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Opinion: Dream or Dragon?

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Schnorki 3812Moderator

PC
marl71 wrote: 10 months ago
..
but the maxroll calculator gives me 148–176 as the base tick damage range for lvl 44
Holy Fire. Not sure why we are getting different numbers
..
Because maxroll in the 148-176 accounts for the -20 fire res you get from HoJ.
If you hover over that, you see the accordingly lower base of 124-147.
Hovering over the skill instead gives you 123-294 which is just "odd". Random assumption for that would be they use separate, slightly different calculations for the different dmg displays which result in different rounding results, giving you 123 on one and 124 on the other for min. And on top of that, they consider the range-amp only for max dmg, not for min, bumping that up from 147 to 294. So..mweh.

Either way, the comparable core number there would be 124-147. Why that one is different exactly I'm not sure. As noted earlier, I was too lazy to double-check all of those so my numbers for that are simply the ones we have for
Holy Fire in the DB here. There's a definite possibility that they changed the base dmg as well (can't recall off the top of my head) which then maybe also didn't get updated here, akin to the synergies (which I simply happened to remember being outdated here). If that's the case, you'd simply be looking at 135 avg for HF rather than 94 or 2911 total. It'd also pull the sorc version up to 1632.

Either way, outcome stays the same: Dragon pally has the highest aura dmg by a (then even) clear(er) margin while Dragon sorc closes in on but still stays behind Dream sorc. :) Dragon/Dream would move up a bit as well, still remaining in the #2 slot.

marl71 wrote: 10 months ago
..
And to add my two cents. Of the pally builds, dragondin is clearly more elemental damage and much more flexible in gear
..
I'd challenge the 'flexible in gear' part. Dragondin dictates at minimum 3 pieces, 2 of which are chest and weapon which tend to be bits that really make a difference (adding other dmg types, Enigma, ...) whereas Dream merely dictates 2 pieces, 1 of which is the same shield as Dragon and the other being your headpiece which inherently makes far less of a difference than a weapon and armor.

Plus 2 dreams alone net you (up to) 40 more all res than 2xdragon+HoJ in 3 slots, again increasing your overall flexibility as you need to focus less on res in the remaining pieces.
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xigua 65

is Dragon pala hell viable or does it become shaky if you do
Baal runs for example?
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xigua wrote: 10 months ago
is Dragon pala hell viable or does it become shaky if you do
Baal runs for example?
For me it really works well since I'm a P1 player. Especially those Ghosts and Stygian Doll's get hacked before you get closer.

No idea about higher player counts, though.

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Schnorki 3812Moderator

PC
xigua wrote: 10 months ago
is Dragon pala hell viable or does it become shaky if you do
Baal runs for example?
They're all "viable", just don't expect any of those builds to compete with actual proper end-game builds.

To put that into a bit more context, say you wanna run CS with it..running as double Dragon + hoj, a normal P1 Venom lord with
Conviction on it tends to take about 5 ticks before it dies. In that same time, a proper FoHdin for example will have blown up everything 5 packs down the road.

Given, the massive aura range kind of makes up for it in wide open spaces but since
Conviction range is crap no matter what, the dmg ticks outside of
Conviction will be on the far lower side, meaning 5 won't suffice anymore.

Any of the auradin variations can run anything in the game. They're just not exactly the fastest at many of those things. Though with a number of TZs nowadays being populated largely (or entirely) with low-life mobs, you'll be much happier with the overall performance than auradins were in the past.
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User avatar

marl71 126

Americas PC
Schnorki wrote: 10 months ago

Because maxroll in the 148-176 accounts for the -20 fire res you get from HoJ....the comparable core number there would be 124-147...looking at 135 avg for HF rather than 94 or 2911 total. It'd also pull the sorc version up to 1632.
Thanks, I did forget the -20 res on Hoj. I guess it's testable, or someone has probably extracted the raw game data. But as you say, the conclusion is the same
Schnorki wrote: 10 months ago
I'd challenge the 'flexible in gear' part. Dragondin dictates at minimum 3 pieces...whereas Dream merely dictates 2 pieces,...plus 2 dreams alone net you (up to) 40 more all res
I agree fixing two pieces of gear is more flexible than fixing three pieces of gear. You are thinking more big picture about all the different aura builds. I was referring specifically to a tesladin in high player counts. On that build, in my experience, you need to mix in substantial physical damage if you want to achieve 100% sustain and also maintain A-tier clear speed. So, for me, that means these additional pieces of gear are "fixed": Grief, Enigma, ravenfrost, a dual leech ring, 73 overall IAS, and a might merc with RT or Pride

On the other hand, a dragondin is a much different playstyle, or at least that's my experience. You get the pulse damage whatever gear you run, so people commonly run stuff like Flickering Flame, dracs, act 5 mercs. Or throw a
Cham in your
Helm, or no CBF at all because you don't want to use
Zeal. Run an act 1 merc with Ice, etc. Super popular build and playstyle, even if it's not for me
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Schnorki 3812Moderator

PC
marl71 wrote: 10 months ago
...
I guess it's testable, or someone has probably extracted the raw game data. But as you say, the conclusion is the same
...
Looking back at the 2.4 patch notes, apparently the raw dmg did indeed go up:
"Damage level scaling increased to 70%"
So yeah, the higher numbers would be more accurate.

@teebling: Seems the dmg values for
Holy Fire are outdated as well then, not just the synergies.
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Schnorki wrote: 10 months ago
Afura wrote: 10 months ago
Thanks for the info :) . Ah yea I prefer not hitting at all and just standing there and watching everything getting killed by my aura
First off, @Teebling the synergy values for
Holy Fire here are wrong (never got updated it seems?). They should be 21 and 10% respectively, rather than 18 and 6.
Trusting you for the remaining numbers still though as I believe they haven't changed and I'm too lazy to double-check everything. :P

With regards to the actual question here:
Dragon-din > Dragon/Dream-din >= Dream Sorc >>>>>>> the rest

Or more specifically (rounded/trunc'd):
image.png

The above is assuming raw base aura damage without the proximity multiplier which is effectively the same for both. Kind of. Technically, the scaling would slightly favor a larger radius (and hence dragons + hoj) but the difference shouldn't typically be all too big on average.

Other gear (facets and the like) is ignored here as you can play around with those as you please and more or less even all of that out across the different build options (or not), depending on your ultimate preference.

Conviction is also ignored. This'd obviously give the pally builds an overall Edge over sorc due to the higher -res but if you're looking specifically at "melt with aura", you'll often enough accomplish that well before they get
Conviction anyways, due to the significantly lower radius on it.

Sorc masteries are conservatively assumed to be lvl 40 though you could push them slightly higher.

Apart from the general base numbers above, each build has its own advantages and disadvantages that you can weigh to your liking to see what you really want in the end. They're all valid, just not all equal for the same purpose.
- Dragon/hoj = significantly higher aura range.
- Dream pally = easily combined with a Grief to add a physical component if you want to actually smack stuff without losing the aura benefit.
- Dream sorc = full light skilling to max out aura damage makes it very easy to also get a lvl 40+ thunderstorm to smack stuff in addition to your aura and with that adds static with an insane range which pairs very well with the idea of aoe aura melting.
- Dream/Dragon/hoj = solid mix of fire and lightning meaning you could pretty much leave out sunders if you're fine with immunes just taking a tad longer (as opposed to not dying at all with pure Dream or Dragon/hoj). not saying you should..but you could.
- Dragon sorc = easily combined with
Hydra or the like for targeted semi-passive melting of whatever high-health mob might be hiding amongst the aura-killed packs, not to mention bosses.
- Dream pally and the sorc versions both allow for getting
Teleport (Enigma/sorc) without sacrificing an aura item. Dragon pally needs to actually run places.
- And so on and so forth...

Personally, if the goal is actual (semi-)passive aoe killing, I kind of prefer the Dream sorc approach over the others but that's just me. :)
Dream pally has shit aura dmg by comparison (mastery >>>>> synergies for
Holy Shock), Dragon pally is missing
Teleport and watching tstorm for added melting is just fun. Plus static is great in terms of making up for the damage that all of them auras ultimately do lack sometimes (on higher counts at the latest).

Added bonus of the Dream versions as well, specifically because aura dmg drops off so hard so quickly, is that you can simply sit there, afk in the middle of a self-chain-pulling pack on P8 and wait for the auras to finally widdle them down while taking basically no damage, thanks to reliable
Confuse procs:
Spoiler
image.png

With Dragon, you actually need to eventually start healing, running, attacking to leech or whatever else you feel like doing to remedy the situation.



Edit:
Apparently, the HF damage values in the DB here are outdated. As a result the numbers for
Holy Fire above should actually be quite a bit higher.
Dragon pally moves to around 2911 total. Sorc to 1632. Dragon/Dream would also move up a bit albeit not by as much due to the lower lvl.
I found the Dream sorc intriguing and built one.
the aoe melting is pretty good. you can static down the mobs a bit and the ticks do the rest. emilio has an inifnity which turns mobs basically into jelly and with one point in
Nova with only around 1.5k damage is enough to quickly finish mob packs and I tried mephi who dies like a regular mob.
I have 110% fcr atm which allows for quick tele, but you can put up a little more damage with a coh, which also has better res. I only have 4 light skillers and if I find more damage goes up even further, but it is already fun to play even now.
you can tele very fast anywhere, the damage is pretty good and stuff like the little bozos in act3 get moved out of the way with one tick from Dream which is very nice. gear is still pretty basic and I wonder if I can optimize stuff there.

what looks nice is this:
image.png
who said a
Wand is bad for hitting things?! :D
(yes, I know I will not hit stuff because I have basically no ar)


I also thought that I move my Dragon/hoj pally to my fire sorc. yeah, fire has big damage numbers with full
Tal Rasha I have 15k
Fireball and 32k
Meteor, which is even low and can be pushed a lot higher. aaaaaanyway, gameplay is boring and nothing spectacular.
now, if I move my Dragon/hoj to the fire sorc and combine it with
Hydra, this could be a major melting machine.
double Dragon/hoj is nice to run around, but as schnorki said you need to heal with pots as you only leech with phys damage and you do more fire damage than anything else, so leeching your life back is pretty bad as well. this makes it not as fun to play and my Dream pally is a lot more fun to play in this regard, because he carries Grief AND has brutal lightning damage on top and leeching back life is a breeze.

@afura sorry for not answering your post. I didn't answer because schnorki already did.

Image
Image
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User avatar

Schnorki 3812Moderator

PC
Crispin wrote: 10 months ago
...
who said a
Wand is bad for hitting things?! :D
(yes, I know I will not hit stuff because I have basically no ar)
...
If you want to actually hit stuff with her, Crescent Moon is your friend. Solid -res makes it not bad to begin with but the ITD means you actually hit stuff reliably (at least for the stuff it works on..so not bosses, sadly).

Fire would have less of a "hit stuff" problem as you could combine it with max
Enchant for some AR but for that one, do keep in mind that
Fire Mastery is far lower while
Holy Fire synergies are far higher so rather than a light sorc offering more aura dmg than the pally version, the fire one actually offers (significantly) less.
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Schnorki wrote: 10 months ago
Crispin wrote: 10 months ago
...
who said a
Wand is bad for hitting things?! :D
(yes, I know I will not hit stuff because I have basically no ar)
...
If you want to actually hit stuff with her, Crescent Moon is your friend. Solid -res makes it not bad to begin with but the ITD means you actually hit stuff reliably (at least for the stuff it works on..so not bosses, sadly).

Fire would have less of a "hit stuff" problem as you could combine it with max
Enchant for some AR but for that one, do keep in mind that
Fire Mastery is far lower while
Holy Fire synergies are far higher so rather than a light sorc offering more aura dmg than the pally version, the fire one actually offers (significantly) less.
I thought about taking out AR with ITD, but as you said, I would have to have an enchantress, but the aoe melting is fun. Crescent Moon is fun indeed. I use it sometimes with my trapsin. 12k lightning traps with solid -res is a lot of fun. I can even kill dclone with it.

I had a hunch that a Dragon sorc is not as strong, presumably fun to play, but not as strong as I hoped. it has around 200% less aura damage and the lvl44 fire aura for a pally is quite the banger.

Image
Image
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User avatar

Afura 10

Druid Europe PC
Schnorki wrote: 10 months ago
Afura wrote: 10 months ago
Thanks for the info :) . Ah yea I prefer not hitting at all and just standing there and watching everything getting killed by my aura
First off, @Teebling the synergy values for
Holy Fire here are wrong (never got updated it seems?). They should be 21 and 10% respectively, rather than 18 and 6.
Trusting you for the remaining numbers still though as I believe they haven't changed and I'm too lazy to double-check everything. :P

With regards to the actual question here:
Dragon-din > Dragon/Dream-din >= Dream Sorc >>>>>>> the rest

Or more specifically (rounded/trunc'd):
image.png

The above is assuming raw base aura damage without the proximity multiplier which is effectively the same for both. Kind of. Technically, the scaling would slightly favor a larger radius (and hence dragons + hoj) but the difference shouldn't typically be all too big on average.

Other gear (facets and the like) is ignored here as you can play around with those as you please and more or less even all of that out across the different build options (or not), depending on your ultimate preference.

Conviction is also ignored. This'd obviously give the pally builds an overall Edge over sorc due to the higher -res but if you're looking specifically at "melt with aura", you'll often enough accomplish that well before they get
Conviction anyways, due to the significantly lower radius on it.

Sorc masteries are conservatively assumed to be lvl 40 though you could push them slightly higher.

Apart from the general base numbers above, each build has its own advantages and disadvantages that you can weigh to your liking to see what you really want in the end. They're all valid, just not all equal for the same purpose.
- Dragon/hoj = significantly higher aura range.
- Dream pally = easily combined with a Grief to add a physical component if you want to actually smack stuff without losing the aura benefit.
- Dream sorc = full light skilling to max out aura damage makes it very easy to also get a lvl 40+ thunderstorm to smack stuff in addition to your aura and with that adds static with an insane range which pairs very well with the idea of aoe aura melting.
- Dream/Dragon/hoj = solid mix of fire and lightning meaning you could pretty much leave out sunders if you're fine with immunes just taking a tad longer (as opposed to not dying at all with pure Dream or Dragon/hoj). not saying you should..but you could.
- Dragon sorc = easily combined with
Hydra or the like for targeted semi-passive melting of whatever high-health mob might be hiding amongst the aura-killed packs, not to mention bosses.
- Dream pally and the sorc versions both allow for getting
Teleport (Enigma/sorc) without sacrificing an aura item. Dragon pally needs to actually run places.
- And so on and so forth...

Personally, if the goal is actual (semi-)passive aoe killing, I kind of prefer the Dream sorc approach over the others but that's just me. :)
Dream pally has shit aura dmg by comparison (mastery >>>>> synergies for
Holy Shock), Dragon pally is missing
Teleport and watching tstorm for added melting is just fun. Plus static is great in terms of making up for the damage that all of them auras ultimately do lack sometimes (on higher counts at the latest).

Added bonus of the Dream versions as well, specifically because aura dmg drops off so hard so quickly, is that you can simply sit there, afk in the middle of a self-chain-pulling pack on P8 and wait for the auras to finally widdle them down while taking basically no damage, thanks to reliable
Confuse procs:
Spoiler
image.png

With Dragon, you actually need to eventually start healing, running, attacking to leech or whatever else you feel like doing to remedy the situation.



Edit:
Apparently, the HF damage values in the DB here are outdated. As a result the numbers for
Holy Fire above should actually be quite a bit higher.
Dragon pally moves to around 2911 total. Sorc to 1632. Dragon/Dream would also move up a bit albeit not by as much due to the lower lvl.
Wow thank you for the very detailed answer and the little picture, that helped a lot with my choice, dragondin it will be :) . This thread has some many good information now about Dream and Dragon paladin it's amazing.

Crispin wrote: 10 months ago
@afura sorry for not answering your post. I didn't answer because schnorki already did.
Don't worry man you already answered a lot of my questions, thank you for that <3
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