Looks like 8 frame is highest attack rate. Appears that you will need every single skill point to be invested in this skill and Conviction aura if you want to be the very best avenger you can be. There appears to be some confusion around what constitutes the base damage upon which the elemental damage is multiplied, but consensus is that Grief is out and ebotd is king.
The ias breakpoints without Fanaticism are way too steep for zerker Axe base. But the gripe is that mana can be problematic without Insight. Is there any other one handed ethereal elite weapon with higher base attack speed than zerker which can get 6 sockets for the botd? War Spike I think. Bleh.
I’d say you’re about to embark on a long and arduous spiritual journey my friend.
On another note I was thinking about the barbarian Iron Golem. What about cranium basher base socketed with a cold res/fire res jewel? Do Iron Golem gain benefits provided through socketed jewels or runes? The amp dam proc would be disappointingly rare, but cranium basher comes with high innate all res. I think that summons aren’t subject to difficulty res penalties meaning the Iron Golem could get a max of around 80 res to cold and fire which are, to my knowledge, the damage types most likely to kill him. Sadly, I think the Iron Golem may also be susceptible to physical damage.
I’ve happened to find my first two cranium basher this ladder season and might run some, presumably, short tests to gauge its survivability as well as usefulness.
Oh my god… i didn’t even think to check if there were any other 1 handed weapons that could have 6 sockets!!!!
I see them drop all the time! I probably have just ran over some superior Eth ones, haha
Yup War Spike ebotd is exactly what im going to do!
Thanks! You just saved my sanity
Also yea The Cranium Basher should do well, might be weird to say but maybe a Perfect Skull to give it life leech? Or maybe a 15ias & 15 all res one? If those even exist… haha
With a good BO, Shout, an act 2 Prayer merc and maybe an oak Spirit should do ok!
Don't forget you won't need Sunder charms (since you'll be doing all of different elemental dmg)... Infinity still helps I guess (but I would argue Faith/Insight is much better choice for Merc). But yes, for pure Vengeance purpose you just need some big stick that can BONK hard, since your dmg gets kinda converted from physical to elemental (or let me rather say it's based off of your weapon dmg and then it builds on top of that is the most accurate statement). That's pretty much it.
I guess you can add some auras if you like (not like me, but whichever you prefer most -- Fanaticism, Conviction, Defiance, Redemption?), also I have to warn you: it's heavily mana dependent. You are gonna chug those mana pots like craaaaazy (while leveling my Auradin, I was literally running with 1 health and 3 mana columns in my Belt and was collecting excessive mana pots in cube).
If you are gonna run on higher player counts, I feel like that build is quite squishy as well.
Now Skillers wise, I think I properly tested this with my Auradin and the biggest gain on Vengeance dmg (assuming you are running Conviction as your main aura yourself) is if you actually take Offensive skillers. I know, it sounds counter-intuitive. Why is it the best like that? -Well because you gain much more by saving hard points which you can put into Salvation for example, not to mention you can take Blessed Aim with 1 point and get that sweet passive AR and max fire/cold/light res auras aka not suffer from any of your max res being below 85 (except poison). Now all of that is counted for the "average" strikes (elemental dmg will be more average across the board) and not specific to enemy types/mods. If you are gonna go with double Dream then you won't really care much about +dmg you'll be getting from Fire/Cold synergies but then again, you are still mostly lightning oriented.
P.S. For entire equipment, I guess you want to go with max +skills and make your "one-trick-pony" the best possible.
I would personally say run with Vengeance + Conviction yourself and have Faith on Act 1 Merc. If you are gonna go with that double Dream build, sure... But I kinda feel every build ends up being similar with Tesladin, which is kinda meh for me. That's why I'm saying instead of going with double Dream, maybe try something in way of Dream + Phoenix or even without Dream completely with Phoenix + Shako which would help with mana problems a bit (you can always take Crown of Ages and put whatever you lack in it).
I don't know, gotta leave that to you to decide where you want to go with it and play with numbers accordingly.
Ma neeeeeeema veeeeeeeze! xd
Someone much smarter than me already said once: "The real value of something doesn't reflect in a number of how much a seller can ask for it, but on how much a buyer is willing to pay."
Oh my god… i didn’t even think to check if there were any other 1 handed weapons that could have 6 sockets!!!!
I see them drop all the time! I probably have just ran over some superior Eth ones, haha
Yup War Spike ebotd is exactly what im going to do!
Thanks! You just saved my sanity
Also yea The Cranium Basher should do well, might be weird to say but maybe a Perfect Skull to give it life leech? Or maybe a 15ias & 15 all res one? If those even exist… haha
With a good BO, Shout, an act 2 Prayer merc and maybe an oak Spirit should do ok!
Pretty sure I found and sold a shimmering jewel of alacrity (15/15) this season. Could get amp to proc more often, but I sold that thing for a high rune or 2… and I think this golem will die within 10 mins of play. Im not that rich. As far as the Skull, I question the little guys ability to life leech for much. I think he barely breaks single digit damage lol. I’m pretty sure you could score a 40/40/10/10 res jewel but those are crazy rare. You’d have to roll perfect and on 3 separate prefixes. It’d probably be best to throw a cold res jewel maybe with ias and then put a Flickering Flame on your merc to shore up the golems fire res. I know the cold res is important bc I tested a reapers toil metal grid golem and a cold enchanteds Frost Nova is what put him down. He did proc decrep much more often than I’d expected. In that vein, maybe you could make reapers toll work. You’d lose corpses but get a major damage buff. Its just that his res may not be enough to prevent him from getting one shotted which was the main boon of cranium basher.
The ebotd War Spike would require an additional 49 ias to get you to max attack rate, much more reasonable than the zerker. With a source of Fanaticism it’d be np. Be warned, I’ve heard that outside sources of +%physical damage like auras won’t increase your elemental damage as an avenger it would help with your leech though.
Extensive number comparison (for lvl 99 character) against Dummy [from maxroll]:
Note: BotD helps a lot against bosses and definitely removes that annoyance of needing constant repairs. I did all calculations with random res small charms, so based on that alone dmg and/or stats can be boosted a little bit more. Same goes for switching some gear out if you prefer or just, well, roll better.
As you can see, even on the more aura oriented builds like the last one, 5-10k DPS is not THAT huge of a difference although it is pretty significant on higher players count; still not huge gap in comparison to Smitter who has 130k DPS or whatever bs... xd
But dmg types are more equal which better suits Vengeance theme IMHO. When I actually think about it, it probably has the most impact if you are running Fanaticism yourself + Infinity on Merc, maybe? If you run into some nasty Physical+Lightning immunes that you can't break for example... Didn't test out that particular case.
Ma neeeeeeema veeeeeeeze! xd
Someone much smarter than me already said once: "The real value of something doesn't reflect in a number of how much a seller can ask for it, but on how much a buyer is willing to pay."
Hmm, good data, i just rolled a Phoenix shield too, so got that to keep the mana up, i was thinking maybe I’d wear Flickering Flame myself, i think it gives +3 to Vengeance.
Just got to decide on the merc… act2 gots all the auras, but maybe im just sick of them… idk yet
Just got to decide on the merc… act2 gots all the auras, but maybe im just sick of them… idk yet
Thanks! It took some time to compile all the data because I messed up some numbers (and was rounding them up/down), then I had to go through all of it 3 times to fix and double check everything. I think everything is correct now. Also if you Nate or someone else has some other idea as alternative, write me down every piece of equipment so I can put it in and add -- not a problem to re-upload image with more comparison.
Someone much smarter than me already said once: "The real value of something doesn't reflect in a number of how much a seller can ask for it, but on how much a buyer is willing to pay."
A friend of mine plays an Avenger (20 Vengeance, 25+ with bonus Conviction, synergies in res auras, 1 point wonders but also 20 in Zeal for crowded areas). Ebotd Zerker and A1 manic pixie build. Works really well in p3, everything he hits including ubers melt.
His only issue is crowded places but he can Zeal or count on his mates (Bone necro/ cold sorc).
Main: Necromancer / Second: Assassin / Third: Amazon / Check my stash, my crafts and my many cheap Annihilus
Nate2.0 wrote: 9 months ago
[..]
“A” tier build for sure
[..]
I do wonder...has anyone ever actually set out to define real, objective requirements for something to qualify for a given tier?
In my mind, it should for the most part be a simple question of overall avg. performance. And at that point, in a game like D2 which is to a rather large extent very much about farming tons of mobs, any single-target build - even the very best one - would never be anything above C or B tier at best, seeing how they're inherently an order of magnitude+ worse than any high-end aoe build.
And yet, looking at maxroll for example, Smite is S tier, Berserk is S tier, ... so I guess overall performance in a full game context is in no way a significant factor in it.
Mind you, I'm not saying there aren't good single target builds or even excellent ones. Hell, I love my smiter and my barb. But in terms of a comparative tier listing..they're still never anywhere near the true top-end aoe builds in terms of performance.
Fair question, i always considered my own tiering based on the following categories (i defined the top and bottom levels, but left the others to imagination):
Speed: how fast does the character move and kill. F tier = normal walk and takes way too long to kill anything (even if it can), S tier = max Vigor/Frenzy walk/run and the 105 FCR teleporting, kills speed is irrelevant because the character kills so fast the limiting factor is how fast the player can visually scan the loot for important drops.
Durability: what can the character survive? F tier = 1 shotted in the blood Moore p1. S tier = handles P8 worldstone keep, Nihlathak, and lvl 96+terrorized zones without needing potions.
Flexibility: what can the character do? F tier = only 1 specific area on low players count, needs external support to even complete the game, cannot vary in gear. S tier = character can farm almost everywhere, can switch between maxing out MF or damage, can have variety in gear depending on player interest.
Fun: Is the character fun to play? F tier = playing the character is a bore or a chore. S Tier = “THIS CHARACTER IS SOOO MUCH FUN!”
Expensive: How difficult is the needed gear for the character? F tier = equivalent to 10 or more high rune, character could not possibly farm their own gear. S tier = could do this character with whatever gear SSF.
Utility: Does this character serve a specific purpose? F tier = No specific goal of the character’s build. S tier = this character serves a/multiple critical role(s), examples include the goldfind/horking barb, or the Uber smiter. The category of “I don’t care, this character is still good … for … reasons”
For me to classify a build as “S” tier, it would need to be “S” tier in at least 3 categories.
A couple examples: my personal favorite build is the Infinity self-wielding Energy ShieldNova sorc, she is fast, durable, fun, and useful. my hammerdin I’d also consider S tier, but slightly lower than Nova. I’d also put Javazon, and Infinity spearazon in S tier.
This isn’t a hard and fast rule, but something that just makes sense to me
So I’d put my Vengeance pally in “A” tier because he’s really durable (S tier durability), he’s fun (S tier fun), but not really high in any other category, probably B tier for speed he kills stuff almost as fast as a zealot believe it or not, B tier for flexibility, F for expensive (like 15 high runes to deck this guy and his merc out), probably A tier for utility (tanks everything, great auras, kills everything - would be sweet in a group).
Makes sense. Albeit highly subjective, not just in terms of the grouping/requirements themselves but also in the evaluation of them (especially the 'fun' bit).
Though I fully support that idea of subjectivity. Just one of the many reasons I never share/"dictate" full builds of mine - things change (significantly) if a build is played differently or just isn't as fun for you.
Personally, I suppose I'd have an objective base grouping based solely on performance (i.e. clear speed) across a variety of content which would then likely generally end up as:
S - solid Teleport speed + performant aoe clearing
A - high run speed + performant aoe clearing
B - decent to solid Teleport speed + performant single target clearing
C - running + performant single target clearing
D - can clear everything solo but takes forever
F - keeps dying or can't solo the game at all
(just randomly making this up as I go along mind you)
The above would give you fairly clear cutoff points for each tier as you consider the high to top-end performers matching the criteria. Low-end performers with the same "approach" (e.g. slow-motion Teleport + mediocre aoe clearing) would then probably slide down about 1 tier based on comparative overall clear times of a variety of content.
And on top of that, layer a subjective grouping of "S = super fun - could play all day, A = fun but need breaks from the playstyle, F = boring AF". Anything that's F in that is immediately disqualified, S and A are combined with performance tiers to get your real top picks. With the fun tier significantly outweighing the performance tiers cuz...it is a bloody game after all.
E.g. to me, my bowzon is solid S tier, despite being stuck on an A tier performance level for lack of Teleport.
Either way, it was a serious question...have any of them "this is S tier bra!" sites/streamers/whatever ever used objective measurements for anything (if so, link plz! genuinely curious ) or are they just making shit up as they go along (or more commonly copying the shit someone else made up as they went along)?
But even that is more subjective rather than objective.
I also straight up disagree with a number of their build tierings, both higher and lower, while they’ve even straight up omitted many builds! - not that i can fault them too much, everyone has real lives after all, and the majority of their stuff is good
I suppose i could combine Speed & durability, then flexibility & utility together. They’re similar enough
Since I'm casually leveling a Pally on ladder and since I have 3 already, want to try Vengeance Pally. Therefore I'd like to ask to OP: What's your build?
Helm: Andy’s with 15ias +some fire res (ias, +skills)
Armour: EnigmaMage Plate, (tele, + strength)
Weapon: Ebotd Berserker Axe (just so much damage, slightly slower than War Spike, but hits much harder)
Shield: Phoenix (everything)
Amulet: cat’s eye (ias & frw) Belt: nausferatu’s coil (ias) Boots: War Traveler (+damage)
Gloves: Lava Gout (ias + Enchant)
Rings: dual leach & Raven Frost (AR, cbf)
Charms: anni (20/20), torch (19/19), rest is +damage, life and res, just one skiller because it also has frw
Merc: act 5 Frenzy with arreats (15ias + damage), Last Wish, ehustle Conquest Sword and efort (found this set-up to be superior to dual plagues - that guy just died all the time and didn’t cast Lower Resist all that often)
Pretty much the standard load-out skill-wise
It’s pretty good, handles P8 fairly well, could probably change a few things here or there
Nate2.0 wrote: 8 months ago
Here’s my set-up, with reasons in brackets
Helm: Andy’s with 15ias +some fire res (ias, +skills)
Armour: EnigmaMage Plate, (tele, + strength)
Weapon: Ebotd Berserker Axe (just so much damage, slightly slower than War Spike, but hits much harder)
Shield: Phoenix (everything)
Amulet: cat’s eye (ias & frw) Belt: nausferatu’s coil (ias) Boots: War Traveler (+damage)
Gloves: Lava Gout (ias + Enchant)
Rings: dual leach & Raven Frost (AR, cbf)
Charms: anni (20/20), torch (19/19), rest is +damage, life and res, just one skiller because it also has frw
Merc: act 5 Frenzy with arreats (15ias + damage), Last Wish, ehustle Conquest Sword and efort (found this set-up to be superior to dual plagues - that guy just died all the time and didn’t cast Lower Resist all that often)
Pretty much the standard load-out skill-wise
It’s pretty good, handles P8 fairly well, could probably change a few things here or there
Thanks. After a little search I found a result that for BA base, max IAS requirement seems 95. Do you have an idea about it? Not sure if it's true or not. I'm not good at these stuff.
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