Puckey wrote: 3 years ago
The rune exchanges in here are getting ridiculous and I'm actually starting to call out any trade that tries to rip off players.
Do not comment on trades with your opinions please, this isn't twitter. All that does is cause fights and ruins the trade thread for the OP who posted the item and we the mods have to clean it up. You aren't saving anyone, people are free to accept and ignore trades as they please here.
We have a price check section for a reason. And you can easily look up any item to see what it is trading for recently and anytime in the past.
Puckey wrote: 3 years ago
The rune exchanges in here are getting ridiculous and I'm actually starting to call out any trade that tries to rip off players.
Do not comment on trades with your opinions please, this isn't twitter. All that does is cause fights and ruins the trade thread for the OP who posted the item and we the mods have to clean it up. You aren't saving anyone, people are free to accept and ignore trades as they please here.
We have a price check section for a reason. And you can easily look up any item to see what it is trading for recently and anytime in the past.
Understood, however I fear that without any moderation at all scammers will just run rampant.
Puckey wrote: 3 years ago
Understood, however I fear that without any moderation at all scammers will just run rampant.
Its not a scam to be cheap. lol. If a new player gets a Ber rune and seriously doesnt look up in any way its value and gives it away for nothing, thats his choice/mistake to make. No one needs to "save" them.
They should do more research, ANY research, before posting any items. Literally takes 2 seconds to look up recent trades of any item in the game.
Puckey wrote: 3 years ago
The rune exchanges in here are getting ridiculous and I'm actually starting to call out any trade that tries to rip off players.
Do not comment on trades with your opinions please, this isn't twitter. All that does is cause fights and ruins the trade thread for the OP who posted the item and we the mods have to clean it up. You aren't saving anyone, people are free to accept and ignore trades as they please here.
We have a price check section for a reason. And you can easily look up any item to see what it is trading for recently and anytime in the past.
Understood, however I fear that without any moderation at all scammers will just run rampant.
It's not a scam if the transaction is completed.
Like in the real world, you cann't educate everyone and not everyone will listen. It's something life has taught me.
You can however undercut someone else, that's another story
I think there is a middle Ground to be considered here. For example, the interface for rune exchanges could be changed in a way that you not only directly specify what you are selling but also what you want in exchange. If the "ask" part of the trade exceeds the average "value" of the completed trades for that specific rune in a given timeframe by a large margin, the site could set a flag to inform not only the seller but the buyer that this trade is potentially "unfair". For item to item trades this is obviously hard to implement. Anyway, just my two cents.
Puckey wrote: 3 years ago
I think there is a middle Ground to be considered here. For example, the interface for rune exchanges could be changed in a way that you not only directly specify what you are selling but also what you want in exchange. If the "ask" part of the trade exceeds the average "value" of the completed trades for that specific rune in a given timeframe by a large margin, the site could set a flag to inform not only the seller but the buyer that this trade is potentially "unfair". For item to item trades this is obviously hard to implement. Anyway, just my two cents.
Thats extremely complicated coding-wise to simply cater to people who are too lazy to price check an item. zero chance thats happening. People are just going to have to have a tiny ounce of common sense.
the value of something is whatever the seller and the buyer agree it is, at a certain point in time, based on their needs and wants. some people just want to enjoy the game, and not turn into stock brokers while doing so.
if anything, such guides make trading harder on people. they must no longer think "i have rune x, I really need item x to complete my gear", now they have to think "but can you add 12 ists to make it fair?"
in the real world, a bottle of water costs 10 cents to produce, 1 dollar at the supermarket, 2 dollars at the pub, and 3 dollars in the Club.
are you getting scammed or ripped off every time you buy a water at the Club? you might be tempted to think that you pay for the difference because of the service, the Club's operating costs and so on, and you would be right, bbut the Club still makes a profit because you need a bottle of water at that specific point in time and you are willing to pay 3 bucks for it.
you're not getting scammed. you're gettin exactly what you want, and you don't give it a second thought, you are happy and content.
whomever reads this guide after doing a trade they have been happy with, and sees that they sold their item for less than someone somewhere says it is worth, will have their enjoyment diminished.
Puckey wrote: 3 years ago
I think there is a middle Ground to be considered here. For example, the interface for rune exchanges could be changed in a way that you not only directly specify what you are selling but also what you want in exchange. If the "ask" part of the trade exceeds the average "value" of the completed trades for that specific rune in a given timeframe by a large margin, the site could set a flag to inform not only the seller but the buyer that this trade is potentially "unfair". For item to item trades this is obviously hard to implement. Anyway, just my two cents.
Thats extremely complicated coding-wise to simply cater to people who are too lazy to price check an item. zero chance thats happening. People are just going to have to have a tiny ounce of common sense.
Algorithmically this would actually be very easy to do, however I obviously don't know how the site collects and stores the data that would be necessary for it to function. Just wanted to throw the idea out there.
KrassusD2 wrote: 3 years ago
the value of something is whatever the seller and the buyer agree it is
Ultimately it boils down to this. Plain and simple.
This guide was written to address the problem of people not knowing the value. The site doesn't need to add a hand-holding feature just to prevent people from being bad negotiators. lol
People are using the word scam way too often. I'll get straight to it, asking a lot for an item is not a scam. If a trade is completed and both parties gave what was agreed upon then it's not a scam. If somebody talks somebody else into trading a Ber for an Eld rune, it's not a scam. It's dumb and probably a learning experience for one side of the trade, but not a scam. A buyer or seller here can ask for literally anything they want (strictly speaking in-game items here, friendly reminder that we do not allow real money transactions) and it's 100% fine. The market self regulates, and if I want 2 Jah runes for my Cathan's ring nobody is going to take that trade.
Props to OP for this writeup. I like it, and it's a good reference for people. The onus is 100% on people who trade to know the value of their item and judge for themselves what they're getting into.
KrassusD2 wrote: 3 years ago
the value of something is whatever the seller and the buyer agree it is, at a certain point in time, based on their needs and wants. some people just want to enjoy the game, and not turn into stock brokers while doing so.
if anything, such guides make trading harder on people. they must no longer think "i have rune x, I really need item x to complete my gear", now they have to think "but can you add 12 ists to make it fair?"
in the real world, a bottle of water costs 10 cents to produce, 1 dollar at the supermarket, 2 dollars at the pub, and 3 dollars in the Club.
are you getting scammed or ripped off every time you buy a water at the Club? you might be tempted to think that you pay for the difference because of the service, the Club's operating costs and so on, and you would be right, bbut the Club still makes a profit because you need a bottle of water at that specific point in time and you are willing to pay 3 bucks for it.
you're not getting scammed. you're gettin exactly what you want, and you don't give it a second thought, you are happy and content.
whomever reads this guide after doing a trade they have been happy with, and sees that they sold their item for less than someone somewhere says it is worth, will have their enjoyment diminished.
Agree and disagree. Any trades based on the mutual agreement are technically not a scam. Which is why I did not call any trade a scam, I question the nature of some of the trade, and think they are predatory, but you are right they are not scams.
I only mentioned the drop rune scam here because from my experience (and several others) when you act like a new player on the forum (like offering to trade an HR for next to nothing) good chance you'll be targeted by those scammers too.
Not sure how much to talk to when trading HRs with less experienced players. I do, like a lot. Fun people in all walks of life, but they just don't know the game very well. They tell me it's both exciting and stressful - they know they had a maybe once in a lifetime find (as they haven't been farming hours per day and getting a Ber is pure luck) and they are not sure if they are getting a fair trade, because honestly a lot of offers here are designed to look worth much but in reality just crap. I'm not saying such offers are always with malicious intent but at the end of the day, they are not fair.
Will this guide ruin their day if they have been content with the trade? Possibly. Ignorance is bliss. But is knowing what actually ruined their joy? You know if you traded a Ber for say a Shako package, many of them will eventually find out with regret with or without any guide, right? What if the community somehow give them the knowledge before the trade happens, or at least before the next?
That is my point of this guide.
Oh by the way. a Club sells a bottle of water for a premium because after all with the extra profit they did give you something tangible: the fanciness of the setting, exclusiveness, maybe an opportunity to meet a business partner. I don't see anything like that offered by the rune traders here: did they gave their VIP client a chauffeur service to their stash with a hot towel? If not the comparison isn't really applicable.
bemelle87 wrote: 3 years agoSur itself values 1ist less than Lo. in past several weeks
2Lo=Ber (still going this way)
1Lo=Sur+Ist (go up to Gul during weekend)
but other than that, great guide
With Lo = Sur + Ist, Ber = 2 Lo makes no sense at all.
The rune exchanges in here are getting ridiculous and I'm actually starting to call out any trade that tries to rip off players.
Many rune exchange rates happening right now contradict with some past old D2 ladder, right now I'd they it's because the economy is still relatively new and the supply and demand are heavily biased in favour of certain runewords.
Which is why there is a disclaimer and no one should trust these numbers 3 months from now lol (unless someone updates them)
IMO Lo is overvalued right now, and Cham and Zod are being significantly undervalued, but it's just the way things go, and I don't have a problem with it.
What's ridiculous is people trading Ohm + Shako for a Lo, or Lo + some mediocre item for a Ber...
Morphin wrote: 3 years ago
Oh by the way. a Club sells a bottle of water for a premium because after all with the extra profit they did give you something tangible
a few things.
first, a Shako for a Ber was considered a fair trade by any standards for quite some time when the game came out. So where many other items. Why? Because people needed MF, and they considered it an investment..
Same goes for new players. Say I just joined the game, farmed for a few days. I got some items, a Ber rune, I am missing a Shako.My enjoyment from the game is to log in after work for a few hours, and see what I can find. It reminds me of 20 years ago when I was a kid, and I am not interested all that much in the social aspect, I just wanna slaughter demons.
I decide to make a game called O Ber N Shako, I get my Shako and then I am back to my farming and my enjoyment.
How exxactly did I get an unfair trade? My needs, such as they were, have been met, and I can carry on with my ambitions. How is it that you don't find it condescending that other people get to tell me what something is worth or isn't worth? Why do you think it's fine to listen to homever else when it comes to my own needs and wants and how to fulfill them?
Now, back to the Club example. In our lives, we pay for many things far more than they are worth, and in the process, other people make money. They may offer you something to make the deal sweeter, but make no mistake, they make money. Some will offer you more for your 3 bucks a bottle, some will offer you less. End of the day, you were thirsty, because if you weren't, you wouldn't have gotten the water. So a need of yours was met.
Imagine a situation where someone needs a Lo. They wanna make a Grief 40. It's not their first try, they made 3 Griefs before, and they decided to roll the dice again. They agree to trade a Ber for a Lo. from your guide, an unfair trade. They make the Grief, the Grief rolls 40. Finally, they are happy. Their goal was achieved.
What is the value if telling them that a Ber is worth 2 Lo's? To simply ruin their happiness?
My point is this: any value we attribute to anything is subjective. A guide such as this is like saying a bottle of water should cost 1 dollar +/- 15%. That's not how it works, and not how it should work. It may work like this in economies that are not free, but prices in this game are only regulated by the market itself, supply and demand, which are 2 subjective things as well. What you are trying to describe here are evolving market trends, which even if they are true, can only be true for a certain point in time.
Furthermore, players may remember a time when a HR was worth a HR. It did not matter what HR it was. That was the currency. Were we all fools for paying in Bers and Jahs and Los and Surs for Shakos? Not in the slightest.
A more interesting discussion would be, how have we arrived to such prices? Why is there a tendency to value things like this? There are 2 factors to consider. First, there seem to be no bots, and if there are, at least they are not flooding the market as before.
Secondly, 20 years ago or even 15 years ago, people played what they liked, not what some random streamer told them they should play. As such, the game was far more diversified. Yes there were many sorcs and many hammerdins, but not like today, so you could see other items being move valuable and the meta ones being less valuable. I wonder however, how many people actually WANT to play a sorc or a pally? How many actually enjoy those classes? I would wager far less than the people actually playing them. And even a smaller number of those actually enjoy this kind of convoluted trading.
@KrassusD2 I love your perspective. As it goes, things are always worth what others are willing to spend for them.
It doesn't hurt to provide a framework for relative value, though on the other hand it doesn't pay to forget that this is a barter economy.
In my opinion the best (feeling) trades are where both parties come out believing they have the better deal, and that most often happens when they are consulting their hearts and not their charts
Morphin wrote: 3 years ago
Oh by the way. a Club sells a bottle of water for a premium because after all with the extra profit they did give you something tangible
a few things.
first, a Shako for a Ber was considered a fair trade by any standards for quite some time when the game came out. So where many other items. Why? Because people needed MF, and they considered it an investment..
Same goes for new players. Say I just joined the game, farmed for a few days. I got some items, a Ber rune, I am missing a Shako.My enjoyment from the game is to log in after work for a few hours, and see what I can find. It reminds me of 20 years ago when I was a kid, and I am not interested all that much in the social aspect, I just wanna slaughter demons.
I decide to make a game called O Ber N Shako, I get my Shako and then I am back to my farming and my enjoyment.
How exxactly did I get an unfair trade? My needs, such as they were, have been met, and I can carry on with my ambitions. How is it that you don't find it condescending that other people get to tell me what something is worth or isn't worth? Why do you think it's fine to listen to homever else when it comes to my own needs and wants and how to fulfill them?
Now, back to the Club example. In our lives, we pay for many things far more than they are worth, and in the process, other people make money. They may offer you something to make the deal sweeter, but make no mistake, they make money. Some will offer you more for your 3 bucks a bottle, some will offer you less. End of the day, you were thirsty, because if you weren't, you wouldn't have gotten the water. So a need of yours was met.
Imagine a situation where someone needs a Lo. They wanna make a Grief 40. It's not their first try, they made 3 Griefs before, and they decided to roll the dice again. They agree to trade a Ber for a Lo. from your guide, an unfair trade. They make the Grief, the Grief rolls 40. Finally, they are happy. Their goal was achieved.
What is the value if telling them that a Ber is worth 2 Lo's? To simply ruin their happiness?
My point is this: any value we attribute to anything is subjective. A guide such as this is like saying a bottle of water should cost 1 dollar +/- 15%. That's not how it works, and not how it should work. It may work like this in economies that are not free, but prices in this game are only regulated by the market itself, supply and demand, which are 2 subjective things as well. What you are trying to describe here are evolving market trends, which even if they are true, can only be true for a certain point in time.
Furthermore, players may remember a time when a HR was worth a HR. It did not matter what HR it was. That was the currency. Were we all fools for paying in Bers and Jahs and Los and Surs for Shakos? Not in the slightest.
A more interesting discussion would be, how have we arrived to such prices? Why is there a tendency to value things like this? There are 2 factors to consider. First, there seem to be no bots, and if there are, at least they are not flooding the market as before.
Secondly, 20 years ago or even 15 years ago, people played what they liked, not what some random streamer told them they should play. As such, the game was far more diversified. Yes there were many sorcs and many hammerdins, but not like today, so you could see other items being move valuable and the meta ones being less valuable. I wonder however, how many people actually WANT to play a sorc or a pally? How many actually enjoy those classes? I would wager far less than the people actually playing them. And even a smaller number of those actually enjoy this kind of convoluted trading.
Again, a guide is a guide, we shouldn't dictate. I am also against hand-holding people by telling them this is how much something MUST be traded with. But I guess a helpful community will always aid (new) players make some informed choices, as there are people who are asking for this information, and eventually, someone always writes something up in places like d2jsp in the old days.
Want to trade a Ber for Shako or The Occy? Sure. Might even be fair on the first day of the game, but if you price check, you can easily derive that there a Ber can get you more than a dozen of Shako these days and there is literally a Shako popping up trade every 10 minutes. Still don't care and I just want the Shako NOW? No problem go ahead, just as long as you have the figures in your head, you'll walk out of the trade with no regret. Doing the trade without knowing, and finding out later, the bitterness of feeling tricked will be there.
As for the free market, as long as there isn't a mandate of prices the market IS free. At the end of the day, you can go and create as many N Ber O Shako games as you want and no one can get you reported and banned. This guide is about transparency, and taking some stress off someone who is new and *wants* this information and doesn't know where to look. Then you are also free to contradict with a "what does that guy know about the market?" and insist on what you want, and when you are patient enough you will.
Enjoy convoluted trading? Sure, you can always choose to ignore the price checks and guides and just create trade rooms in-game, right?
KrassusD2 wrote: 3 years ago
Secondly, 20 years ago or even 15 years ago, people played what they liked, not what some random streamer told them they should play. As such, the game was far more diversified. Yes there were many sorcs and many hammerdins, but not like today, so you could see other items being move valuable and the meta ones being less valuable. I wonder however, how many people actually WANT to play a sorc or a pally? How many actually enjoy those classes? I would wager far less than the people actually playing them. And even a smaller number of those actually enjoy this kind of convoluted trading.
Yeah I do get that. I guess it's a price to pay when Blizz isn't making something new and a lot of us playing D2R are just returning players.
20 years ago we didn't know what's the most efficient way to beat the game, that's when the fun of all the diversified explorations was. Unfortunately, D2 isn't a game that is well balanced, and ladder after ladder, over the years we found out a Pattern of getting started efficiently and you just can't unlearn that. Not sure if you played WoW, but that's exactly the same thing that happened on the Classic servers. Remasters are short-lived, and despite this hype we are having right now, D2R will be no different.
Different topic, but prolonging a game's fun by pretending not knowing something we already know is going to be futile.
As for the rune prices, I know how it was like when an HR could just trade for another HR. I mean, why would a Zod be worth less than a Ber, isn't it the rarest item in the game? Happy days, but it was happy days because nobody wasn't taking advantage of others and there was a genuine consensus. Not anymore. D2R's economy is deeply tied to real money trade and has started with a certain level of toxicity since day one. Not just the economy, the overall server performance too...
Morphin wrote: 3 years ago
Oh by the way. a Club sells a bottle of water for a premium because after all with the extra profit they did give you something tangible
Enjoy convoluted trading? Sure, you can always choose to ignore the price checks and guides and just create trade rooms in-game, right?
ok, but let me ask you this : how did you come about these figures? What is the scientific process and reasoning in saying "a Ber = 2 x Lo" ?
has someone calculated the nr of uses of the Lo rune vs the number of uses of the Ber rune, taking into account their drop rate, taking into account the drop rates of the Sur and Ohm runes and of the nr of uses for Sur and Ohm runes, and have they arrived at the conclusion that a Ber is 2 x Lo? Without this, we can just as easily agree that a Ber is worth a Vex and that a Vex is worth a Lo, it's just a matter of spreading the word and having the majority of players agree to your opinion.
As it stands now, this guide is a reflection of current trends, driven by herd mentality " i saw a 30 instances of a Ber go for 2 Lo so it must be worth 2 Lo"
It is strictly an opinion, and it may be the opinion shared by the majority, it may be helpful for people who are willing to go with the tide, but it is not helpful to the enjoyment of the game. Instead of killing demons, people now need to spend more and more time trading, trying to get a "fair" value, trying to one up one another, time which could be spent actually playing the game they love.
while I agree with the sentiment behind the guide and with helping new players, I do not think that driving them towards a series of values that fluctuate sometimes even daily is the way to go. If a new player finds a Ber rune, it is not necessarily to his advantage to get as much gear as possible for that Ber rune. It may be to his advantage to hold on to it, or make a specific runeword, it may be to his advantage to give it to one of his friends, it may be to his advantage to struggle through the game with less gear and have a more gradual progression towards his goals, which in turn might make him enjoy his journey more.
the point is, people are different and require different things. Such guides are a way of steering them towards a certain mentality, even if that is not the intention.
Morphin wrote: 3 years ago
Different topic, but prolonging a game's fun by pretending not knowing something we already know is going to be futile.
you don't need to pretend, but you can have fun without playing the meta. the game is so much more than that. it's not just about being efficient and getting a good deal, it can be about the struggle, whether alone or with friends, it can bbe about the enjoyment of drops, it can be about making new friends and completing challenges together.
after 20 years or so, would you not say it's kinda stale to start with a sorc and get GG gear in the first few days? Even if someone is the type of player that likes to show off his early ladder gains, after so much time, can that bring any kind of excitement anymore?
Morphin wrote: 3 years ago
Oh by the way. a Club sells a bottle of water for a premium because after all with the extra profit they did give you something tangible
Enjoy convoluted trading? Sure, you can always choose to ignore the price checks and guides and just create trade rooms in-game, right?
ok, but let me ask you this : how did you come about these figures? What is the scientific process and reasoning in saying "a Ber = 2 x Lo" ?
has someone calculated the nr of uses of the Lo rune vs the number of uses of the Ber rune, taking into account their drop rate, taking into account the drop rates of the Sur and Ohm runes and of the nr of uses for Sur and Ohm runes, and have they arrived at the conclusion that a Ber is 2 x Lo? Without this, we can just as easily agree that a Ber is worth a Vex and that a Vex is worth a Lo, it's just a matter of spreading the word and having the majority of players agree to your opinion.
As it stands now, this guide is a reflection of current trends, driven by herd mentality " i saw a 30 instances of a Ber go for 2 Lo so it must be worth 2 Lo"
It is strictly an opinion, and it may be the opinion shared by the majority, it may be helpful for people who are willing to go with the tide, but it is not helpful to the enjoyment of the game. Instead of killing demons, people now need to spend more and more time trading, trying to get a "fair" value, trying to one up one another, time which could be spent actually playing the game they love.
while I agree with the sentiment behind the guide and with helping new players, I do not think that driving them towards a series of values that fluctuate sometimes even daily is the way to go. If a new player finds a Ber rune, it is not necessarily to his advantage to get as much gear as possible for that Ber rune. It may be to his advantage to hold on to it, or make a specific runeword, it may be to his advantage to give it to one of his friends, it may be to his advantage to struggle through the game with less gear and have a more gradual progression towards his goals, which in turn might make him enjoy his journey more.
the point is, people are different and require different things. Such guides are a way of steering them towards a certain mentality, even if that is not the intention.
My point here is that the effect of an opinionated (yes totally agree) price guide on a player's mentality could be overstated. It's not that I am a high-profile streamer or something, people's source of information is also highly diversified compared to 20 years ago.
The ones who don't care about rune prices will be always out there. How many of the D2R players still read forums these days? Out of those who actually read guides, or care? I'd say they are not a majority. And for the people who want a compiled observation to save them from the headaches, this is for them.
Morphin wrote: 3 years ago
Oh by the way. a Club sells a bottle of water for a premium because after all with the extra profit they did give you something tangible
Enjoy convoluted trading? Sure, you can always choose to ignore the price checks and guides and just create trade rooms in-game, right?
ok, but let me ask you this : how did you come about these figures? What is the scientific process and reasoning in saying "a Ber = 2 x Lo" ?
has someone calculated the nr of uses of the Lo rune vs the number of uses of the Ber rune, taking into account their drop rate, taking into account the drop rates of the Sur and Ohm runes and of the nr of uses for Sur and Ohm runes, and have they arrived at the conclusion that a Ber is 2 x Lo? Without this, we can just as easily agree that a Ber is worth a Vex and that a Vex is worth a Lo, it's just a matter of spreading the word and having the majority of players agree to your opinion.
As it stands now, this guide is a reflection of current trends, driven by herd mentality " i saw a 30 instances of a Ber go for 2 Lo so it must be worth 2 Lo"
It is strictly an opinion, and it may be the opinion shared by the majority, it may be helpful for people who are willing to go with the tide, but it is not helpful to the enjoyment of the game. Instead of killing demons, people now need to spend more and more time trading, trying to get a "fair" value, trying to one up one another, time which could be spent actually playing the game they love.
while I agree with the sentiment behind the guide and with helping new players, I do not think that driving them towards a series of values that fluctuate sometimes even daily is the way to go. If a new player finds a Ber rune, it is not necessarily to his advantage to get as much gear as possible for that Ber rune. It may be to his advantage to hold on to it, or make a specific runeword, it may be to his advantage to give it to one of his friends, it may be to his advantage to struggle through the game with less gear and have a more gradual progression towards his goals, which in turn might make him enjoy his journey more.
the point is, people are different and require different things. Such guides are a way of steering them towards a certain mentality, even if that is not the intention.
Also trading IS part of the fun of this game, I don't think it is mutually exclusive to enjoy the game you love. D2/D2R has abysmal in-game social features, most interaction you make with other players has always been in your clans or on trading forums, and most recently on Discord. The thing is that the ones who you end up doing runs happily together (outside your existing circle) tend to be the ones who gave you a fair trade, not the profiteers...
Had D2R in-game trading been a business, I'd say a deal is a deal and there is no type of trades we should be particularly fond of. Well it's not a really business (or is it?)
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