"Perfect" Item Ads

Long story short.. I'm a collector and semi new to the site, but there seems to be an awful lot of people posting their items as perfect when they simply aren't. Does anyone feel my pain as well?

yes, i do.
Last one was yesterday:
a "perfect" horazon hold.
146/14/32

Tagged as perfect with 0 / 3 perfect rolls.
and he had still argued against it.
Yes, unfortunately, that's quite common.

its missing a "near perfect" option
got a near perfect

Horazon's Hold for sale
didn't marked it as perfect as it's missing some attack rating (but def is also max)
but I did hesitate

Absolutely feel you.

"Perfect" as a word is absolute.
"Perfect" means, each and every stat that does not have a fix value but a range from x to y NEEDS to be at it's maximum to be legaly called "Perfect".

Take the Barbhelm "

Wolfhowl" as an example. Including the Defense stat "

Wolfhowl" has 9 variable stats.
Even if 8 of the STATS are perfectly rolled, the ITEM in it's whole is not perfect if, say, the Defense is 376 instead of the maximum 377.
Is it a godly rolled item? YES! Absolutely so, but is it "Perfect"?
No !!!
Period!!!

And thus, every trader, who proclaims his items as "Perfect roll" when in fact every variable stat is NOT on max - well at least in my book he is a cheater, because he/she presents false facts (or "alternative" facts, as Trump's speaker Karoline Leavitt might put it... just to draw your attention, kind of like click bait.
I end my rant with the plea to those who did this in the past to stop cheating on the potential costumers and henceforth only call items "Perfect", when they truly are.
Thanks in advance...

wulfen777 wrote: 3 hours ago

Absolutely feel you.

"Perfect" as a word is absolute.
"Perfect" means, each and every stat that does not have a fix value but a range from x to y NEEDS to be at it's maximum to be legaly called "Perfect".

Take the Barbhelm "

Wolfhowl" as an example. Including the Defense stat "

Wolfhowl" has 9 variable stats.
Even if 8 of the STATS are perfectly rolled, the item in it's whole is not perfect if, say, the Defense is 376 instead of the maximum 377.
Is it a godly rolled item? YES! Absolutely so, but is it "Perfect"?
No !!!
Period!!!

And thus, every trader, who proclaims his items as "Perfect roll" when in fact every variable stat is NOT on max - well at least in my book he is a cheater, because he/she presents false facts (or "alternative" facts, as Trump's speaker Karoline Leavitt might put it...

wrong
a griffon if it's 20-15 then it is perfect
it doesn't need to have max possible deff to be perfect.
same for each and every other unique item that relies on defense, only with few exceptions.
if you roll a cta as 6/6/4 you will post it as perfect regardless of damage, and so on.
stop chatting nonsense.

Pitach wrote: 3 hours ago

wrong
a griffon if it's 20-15 then it is perfect
it doesn't need to have max possible deff to be perfect.
same for each and every other unique item that relies on defense, only with few exceptions.
if you roll a cta as 6/6/4 you will post it as perfect regardless of damage, and so on.
stop chatting nonsense.

That might be YOUR take on this matter.
I would argue from a standpoint of a collector (yes, they exist) to whom it might not only matter what is useful for a build where Defense might not be the most important stat, I'll give you that.
But technically Defense is a variable stat on an item like

Griffon's Eye, just like -20 to Enemy Lightning Res is.

Yes, for most people a Griffon's with -20 / +15 might fall under the category "Perfect" as it suits their needs in the build they aim for.
But for all people? I don't think so.
In particular the Diablo 2 community is known to be home of min/maxing people who go to great length to optimize their characters in every aspect, of which Defense is also one.

Collector’s life is hard nowdays

wulfen777 wrote: 3 hours ago

Pitach wrote: 3 hours ago

wrong
a griffon if it's 20-15 then it is perfect
it doesn't need to have max possible deff to be perfect.
same for each and every other unique item that relies on defense, only with few exceptions.
if you roll a cta as 6/6/4 you will post it as perfect regardless of damage, and so on.
stop chatting nonsense.

That might be YOUR take on this matter.
I would argue from a standpoint of a collector (yes, they exist) to whom it might not only matter what is useful for a build where Defense might not be the most important stat, I'll give you that.
But technically Defense is a variable stat on an item like

Griffon's Eye, just like -20 to Enemy Lightning Res is.

Yes, for most people a Griffon's with -20 / +15 might fall under the category "Perfect" as it suits their needs in the build they aim for.
But for all people? I don't think so.
In particular the Diablo 2 community is known to be home of min/maxing people who go to great length to optimize their characters in every aspect, of which Defense is also one.

That's a nice touch.
I bet the items you collect are basic non value all stats perfect items.
People talk about perfect from trading point of view and not collectors point of view.
You speak for a very low percentage of players, not for the vast majority.
Also, I don't think you have an idea what you talking about perfect griffons on deff, it's value is above 60

Jah currently, not to talk about a perfect tyraels with deff resists and strength, a perfect Last Wish in perfect base with ar, or so on.
In my opinion you only seek attention, once again people talk from trading point of view not collectors point of view, otherwise nobody would be selling anything.
Show me you have a single item worth over 40-50

Jah, or show me that you have 200-300

Jah cash, then you gain my respect otherwise you just seek attention

This has already been brought up and discussed many times in the past.
For example:
forums/on-the-perfect-roll-tag-t958234.html
feedback/close-to-perfect-roll-button-t1106171.html
feedback/near-perfect-tag-suggestion-t1567366.html

The perfect tag is deliberately intended to be used for near-perfect situations - because Teebling didn’t want moderators to have to deal with policing it. If you look at the tooltip for the ‘Perfect’ tag it is explained.
To quote Teebling on his stance on the matter (from one of the linked threads):

Teebling wrote: 3 years ago

Was just letting this discussion run its course before I chimed in.

I anticipated people abusing the perfect filter, so decided to leave it slightly ambiguous by defining it as 'perfect or near perfect'. In this way, people don't get overly upset when it is used liberally, or when the 'perfectness' of the item is in dispute/difficult to determine absolutely.

It's not an ideal solution of course, but without a means of forcefully and accurately verifying each item listed, and having a strict code by which each item is deemed 'perfect' (as others have noted), there's no way to stop people from using it however they like.

Right now I don't intend to change it. Why? Because to this date, despite some of the great suggestions in this thread, has drawn up a strategy that is 1. totally effective and 2. reasonable for me to code/manage.

Look - you both agree that some people misuse the tag, but you can’t even agree on what the perfect tag actually means. That’s exactly why Teebling left it ambiguous. Is the solution itself perfect? No, but there exists no solution (except removing the tag altogether) which wouldn’t be a moderation headache because the site cannot automatically evaluate what constitutes perfect or near-perfect, it would have to be verified manually. It’s even more complicated for rune words - are they perfect only if the base is perfect? What is a perfect base even?

This topic will always be a bit controversial because there are many different opinions on what ‘Perfect’ means, and everyone seems to be willing to die on their particular hill of choice.

wulfen777 wrote: 3 hours ago

Absolutely feel you.

"Perfect" as a word is absolute.
"Perfect" means, each and every stat that does not have a fix value but a range from x to y NEEDS to be at it's maximum to be legaly called "Perfect".

Take the Barbhelm "

Wolfhowl" as an example. Including the Defense stat "

Wolfhowl" has 9 variable stats.
Even if 8 of the STATS are perfectly rolled, the ITEM in it's whole is not perfect if, say, the Defense is 376 instead of the maximum 377.
Is it a godly rolled item? YES! Absolutely so, but is it "Perfect"?
No !!!
Period!!!

And thus, every trader, who proclaims his items as "Perfect roll" when in fact every variable stat is NOT on max - well at least in my book he is a cheater, because he/she presents false facts (or "alternative" facts, as Trump's speaker Karoline Leavitt might put it... just to draw your attention, kind of like click bait.
I end my rant with the plea to those who did this in the past to stop cheating on the potential costumers and henceforth only call items "Perfect", when they truly are.
Thanks in advance...

Since you are talking about the term of perfect from collector's point of view, I want to point out that the

Wolfhowl seems only have 8 variable status. Mabye you count the changing defense and changing enhanced defense are 2 different things? I think they are a same thing from 2 perspective. The base (

Fury Visor) def value is from 105-150, but

Wolfhowl has enhanced def which put the base def value to be 150, then calculates the max enhanced def is (150+1) x (100%+150%) = 377.5, round it down to 377, PERFECT matches the shown value.
By the way, I agree with you on the definition of perfect.

[/quote]

Since you are talking about the term of perfect from collector's point of view, I want to point out that the

Wolfhowl seems only have 8 variable status. Mabye you count the changing defense and changing enhanced defense are 2 different things? I think they are a same thing from 2 perspective. The base (

Fury Visor) def value is from 105-150, but

Wolfhowl has enhanced def which put the base def value to be 150, then calculates the max enhanced def is (150+1) x (100%+150%) = 377.5, round it down to 377, PERFECT matches the shown value.
By the way, I agree with you on the definition of perfect.
[/quote]

Glad to have finally encountered someone else with this view of the Defence / enhanced defence property. Have been trying to explain this very point to people in game.. if one is higher, the other one is also going to be higher as a result.. claiming that they are two separate high rolls misses the point.

Long post so feel free to tldr it..

I see the moderators’ point of view here. It is hard to pin down what is perfect. For example, if an item is non- ethereal but otherwise perfect (for argument’s sake, let’s say an item that generates with a fixed defence stat) and its variable stats all roll the max, this should be a perfect item right? But then what to do with the ethereal item? The ethereal item will clearly have higher defence - does it mean that the non-ethereal item is not in fact perfect?

And what of superior mods to base items? Take weapons, is it perfect if it doesn’t roll with the +3 ar and 15ed, and 15 to max durability? What about sockets??

And what about the auto mods of base items such as staffs etc. Is an item perfect if it doesn’t roll with a +3 cold skills etc?

And if that ‘imperfect’ base item is used to achieve a perfect roll variable stats for a rune word, does that item not count as being perfect?

And then what of ‘upped items’? Take a viper with a roll of 35/13. At the basic level, the defence is static so all 35/13s are the same. This would surely be a perfect viper then right? But if you up the item in your cube, the upped stats can vary in the range of 200+ defence points. Does this mean you no longer have a perfect viper unless your upping rolled the max?

Then put together some of these permutations, is perfect a superior, automodded, ethereal, and upped item only?

I have no answers but do support the view that perfect is hard to define. Especially with newer items which have several variable rolls like the new sunders and jewels.. heck, most cant even agree what a 'good' version of those look like..

Aards.

Ps. I think a bigger issue is the overly casual use of the term GG for 95% of things which are not even good.. but I’m sure there will have been several threads about that issue already.

Linguistically, the definition of perfect is very easy. Perfect means the best possible rolls for the item. The item could not have rolled any better, 100% the best in every possible way. An adjective that is a superlative in its base form. So there is only perfect and not "more perfect" or "the most perfect".

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perfect

A 20-15 Griffons is only perfect if the defense is perfect, too.
99% perfect is not perfect, it is just almost perfect.
A desired stat might have the maximum roll, but this does not make the whole item perfect.
A base is only truly perfect if it has 15ed and 15 durablity.

I for one would completely abolish any "perfect" tag, as this is just bound to be misused. I would always ignore it since "almost perfect" is open to interpretation and does not say anything valid.

People can inform themselves about the possible rolls and then compare them with the actual items that are offered. If one buys an item because it says "p e r f e c t" in colourful letters, he can't be helped. The buyer should decide if an item is "perfect enough". No tags needed.

Perhaps we should have a ‘max rolls’ (nothing to do with the website that is a very helpful source of knowledge!) button which when clicked allows you to specify the number?

So if you have an item with 5 variable stats, and it rolls 4 max rolls, you can click to indicate 4 max rolls. That way you’re not claiming perfection but you are helping collectors traders buyers to quickly sort average rolled items from your item with some max rolls?

Just a thought.

Aards.

mikelessar wrote: 1 hour ago

I for one would completely abolish any "perfect" tag, as this is just bound to be misused. I would always ignore it since "almost perfect" is open to interpretation and does not say anything valid.

I would support this if the site had granular & searchable stats for listed items - but it doesn’t (not yet anyway). Searching for specific rolls is already hard (having to manually scan through search results and evaluate what the description means - and not everyone uses the same text format nor does everyone even list all rolls). At least the ‘Perfect’ tag offers some additional filtering, even if a lot of users don’t follow your own personal idea of what ‘Perfect’ means. I.e., it’s a compromise, at least for now.

AardvarksAdvance wrote: 1 hour ago

Perhaps we should have a ‘max rolls’ (nothing to do with the website that is a very helpful source of knowledge!) button which when clicked allows you to specify the number?

So if you have an item with 5 variable stats, and it rolls 4 max rolls, you can click to indicate 4 max rolls. That way you’re not claiming perfection but you are helping collectors traders buyers to quickly sort average rolled items from your item with some max rolls?

Just a thought.

Aards.

It doesn’t work for rune words though. As an example, I once rolled a 344% ED Hand of Justice, but the ED roll of HoJ is 280-330, so what was the base and what was the roll? It’s impossible to know or prove (without unsocketing it with

Hel +

Scroll of Town Portal) if it was 14ed base with perfect (maxroll) 330 ed roll, or a perfect 15ed base with a non-perfect 329 ed roll.

I think the only long-term solution is to have granular & searchable stats for listed items, but I’ve no idea if that will ever happen.

ShadowHeart wrote: 1 hour ago

AardvarksAdvance wrote: 1 hour ago

Perhaps we should have a ‘max rolls’ (nothing to do with the website that is a very helpful source of knowledge!) button which when clicked allows you to specify the number?

So if you have an item with 5 variable stats, and it rolls 4 max rolls, you can click to indicate 4 max rolls. That way you’re not claiming perfection but you are helping collectors traders buyers to quickly sort average rolled items from your item with some max rolls?

Just a thought.

Aards.

It doesn’t work for rune words though. As an example, I once rolled a 344% ED Hand of Justice, but the ED roll of HoJ is 280-330, so what was the base and what was the roll? It’s impossible to know or prove (without unsocketing it with

Hel +

Scroll of Town Portal) if it was 14ed base with perfect (maxroll) 330 ed roll, or a perfect 15ed base with a non-perfect 329 ed roll.

I think the only long-term solution is to have granular & searchable stats for listed items, but I’ve no idea if that will ever happen.

Perhaps D2R needs a ‘item forensics’ screen - like the pull out menu for character stats - where you can view base item rolls (with mins/max set out alongside) and - the separately any RW added stats or jewel added stats alongside..

Overall rolls are confusing without being able to see a breakdown. It’s similar to the current update with the new Uber jewels…

Am I looking at an eschuta with a base of 10 fire with a 15 fire jewel in, or is this a base 20 fire with a 5 jewel in. Many times even the seller won’t know as they didn’t craft it and no one wants to waste a

Hel to unbuild it given that a 25 fire eschuta is very serviceable (and the old max) anyway.

Aards.

Yeah, that is annoying af, yet i dont care if def roll on griffons is not perf, but i believe it should be 15 20 to get a perfect tag. And too much clutter here with every1 putting perfect on far from perf uniqs

Been wondering when the next discussion on this would start up again.. ^^

The simple fact is that "perfect" is a subjective definition. Not just in the context of D2 but in most scenarios. Hence dictionary definitions also including exactly that aspect of it.

Simple example:
If an Infinity rolls with 325ed and say 49 -res, most people who want it for their merc would consider it perfect. Those who want to self-wield on the other hand would consider it nowhere even close. And collectors equally wouldn't consider it perfect. At the same time, for those collectors, many would consider it perfect if it had rolled 325/55 but even then, some would still consider it flawed if it isn't in a sup 15/3 base.

There is no definition of a simple "perfect" tag that would ever satisfy everyone in the context of D2 trading. Hence the current tag being as vague as it is.
The only truly satisfactory solution to the whole thing would be a specific stat search but that's not currently a thing here and probably kind of a pain for Teebs to still build out, considering how much time he already invests into this site. Given, perhaps he will at some point and I'd be all for it but until then, an intentionally vague tag will have to do as that's the only thing that allows for at least semi-useful narrowing down of search results for all parties involved.

But yes, the tag obviously shouldn't be abused for just any random trash roll with like 1 stat kind of close to perfect. E.g. if you're selling a

Tomb Reaver with a perfect 14 life after kill but trash rolls everywhere else, it certainly is neither perfect nor anywhere even close to it by basically anyone's definition so it should not be tagged as such. And if you see something that far off tagged, report it and we'll untag it.
And I mean "report it"! Don't start random discussions with the author to derail their trade topics just because you disagree with a tag being used.

wulfen777 wrote: 3 hours ago

[..]
Take the Barbhelm "

Wolfhowl" as an example. Including the Defense stat "

Wolfhowl" has 9 variable stats.
[..]

Wolfhowl is a bad example actually, seeing how any item with inherent %ed automatically rolls max+1 base defense. So

Wolfhowl always starts with 151, no matter what, and does indeed only have 8 variable stats as base def only has that one static value.

But yeah, for anything without inherent ED, the Principle holds.

Pitach wrote: 3 hours ago

wulfen777 wrote: 3 hours ago

Pitach wrote: 3 hours ago

wrong
a griffon if it's 20-15 then it is perfect
it doesn't need to have max possible deff to be perfect.
same for each and every other unique item that relies on defense, only with few exceptions.
if you roll a cta as 6/6/4 you will post it as perfect regardless of damage, and so on.
stop chatting nonsense.

That might be YOUR take on this matter.
I would argue from a standpoint of a collector (yes, they exist) to whom it might not only matter what is useful for a build where Defense might not be the most important stat, I'll give you that.
But technically Defense is a variable stat on an item like

Griffon's Eye, just like -20 to Enemy Lightning Res is.

Yes, for most people a Griffon's with -20 / +15 might fall under the category "Perfect" as it suits their needs in the build they aim for.
But for all people? I don't think so.
In particular the Diablo 2 community is known to be home of min/maxing people who go to great length to optimize their characters in every aspect, of which Defense is also one.

That's a nice touch.
I bet the items you collect are basic non value all stats perfect items.
People talk about perfect from trading point of view and not collectors point of view.
You speak for a very low percentage of players, not for the vast majority.
Also, I don't think you have an idea what you talking about perfect griffons on deff, it's value is above 60

Jah currently, not to talk about a perfect tyraels with deff resists and strength, a perfect Last Wish in perfect base with ar, or so on.
In my opinion you only seek attention, once again people talk from trading point of view not collectors point of view, otherwise nobody would be selling anything.
Show me you have a single item worth over 40-50

Jah, or show me that you have 200-300

Jah cash, then you gain my respect otherwise you just seek attention

You're welcome to disagree with his take on what "perfect" means all you want but keep it civil, on topic and cool it with the "chatting nonsense" and "just seek attention" stuff. There's zero need to attack someone solely because you yourself aren't a collector or perfectionist (which many people are) and hence disagree with what makes a perfect item.