Endgame attack rating values

Hey all!

I was playing with my barbarian char yesterday. While barbaring, jumping and spinning around, i've noticed that i have 14k attack rating with this char. I'm not totally end game (level 82) but that sounded to me as a really, really high value.

What should be the best/optimum attack rating value on an end game scenario? Is 14k too high, too low? I always play casters so i really don't have anything to compare.

Thanks a lot!

Attack rating optimum is when you get to 95% chance to hit where it's capped, and 17K isn't too high.

Hit chance % suffers diminishing returns as your attack rating increases (vs the same target), so beyond a certain amount it is more efficient to reduce enemies' defense instead. It takes a lot of AR to have 95% chance to hit without reducing enemy defense.

What's your hit chance % vs some random mob at 14k? You can check by hovering over the AR value after fighting the mob in question.

ShadowHeart wrote: 9 months ago

Hit chance % suffers diminishing returns as your attack rating increases (vs the same target), so beyond a certain amount it is more efficient to reduce enemies' defense instead. It takes a lot of AR to have 95% chance to hit without reducing enemy defense.

What's your hit chance % vs some random mob at 14k? You can check by hovering over the AR value after fighting the mob in question.

I didn't notice the % to hit on random monsters, i will be online later today and let you know. My biggest concerns is regarding bosses, super uniques etc. Usually when i fight bosses i try to keep it over 80%~ish.

How do you reduce bosses defense? With

Conviction?

luizgeo wrote: 9 months ago

How do you reduce bosses defense? With

Conviction?

There are a number of ways;

Paladin has

Conviction
Amazon has

Inner Sight
Barbarian has

Battle Cry
Assassin has

Cloak of Shadows

I might be forgetting something too

Not all of these work on bosses,

Cloak of Shadows doesn't for example, IIRC.

luizgeo wrote: 9 months ago

My biggest concerns is regarding bosses, super uniques etc. Usually when i fight bosses i try to keep it over 80%~ish.

Bosses have a lot more defense than regular monsters, so reducing enemy defense is even more efficient there.

I also forgot to mention that besides the aforementioned defense-reducing skills, you can also have properties on your equipment (usually on weapons) that ignores defense. While "Ignore Target Defense" (ensuring 95% chance to hit) doesn't work on bosses and elites, the "-X% Target Defense" properties do work against all targets including bosses. Some weapons have this inherently, but you can also slot an

Eth rune into a weapon

None of the defense reducing effects will be taken into account on the character screen's calculated chance to hit %, IIRC, so keep that in mind - i.e., if you have any such effects from skills or equipment, your effective chance to hit will be higher than listed in-game.

None of the defense reducing effects will be taken into account on the character screen's calculated chance to hit %, IIRC, so keep that in mind - i.e., if you have any such effects from skills or equipment, your effective chance to hit will be higher than listed in-game.

Therein lies the issue. If we can't trust the character screens calculations then how we trust that any of the modifiers are actually working, by how much, or if at all? It's become common knowledge the character screen is inaccurate, but for modifiers such as

Inner Sight and ignores target defense we only have numbers provided by the same people who oversee the character calculator or sites such as Maxroll to clue us in to their effectiveness. So by what means do they know how well their calculator or calculations are working? Did someone from Blizzard familiar with the game code tell it to them or provide them with mathematical formulas? I'm not trying to rock the boat but I do have a lot of unanswered questions. The numbers in the image were taken without my Pride carrying Might Merc.

mhlg wrote: 9 months ago

Therein lies the issue. If we can't trust the character screens calculations then how we trust that any of the modifiers are actually working, by how much, or if at all? It's become common knowledge the character screen is inaccurate, but for modifiers such as

Inner Sight and ignores target defense we only have numbers provided by the same people who oversee the character calculator or sites such as Maxroll to clue us in to their effectiveness. So by what means do they know how well their calculator or calculations are working? Did someone from Blizzard familiar with the game code tell it to them or provide them with mathematical formulas? I'm not trying to rock the boat but I do have a lot of unanswered questions. The numbers in the image were taken without my Pride carrying Might Merc.

The hit chance formula has been published on

Arreat Summit for at least 2 decades, it's not exactly a secret, and it's that exact formula that all the sites use as far as I know.

https://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/b ... ters.shtml

Blizzard wrote:

Chance to Hit: 100 * AR / (AR + DR) * 2 * alvl / (alvl + dlvl)

where AR = Attack Rating of Attacker; DR = Defense Rating of

Defender; alvl = Level of Attacker; dlvl = Level of

Defender.

...

Melee attacks will never have less than 5% or more than 95% chance to hit.

DR is the defense rating after all the "hidden" penalties from skills/gear. "Ignore Target Defense" simply sets this to 0. Level is still a factor, so fighting a monster much higher level than yourself means you still have a <95% chance to hit.

It's trivial to calculate the effective chance to hit with this, using a specific monster's level and defense values.

And if you don't believe that it works as intended, the formula itself or the different bonuses, you can orchestrate controlled tests

ShadowHeart wrote: 9 months ago

he hit chance formula has been published on

Arreat Summit for at least 2 decades, it's not exactly a secret, and it's that exact formula that all the sites use as far as I know.

I've seen the formula before but I'm still somewhat skeptical of it, and things have changed a lot over the lasts 20 years. Since then many things have been repeatedly buffed and nerfed again and again. I remember 20 years ago fighting my way through the

Plains of Despair with my

Frozen Orb Sorc, when at the top of my screen I was notified that there was an update in progress. Remember when updates were live? The update nerfed the cast rate of

Frozen Orb because the frames were supposedly causing lag. Or at least that was the excuse from Blizzard at the time. I suppose we have to go with what we have and expect that it's mostly correct.

mhlg wrote: 9 months ago

I've seen the formula before but I'm still somewhat skeptical of it, and things have changed a lot over the lasts 20 years. Since then many things have been repeatedly buffed and nerfed again and again. I remember 20 years ago fighting my way through the

Plains of Despair with my

Frozen Orb Sorc, when at the top of my screen I was notified that there was an update in progress. The update nerfed the cast rate of

Frozen Orb because the frames were supposedly causing lag. Or at least that was the excuse from Blizzard at the time. I suppose we have to go with what we have and expect that it's mostly correct.

I'm not saying that it's impossible that it has changed behind the scenes since then, but there are plenty of smart people in the community who have broken down game mechanics through meticulous testing (Warren with his IAS calculator, and our own members WarTheory and Schnorki, are some that come to mind, there are plenty more), I'm sure some of them would have found out if it was inaccurate. But I most certainly couldn't tell you if it was

ShadowHeart wrote: 9 months ago

luizgeo wrote: 9 months ago

My biggest concerns is regarding bosses, super uniques etc. Usually when i fight bosses i try to keep it over 80%~ish.

Bosses have a lot more defense than regular monsters, so reducing enemy defense is even more efficient there.

I also forgot to mention that besides the aforementioned defense-reducing skills, you can also have properties on your equipment (usually on weapons) that ignores defense. While "Ignore Target Defense" (ensuring 95% chance to hit) doesn't work on bosses and elites, the "-X% Target Defense" properties do work against all targets including bosses. Some weapons have this inherently, but you can also slot an

Eth rune into a weapon

None of the defense reducing effects will be taken into account on the character screen's calculated chance to hit %, IIRC, so keep that in mind - i.e., if you have any such effects from skills or equipment, your effective chance to hit will be higher than listed in-game.

I will keep an eye on those! Thanks!

I'm curious on what gear you're using to get 14k AR on a barb.

I wouldn't say that is necessarily to much (in a vacuum) but it might be if you’ve compromised a lot on gear-choices to get there.
I’m playing Barb (

Frenzy) myself this ladder and I’m at 8700 AR, and as far as I can tell I’m using the “standard” high-AR pieces (Arreat’s Face and 2x

Raven Frost) that boost AR without compromising other stats much. I’m hard pressed to see how to reach 14k without compromising to much (Like giving up an Amulet slot for Angelic).
-Also I don’t really feel I need more AR. I’m using Grief for both “Ignore defense” and “reduce defense” on bosses, and 8700 feels just fine.

Admittedly I haven’t stacked the inventory with the traditional max-damage/ar/life charms (nor done that math on what I’d reach if I did), so that could be it off course, but I’m curious on how you reach 14k?

Goggen wrote: 9 months ago

I'm curious on what gear you're using to get 14k AR on a barb.

I wouldn't say that is necessarily to much (in a vacuum) but it might be if you’ve compromised a lot on gear-choices to get there.
I’m playing Barb (

Frenzy) myself this ladder and I’m at 8700 AR, and as far as I can tell I’m using the “standard” high-AR pieces (Arreat’s Face and 2x

Raven Frost) that boost AR without compromising other stats much. I’m hard pressed to see how to reach 14k without compromising to much (Like giving up an Amulet slot for Angelic).
-Also I don’t really feel I need more AR. I’m using Grief for both “Ignore defense” and “reduce defense” on bosses, and 8700 feels just fine.

Admittedly I haven’t stacked the inventory with the traditional max-damage/ar/life charms (nor done that math on what I’d reach if I did), so that could be it off course, but I’m curious on how you reach 14k?

I'm using full Immortal King's set and a

Atma's Scarab as a necklace. I guess im using a

Raven Frost with probably 150~ish AR and a dual leech rare ring with less than 100 AR (I don't remember the values right now on my head). I have a couple of grand charms with 60~80 AR and a combat skills skiller.

Regarding my skills, i have 20

Mace Mastery, 20

Whirlwind and almost 20

Concentrate. I have a low barbarian torch and a mid range anni. 120 hard points in Dexterity, i guess its over 200 with charms and gear.

I will make a print later today to be exact, but its something around that.

Goggen wrote: 9 months ago

I'm curious on what gear you're using to get 14k AR on a barb.

I wouldn't say that is necessarily to much (in a vacuum) but it might be if you’ve compromised a lot on gear-choices to get there.
I’m playing Barb (

Frenzy) myself this ladder and I’m at 8700 AR, and as far as I can tell I’m using the “standard” high-AR pieces (Arreat’s Face and 2x

Raven Frost) that boost AR without compromising other stats much. I’m hard pressed to see how to reach 14k without compromising to much (Like giving up an Amulet slot for Angelic).
-Also I don’t really feel I need more AR. I’m using Grief for both “Ignore defense” and “reduce defense” on bosses, and 8700 feels just fine.

Admittedly I haven’t stacked the inventory with the traditional max-damage/ar/life charms (nor done that math on what I’d reach if I did), so that could be it off course, but I’m curious on how you reach 14k?

My gear (

Whirlwind: ~11k AR, forgot to include it in the print). The rings are 176 + 120 AR.

I that case I would probably say yes, I think 14k AR is too much. In my opinion you've compormised on to many other goodies to get there.

I would try to make some gear-changes. Breaking a set can be a bit hard, but I'm not a big fan of full IK. Mainly I think the weapon just has way to low damage (200% ed on a regular base isn't great for endgame).
What you go for will depend a bit on how wealthy you are, but Oath is a cheap option that can get you about 300% ed in an etheral base. A low Arreat's and Duress or Gloom are other good cheap options for what I consider the weakest parts of IK-set. IK

Boots and gloves are quite good pieces, and the

Belt is ok when combined with the

Boots and gloves.

I would also probably change the hard points in dexterity for vitality.

Goggen wrote: 9 months ago

I that case I would probably say yes, I think 14k AR is too much. In my opinion you've compormised on to many other goodies to get there.

I would try to make some gear-changes. Breaking a set can be a bit hard, but I'm not a big fan of full IK. Mainly I think the weapon just has way to low damage (200% ed on a regular base isn't great for endgame).
What you go for will depend a bit on how wealthy you are, but Oath is a cheap option that can get you about 300% ed in an etheral base. A low Arreat's and Duress or Gloom are other good cheap options for what I consider the weakest parts of IK-set. IK

Boots and gloves are quite good pieces, and the

Belt is ok when combined with the

Boots and gloves.

I would also probably change the hard points in dexterity for vitality.

Yeah, i was using a 3-part immortals (

Boots + gloves +

Belt), arreats, an Enigma and a Breath of the Dying on a ethereal

Giant Thresher.

I took the BOTD to my official Fury Druid and the Enigma bounces between my chars. The arreat went to my "official"

Frenzy barbarian (that actually uses Oath + Grief).

This char is just a mule that i use to farm runes and gems, it does not need to be an efficient uber killer. I like to experiment builds and gear combinations on these mules i have, so i dont need to respec or create other chars. (the name of the char is mula_gemas, portuguese for gem mule)

In the future i will probably make another BOTD or even Death (maybe on a

Mace class base, so i dont need to respec) and Fortitude on a

Sacred Armor or

Hellforge Plate (my favorite designs - you need to look nice to fight primes, am i right?). I'm really poor right now, so no new gear for a while lol.

As you suggested, i will probably keep the 3 piece immortal combination, they are really nice (attack speed, defense etc). Maybe keep the helmet (as it has 2 sockets and decent stats) and use another armor and weapon. I dont know, lets see how those runes will drop lol. Thanks a lot for the tips!

for comparison-
my lvl 92 ww barb 5800 ar 115 dex = 80% chance to hit council

I skimmed through the thread, and couldn't find it mentioned. Your level and monster level matters too when it comes to hit chance. Being higher level increases chance to hit.