trying to find that HR once a month, I'll be giving free rushes and soloing

Baal and Chaos in 8 player games.

MarcWizard wrote: 2 years ago

Dishonesty requires deceit, or lie, or misinformation. Lowballing is none of these. Lowballing is offering below market.

Exactly.

If I offer you a stick for your car with full intent to give you the stick for the car. That offer would be completely a completely true statement, & therefore completely honest. I would not be claiming that stick has the same value as your car. Only that I would make the trade willingly.

The morality of that can be argued until everyone in here is blue in the face, myself included... Still isn't a scam.