worstd2playerever wrote: 2 years ago
2.4 with synergies you will get a ton of extra %enhanced damage (as well as attack rating with Strafe) through your skills, meaning the %damage/AR you get from Faith is not as valuable. You can give your act1 merc a Faith if you want the Fanaticism. IMO A2 merc with natural might aura+Pride will be best for you. This will boost your Windforce's big damage (multiplicative of weapon damage but additive of ED on Fortitude, etc) Even with a perfect superior Grand Matron Bow with perfect Faith rolls you're starting with a much lower damage number to be multiplied many times over by your skill, enhanced damage armors, etc. I haven't formally crunched the numbers but I would suggest you hero edit a single player character and try it out for yourself if you're interested.
My confidence on WF over Faith is 100% in 2.4 PTR testing and not with 2.3. In 2.3 multishot is the more efficient skill most (75%+?) of the time. In 2.4, even though multi is getting buffed too, Strafe is getting buffed so much it will be the reverse and you'll be using Strafe 75% of the time. Strafe loses the 75% dmg starting point, gets stronger per level and gains synergy from guided and multi for (340% at lvl 20). They also added AR to Strafe making the any additional attack rating over a few points in penetration more or less unnecessary. RN I probably prefer Faith in a bowazon but if 2.4 hits the same as it was on PTR Windforce will blow it out of the water. With Pride/Might merc and Fortitude/full ED jewels you're going to be hitting max Strafe dmg in the 12k range. P1 farming speeds won't be that much faster, but you'll be able to do P8, and pretty comfortably.
Additionally, building a ladder bowazon and just using Insight in successively stronger weapons until you get a decent unique bow or xbow is totally going to be a viable early strategy.
Crushnasty wrote: 2 years ago
Next question: I have a Cham and a Sur so I am 1 Lo away from my Pride. But I’m also in need of a polearm. Should I go Cryptic Axe or Thresher??
Crushnasty wrote: 2 years ago
Next question: I have a Cham and a Sur so I am 1 Lo away from my Pride. But I’m also in need of a polearm. Should I go Cryptic Axe or Thresher??
Depends a bit on your focus. Even more so since Mancatcher becomes an option in 2.4 (so..very soon).
Pride is a bit weird in the sense that it has utterly crap physical damage but comes with decent elemental damage.
Normally, (with ED on the weapon), in almost every case, the better raw dps base will be the best choice.
In that case, dependent on your merc's exact gear (mainly the IAS breakpoints he'd reach), that would most of the time be great pole > Giant Thresher > Thresher > cryptic > Mancatcher. Because Pride's physical damage is so utterly bad though, that becomes a fair bit less important.
If you wish to still maximize your merc's leech (which is phys only), you would still go for the highest raw dps base for said merc (I wouldn't trade my GP for anything - but I also use slightly different merc gear in general so take that with a grain of salt) - but know that the difference you achieve there is VERY minor at best. If you're looking to maximize his damage output however, you're likely best off with a Mancatcher in just a few days, simply because it is faster than any pole base and hence maximizes your utilization of Pride's elemental damage.
Crushnasty wrote: 2 years ago
Next question: I have a Cham and a Sur so I am 1 Lo away from my Pride. But I’m also in need of a polearm. Should I go Cryptic Axe or Thresher??
Depends a bit on your focus. Even more so since Mancatcher becomes an option in 2.4 (so..very soon).
Pride is a bit weird in the sense that it has utterly crap physical damage but comes with decent elemental damage.
Normally, (with ED on the weapon), in almost every case, the better raw dps base will be the best choice.
In that case, dependent on your merc's exact gear (mainly the IAS breakpoints he'd reach), that would most of the time be great pole > Giant Thresher > Thresher > cryptic > Mancatcher. Because Pride's physical damage is so utterly bad though, that becomes a fair bit less important.
If you wish to still maximize your merc's leech (which is phys only), you would still go for the highest raw dps base for said merc (I wouldn't trade my GP for anything - but I also use slightly different merc gear in general so take that with a grain of salt) - but know that the difference you achieve there is VERY minor at best. If you're looking to maximize his damage output however, you're likely best off with a Mancatcher in just a few days, simply because it is faster than any pole base and hence maximizes your utilization of Pride's elemental damage.
Crushnasty wrote: 2 years ago
Next question: I have a Cham and a Sur so I am 1 Lo away from my Pride. But I’m also in need of a polearm. Should I go Cryptic Axe or Thresher??
Depends a bit on your focus. Even more so since Mancatcher becomes an option in 2.4 (so..very soon).
Pride is a bit weird in the sense that it has utterly crap physical damage but comes with decent elemental damage.
Normally, (with ED on the weapon), in almost every case, the better raw dps base will be the best choice.
In that case, dependent on your merc's exact gear (mainly the IAS breakpoints he'd reach), that would most of the time be great pole > Giant Thresher > Thresher > cryptic > Mancatcher. Because Pride's physical damage is so utterly bad though, that becomes a fair bit less important.
If you wish to still maximize your merc's leech (which is phys only), you would still go for the highest raw dps base for said merc (I wouldn't trade my GP for anything - but I also use slightly different merc gear in general so take that with a grain of salt) - but know that the difference you achieve there is VERY minor at best. If you're looking to maximize his damage output however, you're likely best off with a Mancatcher in just a few days, simply because it is faster than any pole base and hence maximizes your utilization of Pride's elemental damage.
Thanks for reminding me about Spear bases! I actually have an Eth 4 socket Mancatcher sitting on a mule
Just be sure to wait until after 2.4 hits and someone confirms the changes with an Insight bow or something..Pride is unnecessarily expensive to waste on a delayed/failed patch change.
Depends a bit on your focus. Even more so since Mancatcher becomes an option in 2.4 (so..very soon).
Pride is a bit weird in the sense that it has utterly crap physical damage but comes with decent elemental damage.
Normally, (with ED on the weapon), in almost every case, the better raw dps base will be the best choice.
In that case, dependent on your merc's exact gear (mainly the IAS breakpoints he'd reach), that would most of the time be great pole > Giant Thresher > Thresher > cryptic > Mancatcher. Because Pride's physical damage is so utterly bad though, that becomes a fair bit less important.
If you wish to still maximize your merc's leech (which is phys only), you would still go for the highest raw dps base for said merc (I wouldn't trade my GP for anything - but I also use slightly different merc gear in general so take that with a grain of salt) - but know that the difference you achieve there is VERY minor at best. If you're looking to maximize his damage output however, you're likely best off with a Mancatcher in just a few days, simply because it is faster than any pole base and hence maximizes your utilization of Pride's elemental damage.
Thanks for reminding me about Spear bases! I actually have an Eth 4 socket Mancatcher sitting on a mule
Just be sure to wait until after 2.4 hits and someone confirms the changes with an Insight bow or something..Pride is unnecessarily expensive to waste on a delayed/failed patch change.
Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago
[...]
Ultimately, it boils down to a matter of priorities, preferences and playstyle (the latter typically dictating the first two). Bowzons will die on either side of that Faith vs. Windforce hill. I just happen to be firmly planted on the WF side of it.
[...]
Let's just kill some more bowzons on both sides - theorycraft me a build where WF can perform better than Faith ;D
You can adjust the enemy, change it to Baal, doesn't matter, Faith always comes out on top for Strafe and Multiple Shot. Only Guided Arrow seems stronger with WF. Take Amp Dmg into account, so no changing to Highlord's allowed .
edit: don't know if damage calculations on maxroll are already reliable for 2.4
So, as I said I am on the Faith side of the hill, so my allegiance is stated, but two things to keep in mind for this debate are two things that the numbers really don't tell you:
1. Is it fun?
2. Does it matter?
Regarding "is it fun?", I have to say there is a certain charm to WF. Knocking folks around like billiard balls was great. I also loved getting my Valkyrie into a pocket of cows. I could use the WF and Strafe to create a bubble around her that the cows couldn't get past.
Regarding, "Does it matter?", obviously very subjective. What I mean by that is, are the differences notable enough to make a difference in game play? I see people paying an extra HR for an extra % of LL on a BK ring, or Res on a Mara's. Does that really matter in the game? Maybe, maybe not. So Faith can do an extra bit of damage. Does it matter if you are still killing everything in 1 or 2 hits with a WF? Yes, because the extra damage makes the boss battle easier. Unless there is a big "fun factor" for the player.
Now, obviously for a PvP focused set up, fun is irrelevant and every point matters, so the above is not applicable. Not to sound harsh, but a build that is "fun" but not effective in PvP is not really fun and every point, %, and frame matters because if you aren't optimizing them, someone else is. And they want to kill you.
Overall, we are fortunate on the bowazon camp that we actually have this debate. A lot of the other classes are "Runeword or get out" for their end game. We have a godly runeword, and a unique that is actually, maybe subjectively, able to keep up.
TL;DR: Raw numbers are what they are, but some people are looking at beyond the numbers.
Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago
[...]
Ultimately, it boils down to a matter of priorities, preferences and playstyle (the latter typically dictating the first two). Bowzons will die on either side of that Faith vs. Windforce hill. I just happen to be firmly planted on the WF side of it.
[...]
Let's just kill some more bowzons on both sides - theorycraft me a build where WF can perform better than Faith ;D
You can adjust the enemy, change it to Baal, doesn't matter, Faith always comes out on top for Strafe and Multiple Shot. Only Guided Arrow seems stronger with WF. Take Amp Dmg into account, so no changing to Highlord's allowed .
edit: don't know if damage calculations on maxroll are already reliable for 2.4
Just for the hell of it...sure:
Left = your linked build
Middle = my current build, nerfed to hell and back to better match yours and your added requirements (literally no necklace equipped there, resulting in among other things a loss of attack frame on everything, and 0 in dex beyond minimum requirements since you went for some life..adding just a little bit into dex leaves it higher across all attacks while still keeping more life and not using a necklace)
Right = my current build as I actually play it, both now and post 2.4 (a bit less raw dmg than you'd have with amp up but since Atma's is far (FAR) from 100% proc chance, it still performs significantly better on average) - mind you, some raw dmg is sacrificed for other bits that aren't visible here.
Disclaimers:
- No, the maxroll calculations for 2.4 are not fully correct. Strafe for example still seems to have the 75% penalty applied.
- Yes, I dare say my build is the best (or damn close to it) for my personal playstyle and Ama use but no, it will not be the best for everyone/for every purpose/in every situation. Just like WF in general is the best possible choice for me but not for everyone/every purpose.
- Yes, I left out the actual gear and censored most parts of the stats screenshot that give it away on purpose. Flat copying of builds only leads to unnecessarily bad performance due to mismatch between build and playstyle and whatnot...copy/paste = bad juju.
--
WF largely wins (when it does) due to the massive base damage it offers by comparison. Because of that, it is far better in scenarios where you add more ED. For example, if you take your own build and change only the bow to WF and then only shift your stats around to str for equip and the rest in dex (=more ED), then you already get WF beating Faith on Strafe as well.
If you then also change your target to a Fallen (i.e. Demon so that your LoH kicks in), WF wins across the board in your own build, by a very clear margin. So that's just one of the examples where area (-> monster type) can make a massive difference in terms of which one wins out.
That's why, depending on your playstyle/build goals (defensive vs. glass cannon) and your main use (-> area -> monster type -> different stats because of it), Faith will sometimes beat WF and WF will beat Faith in other cases. You can always theorycraft a winning build for either side, solely by adjusting those factors, without touching any of the gear beyond obviously the bow itself.
Leaker416 wrote: 2 years ago
So, as I said I am on the Faith side of the hill, so my allegiance is stated, but two things to keep in mind for this debate are two things that the numbers really don't tell you:
1. Is it fun?
I see a Demon Limb buff as there is no other way to get that high AR otherwise.
Are you running without CtA specifically to get the extra AR you wouldn't need with Faith? I guess it would make sense to make a glass cannon then, since the difference between 600 life and 800 life is marginal.
I just don't see it when you are bravely advocating for WF and making concessions in other departments at the same time to "make it work". Such play style is hardly to everyone's taste to advocate for WF over Faith in general sense.
This brings me to this just being semantics whether one's personal style is better than someone else's (it's not). I can see the fun/power factor in yours but for most others they'd go with Faith, in the general approach to relaxed power play, if price was not a factor. After all a perfect Windforce is ~Vex, a perfect Faith is 6 Ber, perfect superior just sold for 20.
TL;DR Windforce is perfectly fine on its own. Faith allows for more relaxed grind. Windforce allows for specialized tweaking to maximize dmg potential. Price factor can play a big role in acquisition.
If you get a PM offer, post it in the trade. Promote healthy competition instead of settling for less.
Queegon wrote: 2 years ago
I see a Demon Limb buff as there is no other way to get that high AR otherwise.
Are you running without CtA specifically to get the extra AR you wouldn't need with Faith? I guess it would make sense to make a glass cannon then, since the difference between 600 life and 800 life is marginal.
I just don't see it when you are bravely advocating for WF and making concessions in other departments at the same time to "make it work". Such play style is hardly to everyone's taste to advocate for WF over Faith in general sense.
This brings me to this just being semantics whether one's personal style is better than someone else's (it's not). I can see the fun/power factor in yours but for most others they'd go with Faith, in the general approach to relaxed power play, if price was not a factor. After all a perfect Windforce is ~Vex, a perfect Faith is 6 Ber, perfect superior just sold for 20.
TL;DR Windforce is perfectly fine on its own. Faith allows for more relaxed grind. Windforce allows for specialized tweaking to maximize dmg potential. Price factor can play a big role in acquisition.
I do run without CTA but that's actually not to buff up. That's solely because my amazon happens to be my gamble char as well. So the concessions I actually make with her work against performance because she keeps a Gheed's and an Edge off-weapon equipped at all times, due to my being too lazy to move them around when needed.
There's other ways to get AR up. Without switching things in and out or pre-buffing or any of that (all of which I'm too lazy for anyways). Dex alone already works wonders for that, albeit not the only thing at play.
I fully agree on the "relaxed" factor though. Hence my pointing out that what I do isn't right for everyone. I want my Zon to be a fragile little glass cannon (hell, she's the only char of mine that can actually die..she typically doesn't..but at least there's an actual risk with her in case of messing up). Keeps her interesting to me. For relaxed grinding, I have plenty of other chars as is. Doesn't get much more relaxed than a trapsin or post-patch summon druid or the like after all.
Besides, I'm not advocating for WF in a general sense/for everyone's taste. In fact, I repeatedly very specifically stated it isn't for everyone and every situation. But for certain situations and playstyles (including mine), it is and will continue to be the vastly superior choice. Just like Faith is for others.
@Schnorki: Could you imagine sharing the link to that build of yours?
without haven't read everything in detail: Main difference for me is also that i don't like to build glass cannons that get blasted everytime a little undead puppet fucker gets too close. But of course i get that with knockback from WF it plays much safer (Giant Skull would be another source in favor of Faith for that though).
Mimic wrote: 2 years ago
Main difference for me is also that i don't like to build glass cannons that get blasted everytime a little undead puppet fucker gets too close
That alone is enough reason to go for a vita setup and hence more likely than not a Faith instead actually. :p
If a puppet gets to me, I blow up. No questions asked. Thing is..that's exactly why those puppets vs. my zon are my favorite mob in the game by now. They're the only thing that's actually a challenge. Well, excluding those once in a century ridiculous quad-enchantment insta-gib super uniques that wipe your entire party as soon as a java throws her Spear at them..but that's too rare to count.
There used to be vipers as well I guess but those got nerfed (well, fixed) so hard that that challenge, too is now gone.
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