Do you like easy game or struggling?

RackAnewShoe wrote: 23 hours ago

One of the things I would like to see D2R add is an endgame high-density region. Not another grind for keys to cube other keys to get access. Just an area available after Baal than sends absolute hordes of enemies to churn through. It would start with Act 1 monsters and work it's way up through the game until facing a mass of monsters from the whole game and it's really just a matter of seeing how long you survive. No super item at completion. Just doing the area is the reward.

I think I'd prefer not to see greater rifts in D2R.

departure wrote: 23 hours ago

I would suggest that you consider Mr. Llama's take on offline, as he almost exclusively plays offline and recommends it highly.

He's one of the biggest streamer/video publisher on the game. I'm a casual player with a job and a family. Of course, he's long finished the things I'm still trying to finish (like having lvl99, Holy Grail etc) and is looking for bigger challenges, more entertaining for him and his audience. Which, as I said, offline mode is great for.
I watched Mr. Llama for a time, maybe I even watched the video you're referencing. His Conviction level just wasn't high enough for me.

departure wrote: 23 hours ago

Like I said, online is fantastic. Offline is also fantastic. Pretending that one of them sucks is losing half of what D2 has to offer

I don't think it works like that. If I'm not in the target audience for that part, it's not a loss if I ignore it.
I'm not even trying to say that offline mode is universally bad or something like that. It's just that every time I see an attempt to explain how offline is supposedly better than online, I'm getting genuinely stumped. “You can't trade in a game where droprates are designed around trade.” Huh? It just sounds absurd when I read it. And it's not even an exclusive feature of the mode: you can choose not to trade online as well, if you want the challenge. “You can manipulate stuff to make mind-numbing farm, required to overcome the absence of trade (for which droprates were designed), easier.” Gee, thanks.
I can understand that some people are bored of the base game and want flexibility, guess I myself just not there yet.

Altera wrote: 22 hours ago

I don't think it works like that. If I'm not in the target audience for that part, it's not a loss if I ignore it.

Ok sure. If you don't like it you don't like it and there's nothing lost for you personally. But for a lot of us it is genuinely amazing and for me personally offline is at least 50% of the experience it has to offer. You don't have to like all of D2, you don't have to like D2 at all in fact. I'm just here to say that you're missing out on something that I personally find to be one of if not THE greatest games ever built. Yes you can access it online, but offline is a very different experience.

Altera wrote: 22 hours ago

I'm getting genuinely stumped. “You can't trade in a game where droprates are designed around trade.” Huh? It just sounds absurd when I read it.

That's what players X and re-used maps is all about. I don't think that offline is actually just poorly designed from a drop rate perspective. I find the drop rates offline to be excellent. Assuming that they didn't build the game for offline mode is not warranted. They did, and it works great.

Altera wrote: 22 hours ago

And it's not even an exclusive feature of the mode: you can choose not to trade online as well, if you want the challenge. “You can manipulate stuff to make mind-numbing farm, required to overcome the absence of trade (for which droprates were designed), easier.” Gee, thanks.

No, you can't really make online the same as offline - mostly because you can't control the player count. But also because the maps are not re-used. You're actually just coming off as not really understanding how the offline game works.

Altera wrote: 22 hours ago

I can understand that some people are bored of the base game and want flexibility, guess I myself just not there yet.

I really don't think it's fair to say that this is born from boredom of the base game. In fact, if I were going to call something the base game, I'd call offline the base game. I don't think offline offers more flexibility (unless you customize items in). I think offline actually offers a lot LESS flexibility in terms of items in that you have to find literally everything you use. The only place where it adds flexibility is in controlling the player count and customizing the map (through re-rolling of the map). And those are absolutely fantastic features compared to the online experience.

Offline you can gear a character for P8 content and then actually play that P8 content on demand. It's quite nice.

departure wrote: 21 hours ago

That's what players X and re-used maps is all about. I don't think that offline is actually just poorly designed from a drop rate perspective.

“players X” was always a crutch, IIRC. It wasn't intended originally as a difficulty setting, only D2R made it semi-official. Map manipulation is, well, manipulation. I'd understand “never persisting maps” for MP and “always persisting maps” for SP, the fact that you can reroll maps in SP by switching difficulty and then use them as persistent feels like an oversight more than a feature.
Droprates in offline mode were ported from LoD, which didn't have an offline mode: your local characters could be also played in MP via TCP/IP or Open B.net, so the trade was always a possibility there. Doing nothing except cutting off TCP/IP is not a “design tailored to offline mode”, IMO.

departure wrote: 21 hours ago

No, you can't really make online the same as offline - mostly because you can't control the player count. But also because the maps are not re-used. You're actually just coming off as not really understanding how the offline game works.

Why are you suddenly lumping everything about offline against what I said about trading specifically? You're not even correct: split-farming exists in the online lobby, and a bunch of good maps are either fixed (e.g. CS, Trav, Cow level) or can be bypassed most of the time by map reading tricks (e.g. Durance level 2, Tower).
I understand how the offline mode works. I don't understand what's so great about its quirks (except modding).

Altera wrote: 19 hours ago

“players X” was always a crutch, IIRC. It wasn't intended originally as a difficulty setting, only D2R made it semi-official.

Wiki says it was introduced (officially) in 2001. With 1.09.

Altera wrote: 19 hours ago

Map manipulation is, well, manipulation. I'd understand “never persisting maps” for MP and “always persisting maps” for SP, the fact that you can reroll maps in SP by switching difficulty and then use them as persistent feels like an oversight more than a feature.

No idea why you'd think that.

Altera wrote: 19 hours ago

Droprates in offline mode were ported from LoD, which didn't have an offline mode: your local characters could be also played in MP via TCP/IP or Open B.net, so the trade was always a possibility there. Doing nothing except cutting off TCP/IP is not a “design tailored to offline mode”, IMO.

Didn't have an offline mode because of TCP/IP. Wow. That's a take.

D2 has always had an offline mode, and was built around the idea of single player being a way to play (continuing from diablo 1). The existence of the ability to hook your computer up in a LAN party and play D2 with friends (which I did do way back then), is not what drop rates were built around.

This seems like a bad Faith argument.

Altera wrote: 19 hours ago

Why are you suddenly lumping everything about offline against what I said about trading specifically?

...because you were saying you could make online act like offline? Again, this feels like a bad Faith argument.

Altera wrote: 19 hours ago

You're not even correct: split-farming exists in the online lobby, and a bunch of good maps are either fixed (e.g. CS, Trav, Cow level) or can be bypassed most of the time by map reading tricks (e.g. Durance level 2, Tower).

Yes, you can read maps and it speeds you up. And you can farm trav or cows relatively quickly (though it is still faster offline to do cows, especially at higher player counts). Split farming is really hit or miss online. I've done plenty of it, sometimes it works out. If you're wanting to farm a specific section of the game, not really.

Altera wrote: 19 hours ago

I understand how the offline mode works. I don't understand what's so great about its quirks (except modding).

It brings super rare drops a bit more back in line. You can't stack up 45 life skillers because you can't find that many... not in 30 years. It really makes you contend with what's actually rare as opposed to what's valuable. A Ber drop does not really affect me offline, whereas I could buy plenty of the things I was looking for with it if I was online. You have to be more purposeful with the game, which is fun in its own way. It rewards you by letting you play a more heavily geared character directly with P8 content wherever you want on a map that you've already scouted - streamlining farming.

I dunno what to tell you. You're obviously dead set on not being convinced. But an offline skiller with life, that just hits different. I've done plenty of online, switching to offline was like rediscovering the game.

departure wrote: 19 hours ago

D2 has always had an offline mode, and was built around the idea of single player being a way to play (continuing from diablo 1). The existence of the ability to hook your computer up in a LAN party and play D2 with friends (which I did do way back then), is not what drop rates were built around.

SP being “the way to play” is a separate aspect of why the drops are the way they are. For replayability purposes, game gives just enough stuff to let you finish the campaign and get you interested in trying out other characters, since you're likely to get items for other classes/builds.
For endgame, where you can't disperse your time on 50 characters and focus only on select few, that scheme absolutely cannot work if left as is. But devs left it as is, because no one was forced into SSF and always had an option to play and trade with other people. This is what I mean by “designed around trade”.
If you want an example of drop system not designed around trade, but around SSF instead, there's D3: RoS. While doing the campaign, you get some jank, occasional legendaries, pretty similar to how the typical D2 campaign run looks. After you reach max level and start ramping up Torments, drops change drastically. Endgame items Rain from the sky, 95% or so of them are specifically for your class, absolutely perfect items start appearing with odds in order of 1 in thousands (not 1 in trillions as it's in D2 with items like Tomb Reaver). I'm not saying it was a good system, I'm just showing my reference point for “not designed around trade”.

departure wrote: 19 hours ago

You can't stack up 45 life skillers

I can't stack them on my online characters either. What do you think they cost, Ist a piece?
I've found only one 45L skiller in my whole D2 career, and it was Shadow Disciplines. In my case, some Ghost Assassin happily gave me 10 Ber for it (I don't even know what was the proper price for those at that moment). Now imagine you've found that offline, what would you even do with it? Wouldn't it feel like the game is taunting you by wasting your luck on item no SP character would seriously use?

departure wrote: 19 hours ago

You have to be more purposeful with the game

Meaning, I have to forgo any build experimentation and be content with whatever game allows me to play. Not an exciting prospect for me right now.

antistygian wrote: 18 hours ago

End game gets pretty easy with decent gear and the disipline to folllow a build guide, but occational monster gets to slaughter entire groups of parties adventuring inside wsk, wish there was more areas like that, perhaps torment difficulties after hell for more challange and fun for well geared and skilled players would not be a bad ideer!

I would love another difficulty or just really difficult area.

Altera wrote: 15 hours ago

SP being “the way to play” is a separate aspect of why the drops are the way they are. For replayability purposes, game gives just enough stuff to let you finish the campaign and get you interested in trying out other characters, since you're likely to get items for other classes/builds.
For endgame, where you can't disperse your time on 50 characters and focus only on select few, that scheme absolutely cannot work if left as is. But devs left it as is, because no one was forced into SSF and always had an option to play and trade with other people. This is what I mean by “designed around trade”.

Definitely the open drop concept of the game entices you to try other characters. But honestly to really do endgame, you actually WANT specialists that need other kinds of gear. Like a smiter, for example.

Altera wrote: 15 hours ago

If you want an example of drop system not designed around trade, but around SSF instead, there's D3: RoS.

I have played and do own that game, and I think D2 SP is vastly superior to it. I have a choice every time I start playing, I could start up D3: RoS, or I could start D2R (or many other kinds of games), and I choose D2 SP every time, and it's not because the drop system sucks and makes me miserable.

Altera wrote: 15 hours ago

I can't stack them on my online characters either. What do you think they cost, Ist a piece?

I did. You can buy suuuuper rare items online for comparatively little (I'm not talking real money, although that is a thing too). You can buy super rare items for what you trade for common items like gems or low runes. So power creep is more of a thing online, as all of the drops find their way into specialized characters. There are just items that will never exist for you in SP that are relatively cheap online and offer more power.

Altera wrote: 15 hours ago

Now imagine you've found that offline, what would you even do with it? Wouldn't it feel like the game is taunting you by wasting your luck on item no SP character would seriously use?

I have found plenty of big life skillers for skills I don't use. And some of them do gather dust in a computer file. I don't see it as wasting my luck, since it's not actually lucky to roll those charms, and it's actually necessary to find a bunch of charms you won't use before you find the ones you want. So actually I just think it's a cool item that I don't use. Kinda like finding a Tyrael's Might. It's a cool item I don't use.

Altera wrote: 15 hours ago

Meaning, I have to forgo any build experimentation and be content with whatever game allows me to play. Not an exciting prospect for me right now.

No, that's really not what I meant. I meant that you can't just farm cows for jahs and call it a day. You really need to figure out where the items you need are going to drop and farm it intentionally.