The desire for the "perfect" base

This is something that has had me puzzled about this game back when runewords first came out. Sweet Phil has talked about as well in a couple of videos...

Why do people play the game, potentially struggling, until they find that GG 467 max defense superior 15% enhanced defense roll

Dusk Shroud to make an Enigma?

I understand it's a

Jah and

Ber rune, but as long as it's a base that your char can physically equip (strength or otherwise) I am a firm believer you will enjoy the game just as much even with a few hundred less defense!

Just to run the numbers;
Lowest quality DS defense is 361 plus a lowest roll 750 Enigma is 1111
Highest quality superior DS defense is 538 plus highest 775 Enigma is 1313

Your character is not going to be astronomically worse with 202 less defense. Yes, absolutely it is better to have more defense, but to play the game for HOURS/DAYS/MONTHS(?) to get +200 defense...

And then there is the fact that no one wants to build an Enigma out of a medium or heavy base... You're typically building it for

Teleport! WHO CARES IF YOU GET A RUN/WALK PENALTY!?

Then you're going to equip a

Monarch shield (str req of 156) and not build your armor out of say, a

Boneweave... Which requires only 158 strength points and has the LOWEST defense base of 505 versus the 361 DS, potentially giving you the lowest possible roll of 1255 defense... At what cost? 2 strength points and a slower run/walk?

The stigma of "you have to have the best base" is kind of moot to me. Personally I get sick of seeing every character look the same with their DS or MP,

Shako,

Phase Blade,

Monarch... But that's just me!

/end rant



Jeremy

And the most hilarious part is the fact that defense has very little help in this game. Def just simply put matters not. Its the resistances that actually help.

Its unfortunate that the def is so little affecting.

It's Diablo 2 !
There's a hunt for the perfect stats on any item. That's just it
It's like colors on facets, gaphics on charms, Ethereal on caster weapons, ...
It's just a challenge to go further than just have all the items you need. You're not finished, now you want all the PERFECT items

For most casual players I would say they don't really care about that extra 200 defense, its barely noticable..

But for oldies, experienced players that have already poured so much time into the game, and I'm just speculating here, but I would assume why they would want that extra 200 defense is because they have "beat" the game, they've done everything they can think of. They have time to spend on these perfect items because otherwise its just regular farming, for more

Jah and

Ber, which they have no real use for anyways because they have all the high runes they need. With the abundance of HRs they could probably spend them on some GG bases and uniques.

It's all about casual vs min/max mentality. But, I cannot let your

Boneweave Enigma example slip by though!
Yes

Boneweave is 158 strenght. But Enigma gives you a lot of strenght that help you reach that 156 strength to equip the

Monarch. It will cost you far more than 2 extra strength points to equip that

Boneweave Enigma instead of

Dusk Shroud!

LordKoco wrote: 4 months ago

It's all about casual vs min/max mentality. But, I cannot let your

Boneweave Enigma example slip by though!
Yes

Boneweave is 158 strenght. But Enigma gives you a lot of strenght that help you reach that 156 strength to equip the

Monarch. It will cost you far more than 2 extra strength points to equip that

Boneweave Enigma instead of

Dusk Shroud!

I do understand the point of saving the 20 str to equip Enigma vs reaching the 158 on the

Boneweave and an additional 20 "wasted". But again, 20 vitality is what, 20 HP? So, a small charm.

This is more aimed towards people that I have met in game that have been playing for a month, sometimes less. I was told I was wasting a

Lo rune making a Fortitude in a

Boneweave for instance. The

Boneweave rolled 1494 defense. I have a

Sacred Armor Fortitude as well that is 1815 defense for my barb. Strength requirements for those two are 158 vs 230 respectively.

The novelty side of it is fine, it keeps the game alive for some... But with the information out there it seems like new players might get turned off looking for that GG base not realizing they may never, ever find it... When in fact, it really doesn't matter.

My barb did great with his non-ethereal Oath

Balrog Blade for many many many trav/cow runs. Then I found it. Ethereal

Balrog Blade, and Larz gave me my 4os... Now he's much better. But he was still good prior.



Jeremy

Semirotta wrote: 4 months ago

And the most hilarious part is the fact that defense has very little help in this game. Def just simply put matters not. Its the resistances that actually help.

No, the most hilarious part is the fact that most players run, negating all that defense obtained with great effort.

LordKoco wrote: 4 months ago

It's all about casual vs min/max mentality. But, I cannot let your

Boneweave Enigma example slip by though!
Yes

Boneweave is 158 strenght. But Enigma gives you a lot of strenght that help you reach that 156 strength to equip the

Monarch. It will cost you far more than 2 extra strength points to equip that

Boneweave Enigma instead of

Dusk Shroud!

Moreover,

Boneweave is a medium (i.e. not light) armor, meaning that it will reduce you run/walk speed (and drain stamina quicker). Sure, Enigma gives you

Teleport, but you don't always

Teleport (towns being a notable exception), so FRW is not to be completely ignored.

Hineythegreat wrote: 4 months ago

But again, 20 vitality is what, 20 HP? So, a small charm.

Actually 40-80 (2-4 per vita), depending on the class.

Hineythegreat wrote: 4 months ago

they may never, ever find it...

If you play online, you don't find it, you buy it. So we come back to rich people with many Bers/Jahs, they buy perfect stuff, they don't find it.
That's how poor people make money

So when some said to you you're wasting your

Lo making a Fortitude in a "poor" base, it's because if you roll a good one, you won't be able to sell it to rich people seeking those perfect items.

Offline, you're totally right, making Enigma/Fortitude in whatever base will bring you all what you need,

Teleport, +Skills, resistances, ED, ...

You're right, we don't really care about the defense (maybe a little bit for a Merc ?), like we said, it's just a challenge for wealthy people, nothing else.


PS : 20 Vita is a lot more than 20 Life, and you don't spare only 20 strength, but more like 60-70 (Enigma brings 0,75 str per char level). So in the case of making Enigma in a

Mage Plate vs

Archon Plate (or

Boneweave ^^), it's useful for survivability, really.

Defence matters for PVP. It might be the difference between a win and loss. So is desirable no matter whether it's useful for PVE. Cost inflated for that alone.

Other reasons are that some players like to end game min / max.

And to add to what others have added to my previous post, people min/max'ing are either collectors or PVP. I am completely new to this forum as I just discovered it, but there is still a thriving PVP community where min/max'ing can make the difference in a duel.

when you play long enough and have stashes full of high runes, finished all builds you wanted... what else is left? to go for perfect rolls. same as some1 likes to collect holy grail aka me. everyone have own matter of interest. some just like to make several mules just full of

Jah/

Ber runes. it's a game for each type of disorder

Hineythegreat wrote: 4 months ago

And then there is the fact that no one wants to build an Enigma out of a medium or heavy base... You're typically building it for

Teleport! WHO CARES IF YOU GET A RUN/WALK PENALTY!?

Just sent my coffee straight through my nose.

This is just an artifact of the game being alive for too long, with players using the same characters for years. At some point, you basically run out of things to optimize so the pool of upgrades is tiny and extremely marginal. I mean, to follow your Enigma example, not only are you teleporting around but you are also never walking, so defense is only active when you're standing still.

It gets to a point where it has absolutely nothing to do with utility, it's all just about the aesthetics of perfection. It's the same thing that leads people to value the same unique piece of armor with perfect stats many times higher than with 1 less point of some random stat. It's not even min-maxing, practically speaking, it's optimizing for the feeling of accomplishment, or the satisfaction of absolute completion.

For game play aspect.
for sorc, 200 defense is 1% avoid been hit chance.
And medium armor walk plenty is worth 30 resistance. I have a char dedlicate to run speed, I sometimes even think to replace engima with Hustle to reach speedster like speed. It play like need for speed.

And it looks you go into other extreme.

The other way, you make it with 361 and get perfect roll 775 . When you want to sell it and says it is perfect roll 775 and desire high price. Everyone will reply it with smile . it it true story.

Agreed on the resale value, but I have separation anxiety, so I hate getting rid of things!

Usually I give away my old pieces if/when I find something new...

My crafts I hold onto even if I know they suck. But they are my babies. I made them!



Jeremy

About craft, you can set a number , like 30.
Top class amulet , rank 1-10. pick 2 for sale
Second level amulet, rank 11-20, regular average price for sale.
Third level amulet, rank 20-30 . Sell it as cheap as possible to get rid of it quickly.

All those craft must have +1 skill at least. And if you exceed 30 amulet, you might consider sell some directly to vendor.
Usually, if you craft 500, 10% of it look like something. All others just go.

I think its definitely the min/max I've got everything else, may as well go for perfect. But it could also be because of this

https://i.redd.it/r8qorzmdzsx71.png

davme_mcreg wrote: 4 months ago

... But it could also be because of this

https://i.redd.it/r8qorzmdzsx71.png

I absolutely go for the "skin" as well, provided the base actually makes sense.

I personally like the look of the

Boneweave on most characters.

Thank you for posting this link, I came across it a while ago and glad I now have a place to reference it for the future!



Jeremy

Generally an Enigma is made in

Mage Plate,

Dusk Shroud or

Wyrmhide, maximum

Archon Plate due to low str requirements and the fact that are a light armor, so the run/walk speed is not affected. Less strength requirements means more available points for vitality.

Fortitude for chars is generally made in

Archon Plate or

Great Hauberk or

Scarab Husk or

Wire Fleece.



Fortitude for mercs generally made im medium or heavy ethereal armors. Defense for mercs is important

Hey I agree that it's a little silly how long people will search for a perfect defense item given how little it affects your gameplay, but that is pretty much d2 in a nutshell, the difference in market value for a perfect item vs a 1 off perfect is massive, despite practically no change in gameplay (except fcr/fhr breakpoints and stuff like that).

That being said, If your end goal for a character is to make an Enigma for it, i think you're very likely to come across a 3os

Mage Plate or similar long before you collect your

Jah and

Ber runes, and as others have said FRW still does affect gameplay because of running around in town.

Also something else I wanted to point out

Hineythegreat wrote: 4 months ago

I do understand the point of saving the 20 str to equip Enigma vs reaching the 158 on the

Boneweave and an additional 20 "wasted". But again, 20 vitality is what, 20 HP? So, a small charm.

I think Enigma gives you +0.75 Per Character Level to str so it's actually fairly significant. At level 88 that's 66 str instead of vit. Also FYI, every point of vit adds multiple points of health depending on the class

e.g. those 66 extra vit points would translate into

• Barbarian +4 hp/vit (264 extra hp)
• Amazon, Assassin, and Paladin +3 hp/vit (198 extra hp)
• Druid, Necromancer, and Sorceress +2 hp/vit (132 extra hp)