I just hit 96 and planned a respec, so time to say goodbye to my non-consensual faithful servant. Thought I'd use this opportunity to play around with Bind Demon mechanics.
There are a few alleged mechanics to play with:
1. Binding a demon creates a snapshot of it's health (including P1-8 scaling) and affixes -- confirmed
2. Your skill level at the time of binding creates a snapshot of the demon's damage, and that is its permanent damage -- unconfirmed
3. Your skill level at the time your demon spawns in a new game snapshots your demon's damage, and that is its permanent damage for the rest of the game -- unconfirmed
4. Your demon's damage depends on your current skill level, i.e., is dynamic and changes with things like adding hard skill points (e.g., leveling) or soft skill points (e.g., equipping +skills gear), hitting skill shrines, or CTA buffing -- unconfirmed
Experimental Design
1. Bind a Fallen till getting Holy Freeze in the Blood Moor using my regular gear
==> A) Measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (average of 10 zombies)
==> B) Take off gear and measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (average of 10 zombies)
2. In a new game, bind a Fallen till getting Holy Freeze in the Blood Moor while naked
==> A) measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
==> B) put on gear and measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
3. In a new game, bind a Fallen till getting Holy Freeze in the Blood Moor using my regular gear
==> Remove gear and start a new game
==> Measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
==> Put gear on again and measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
4. In a new game, bind a Fallen till getting Holy Freeze in the Blood Moor while naked
==> Put on gear and start a new game
==> Measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
==> Take off gear again and measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
I just hit 96 and planned a respec, so time to say goodbye to my non-consensual faithful servant. Thought I'd use this opportunity to play around with Bind Demon mechanics.
There are a few alleged mechanics to play with:
1. Binding a demon creates a snapshot of it's health (including P1-8 scaling) and affixes -- confirmed
2. Your skill level at the time of binding creates a snapshot of the demon's damage, and that is its permanent damage -- unconfirmed
3. Your skill level at the time your demon spawns in a new game snapshots your demon's damage, and that is its permanent damage for the rest of the game -- unconfirmed
4. Your demon's damage depends on your current skill level, i.e., is dynamic and changes with things like adding hard skill points (e.g., leveling) or soft skill points (e.g., equipping +skills gear), hitting skill shrines, or CTA buffing -- unconfirmed
Experimental Design
1. Bind a Fallen till getting Holy Freeze in the Blood Moor using my regular gear
==> A) Measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (average of 10 zombies)
==> B) Take off gear and measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (average of 10 zombies)
2. In a new game, bind a Fallen till getting Holy Freeze in the Blood Moor while naked
==> A) measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
==> B) put on gear and measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
3. In a new game, bind a Fallen till getting Holy Freeze in the Blood Moor using my regular gear
==> Remove gear and start a new game
==> Measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
==> Put gear on again and measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
4. In a new game, bind a Fallen till getting Holy Freeze in the Blood Moor while naked
==> Put on gear and start a new game
==> Measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
==> Take off gear again and measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
@FerociousTerrier Nice plan.
Please use some very standard gear with as small variability as possible. Like Spirit, Horazon set, old sunder charm only (no+ to skill damage or - enemy resist), etc.
This will be easy for others to replicate.
@FerociousTerrier Nice plan.
Please use some very standard gear with as small variability as possible. Like Spirit, Horazon set, old sunder charm only (no+ to skill damage or - enemy resist), etc.
This will be easy for others to replicate.
I'm a bit limited on resources, but will do another round removing my more specialized gear like Ars Tor Baalos.
Note: I will also test binding with a Sunder vs No Sunder and starting games with/without sunders and adding/removing sunders afterwards.
Edit: I need to find the lowest level/safest place with physical immunes.
Arcane Sanctuary may be. Full of ghosts. Your Hell Fallen should fire immune. Goatmans can cause troubles.
If you are using Death Mark or Engorge, note that they increase damage done by your Demon. Your + skills will affect this too.
I re thought this. Naked VS Book with +to Bind Demon and Dagger + to Bind Demon will show only this skills. + All skills will affect skills pointEd above.
Note: I will also test binding with a Sunder vs No Sunder and starting games with/without sunders and adding/removing sunders afterwards.
Edit: I need to find the lowest level/safest place with physical immunes.
Arcane Sanctuary may be. Full of ghosts. Your Hell Fallen should fire immune. Goatmans can cause troubles.
If you are using Death Mark or Engorge, note that they increase damage done by your Demon. Your + skills will affect this too.
I re thought this. Naked VS Book with +to Bind Demon and Dagger + to Bind Demon will show only this skills. + All skills will affect skills pointEd above.
*lol , this already starts feeling like work*
Didn't mention that I won't use Death Mark or Engorge, just let the demon attack. The problem with + Bind Demon books/daggers (I have +3 of both), is that at only +6 skills, it may be difficult to see a difference. But I can add that comparison in the mix--Naked vs Bind Demon skills vs fully geared. This is also why staying in the Blood Moor is better, since it will be complicated to survive elsewhere. NOTE: if the Fallen dies easily, that is another data point to add.
After that, we can start getting into multivariable models like adding Merc Auras. Emilio might be making the ultimate Sacrifice for science.. multiple times.
Note: I can also test the sunders with summoning Tainteds since I have a renewed fire sunder--although this has likely already been tested (summoning with sunder then removing sunder and vice-versa).
I just hit 96 and planned a respec, so time to say goodbye to my non-consensual faithful servant. Thought I'd use this opportunity to play around with Bind Demon mechanics.
There are a few alleged mechanics to play with:
1. Binding a demon creates a snapshot of it's health (including P1-8 scaling) and affixes -- confirmed
2. Your skill level at the time of binding creates a snapshot of the demon's damage, and that is its permanent damage -- unconfirmed
3. Your skill level at the time your demon spawns in a new game snapshots your demon's damage, and that is its permanent damage for the rest of the game -- unconfirmed
4. Your demon's damage depends on your current skill level, i.e., is dynamic and changes with things like adding hard skill points (e.g., leveling) or soft skill points (e.g., equipping +skills gear), hitting skill shrines, or CTA buffing -- unconfirmed
Experimental Design
1. Bind a Fallen till getting Holy Freeze in the Blood Moor using my regular gear
==> A) Measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (average of 10 zombies)
==> B) Take off gear and measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (average of 10 zombies)
2. In a new game, bind a Fallen till getting Holy Freeze in the Blood Moor while naked
==> A) measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
==> B) put on gear and measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
3. In a new game, bind a Fallen till getting Holy Freeze in the Blood Moor using my regular gear
==> Remove gear and start a new game
==> Measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
==> Put gear on again and measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
4. In a new game, bind a Fallen till getting Holy Freeze in the Blood Moor while naked
==> Put on gear and start a new game
==> Measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
==> Take off gear again and measure how long/how many hits it takes the bound Fallen to kill a Zombie in the Blood Moor (avg of 10)
[..]
1. Binding a demon creates a snapshot of it's health (including P1-8 scaling) and affixes -- confirmed
[..]
Has that actually been confirmed post-patch? Now that there is a health Cap, whatever it may be, I wouldn't just assume that a blanket statement of "P8 > P1" still holds true.
I wouldn't even be surprised if the whole reason for the health Cap was to counter exactly that.
@FerociousTerrier Nice plan.
Please use some very standard gear with as small variability as possible. Like Spirit, Horazon set, old sunder charm only (no+ to skill damage or - enemy resist), etc.
This will be easy for others to replicate.
You'd actually want the gear to be as top-end and extreme as possible so as to maximize the impact of gear (=max possible skill points), by extension maximizing any possible "difference due to gear", in turn minimizing the impact of random chance/dmg spread on the results.
[..]
1. Binding a demon creates a snapshot of it's health (including P1-8 scaling) and affixes -- confirmed
[..]
Has that actually been confirmed post-patch? Now that there is a health Cap, whatever it may be, I wouldn't just assume that a blanket statement of "P8 > P1" still holds true.
I wouldn't even be surprised if the whole reason for the health Cap was to counter exactly that.
@FerociousTerrier Nice plan.
Please use some very standard gear with as small variability as possible. Like Spirit, Horazon set, old sunder charm only (no+ to skill damage or - enemy resist), etc.
This will be easy for others to replicate.
You'd actually want the gear to be as top-end and extreme as possible so as to maximize the impact of gear (=max possible skill points), by extension maximizing any possible "difference due to gear", in turn minimizing the impact of random chance/dmg spread on the results.
I'll add a P1 vs P8 comparison. A Fallen shouldn't be too difficult to see it's health drop, as opposed to Heph, Lister, Blunderbore, etc.
[..]
1. Binding a demon creates a snapshot of it's health (including P1-8 scaling) and affixes -- confirmed
[..]
Has that actually been confirmed post-patch? Now that there is a health Cap, whatever it may be, I wouldn't just assume that a blanket statement of "P8 > P1" still holds true.
I wouldn't even be surprised if the whole reason for the health Cap was to counter exactly that.
@FerociousTerrier Nice plan.
Please use some very standard gear with as small variability as possible. Like Spirit, Horazon set, old sunder charm only (no+ to skill damage or - enemy resist), etc.
This will be easy for others to replicate.
You'd actually want the gear to be as top-end and extreme as possible so as to maximize the impact of gear (=max possible skill points), by extension maximizing any possible "difference due to gear", in turn minimizing the impact of random chance/dmg spread on the results.
I'll add a P1 vs P8 comparison. A Fallen shouldn't be too difficult to see it's health drop, as opposed to Heph, Lister, Blunderbore, etc.
While you're add it, you could run that life comparison twice:
Once with Blood Oath and once with 0 pts (hard or soft) in Blood Oath. See if that's impacting it now.
Has that actually been confirmed post-patch? Now that there is a health Cap, whatever it may be, I wouldn't just assume that a blanket statement of "P8 > P1" still holds true.
I wouldn't even be surprised if the whole reason for the health Cap was to counter exactly that.
You'd actually want the gear to be as top-end and extreme as possible so as to maximize the impact of gear (=max possible skill points), by extension maximizing any possible "difference due to gear", in turn minimizing the impact of random chance/dmg spread on the results.
I'll add a P1 vs P8 comparison. A Fallen shouldn't be too difficult to see it's health drop, as opposed to Heph, Lister, Blunderbore, etc.
While you're add it, you could run that life comparison twice:
Once with Blood Oath and once with 0 pts (hard or soft) in Blood Oath. See if that's impacting it now.
I JUST pumped points into Blood Oath. I do have one token in the stash though... For science!
The problem currently: I can't bind any Fallen. The summoned goats one shot it. I may need to find a +1 Miasma BoltKris or something.
So far I have only confirmed that summoning Tainted while having a fire sunder in your inventory makes the taineted damage fire immunes. This works whether or not you keep your sunder in your inventory. It also goes the reverse. If you Summon Tainted without a fire sunder in your inventory and then add the fire sunder, your Tainted do no damage to fire immunes.
I do not yet know how this translates to Bound demons. I'm still working on minimally damaging a Fallen so I can bind it...
I'm still working on minimally damaging a Fallen so I can bind it...
Summon a defiler instead of a Goatman. You can "slap" the Fallen as he's busy with the defiler and to not kill him.
I just respeced to get a cursed Heph. I killed my bound pre-patch next-to-immortal Heph and got a cursed one (no immunities on him) and he's taking damage quite easily. TZ 96, P8 both.
I have to take a look at his life bar once in a while. I didn't do any Ubers or Ancients yet, as I'm on a 1000 Hell Countess challenge.
I'm still working on minimally damaging a Fallen so I can bind it...
Summon a defiler instead of a Goatman. You can "slap" the Fallen as he's busy with the defiler and to not kill him.
I got a Dagger from Akara with misma bolt. That worked.
Problem is still that the little sucker kills in one hit. In P7, he killed everything but one Zombie in a single hit. And I suspect he just missed the one time.
I'm about to do the strip-down and start a new game naked to see what that does.
Note: ran into an elite pack of zombies and they can definitely kill the Fallen (P1), so I will also try to note how many hits he can take before I have to port or run out to keep him from dying.
So far I have only confirmed that summoning Tainted while having a fire sunder in your inventory makes the taineted damage fire immunes. This works whether or not you keep your sunder in your inventory. It also goes the reverse. If you Summon Tainted without a fire sunder in your inventory and then add the fire sunder, your Tainted do no damage to fire immunes.
I do not yet know how this translates to Bound demons. I'm still working on minimally damaging a Fallen so I can bind it...
Confirmed as well.
-Fire resist works nicely even after you removed/snapped your gear.
Yesterday got one more sunder charm on ladder and tested difference. Charms are : -8 to enemy fire resist (traded my only Shako for this) and +10 to fire skill damage.
No other gear with -fire resist. Damage increase is neglible against not immune to fire. Everything going down in one shot on Hell TZ P1. But killing speed is different against immunes. -8 is a total winner .
So far I have only confirmed that summoning Tainted while having a fire sunder in your inventory makes the taineted damage fire immunes. This works whether or not you keep your sunder in your inventory. It also goes the reverse. If you Summon Tainted without a fire sunder in your inventory and then add the fire sunder, your Tainted do no damage to fire immunes.
I do not yet know how this translates to Bound demons. I'm still working on minimally damaging a Fallen so I can bind it...
Confirmed as well.
-Fire resist works nicely even after you removed/snapped your gear.
Yesterday got one more sunder charm on ladder and tested difference. Charms are : -8 to enemy fire resist (traded my only Shako for this) and +10 to fire skill damage.
No other gear with -fire resist. Damage increase is neglible against not immune to fire. Everything going down in one shot on Hell TZ P1. But killing speed is different against immunes. -8 is a total winner .
Does the -8% apply to your Tainted's hits? Or just your Blood Boil? If you remove the sunder, do the Tainted still keep the -8% to enemy resist?
Does the -8% apply to your Tainted's hits? Or just your Blood Boil? If you remove the sunder, do the Tainted still keep the -8% to enemy resist?
Yes, in my testing they do keep -8 .
On off ladder my boiler has 3- item Horazon book and MangSong with some minus for fire resist Stone on swap. After summoning I swap to Ondals and Baal book . I really feel big difference in killing speed if I forget to swap and spawned my 3 Tainted with my "main" gear. My merc has Infinity there, but that - 35 resist from gear boosts Tainted a LOT!
Ok, I am terminating this trial early due to overwhelming results. Also, it is very tedious.
I burned my Token to test the bound demon with only one point in Demon Mastery, one point in Blood Oath and 5 points in Bind Demon--the 5 points in Bind Demon was to get the Extra Strong affix in the "weakest" demon so there is no discrepancy between the weak one and the maxed bound demon (making sure to Blessed Aim aura). In the end, it wasn't necessary. The results are clear.
I skipped several comparisons: Binding the demon completely maxed out at 49/47/47 and testing naked (20/20/20) and equipped, and testing P8-bound demons. The results would be the same, but I'd one-shot everything in both cases.
CONCLUSIONS:
1. At time of binding, it is likely that Bind Demon level is what matters most RE: which affixes your demon gets, and hard points for quality of demon. Damage changes afterwards. Blood Oath is... well, it's confusing.
2. Your demon's damage entirely depends on what you are equipping/carrying at the start of the game. You can take off all your cloths and run around naked with a super demon afterwards. OR, you can completely switch gears to an Abyss build, Boiler build, Eldrich build, or Fire build and still have a super tanky, super strong demon. But, it might be tedious to keep so much gear on swap.
RE: Blood Oath, I didn't do a formal test of the health Cap. The only thing I did was Death Mark him into the middle of a pack of quill monsters at 1/5/1 and at 30/32/28. In both cases, he lasted about 5 seconds until I had to port him out to save him. I don't know how to interpret that, whether it means his health Cap is low, whether the Blood Oath boost is not doing much, or if his life in P1 was low to start with that the % increase isn't much of a boost.
EDIT: I just decided to go ahead and bind at Fallen at 1/5/20 (20 Blood Oath) and Marked him into a bunch of mobs. He is DEFINITELY lasting much longer than the 1/5/1 Fallen that was Marked into mobs at 1/5/1 OR at 30/32/28. Might need more testing, but this could mean that Blood Oath is taken into consideration at time of binding (???). He's not immortal, but didn't expect that from a P1 Fallen in any case.
I also tried binding a Fallen Shaman with or without a Fire Sunder to see if that affects its damage against fire immunes... inconclusive. It's Fireball does very little damage, and I'm not entirely sure it doesn't include some physical as well. So I could only see a tiny sliver of health leave Fallen whenever its fireballs would hit them. He could one-shot them though if they came close enough to hit with his stick.
List trades and earn trust
Level up as you post
Give and Receive Likes
Discreet Notifications
Avatar & Profile customisation
Private Messaging
Bookmark Pages & Posts
Use Drafts & Revisions
Attach Images
Squelches this trader, making their offers on your trades invisible to anyone except themselves. Their trade listings will also be hidden from your marketplace.
Your squelch list can be managed and edited from Top right dropdown > Account Prefs > Squelches.
Hide ads
Alkorthedruid, 
brownSys, 
Daemondread, 
everyglenn17, 
FerociousTerrier, 
JioInzagi, 
leox, 
mhlg, 
PetalBot [Bot], 
Quarter, 
Scorchy, 
varangium and 321 guests.
FerociousTerrier
66