Did you perform the test? Because being able to run anything in Hell, especially in a lower player count, isn't the point. It's about getting the full damage that was advertised and promised in the 2.4 patch notes.
There's no excusing dumpster fire software development practices. Lying about patch changes as a consequence of negligence is still lying, and this calls into question what other patch changes are complete rubbish and not as advertised.
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I did watch the video and I noted that he was using some pretty low level stuff. About a week ago or so when I was just in Act4 and level 70 something, I joined a group of 5 to do a Chaos run. A Barbarian went to run The River of Fire to get to the Sanctuary and then send back a portal. He got his butt kicked so I took on the mob that took him down. He returned to recover his body, but I was completely surround by a large mob of those little beige colored lizardy spawners. I just kept firing and leeching until the entire mob was gone, and the other player recovered his body. I don't just play alone. I will watch the video again. I appreciate when people find and expose flaws, but I'm just not seeing them. I report back tomorrow.
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I was wearing Mist, my merc had Faith (my current setup)
obrazek.png
I decided to do a quick Travincal run to test the Mist. I then took a look at my attack rating and chance to hit, and then took a screenshot. As you can see I'm approaching 95% which is as good as it gets. So from here my focus will be on adding more Dexterity to increase damage.
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As for the video, Bowa has to test with weaker gear or else he'd 1-shot everything in the Blood Moor. That's the whole point of performing the tests the way he did, which is to minimize the variables, just like how using a 5x Lo bow ensured that all hits are critical so he wouldn't be inadvertently comparing a critical vs. a non-critical hit.
The gear's damage potential isn't relevant. Damage is damage, and according to the video, Strafearrows aren't doing the same amount of damage as normal arrows. Nobody uses normal arrows past Normal difficulty, so all the other stuff about how quickly you see monsters go down in Hell difficulty while cruising on Strafe is not scientific nor pertinent to this issue.
I could go on for paragraphs about how much better my 2.4 triple-aura bowazon's Strafe is compared to my LoD M'avinazon's Strafe, but that doesn't mean she's dealing the correct amount of damage in accordance with the 2.4 patch notes' claim of Strafe's 75% damage penalty being revoked.
If you buy what's being sold as a 16 oz. beverage and you only get 12, you were lied to and deceived by false advertising.
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Snakecharmed wrote: 1 year ago
I look forward to what you find.
As for the video, Bowa has to test with weaker gear or else he'd 1-shot everything in the Blood Moor. That's the whole point of performing the tests the way he did, which is to minimize the variables, just like how using a 5x Lo bow ensured that all hits are critical so he wouldn't be inadvertently comparing a critical vs. a non-critical hit.
The gear doesn't matter. Damage is damage, and according to the video, Strafearrows aren't doing the same amount of damage as normal arrows. Nobody uses normal arrows past Normal difficulty, so all the other stuff about how quickly you see monsters go down in Hell difficulty while cruising on Strafe is not scientific nor pertinent to this issue.
I could go on for paragraphs about how much better my 2.4 triple-aura bowazon's Strafe is compared to my LoD M'avinazon's Strafe, but that doesn't mean she's dealing the correct amount of damage in accordance with the 2.4 patch notes' claim of Strafe's damage penalty being revoked.
With Strafe a single arrow is divided in up to 10 hits and then as you level it increases the damage per hit. So at a lower level the damage per hit is less than single shot. When you get it to level 20 then it is one to one with single shot, and then it continues to increase with each level. As I said I'll look it over again tomorrow. Just a thought. I've read quite a few websites filled with "experts" who post guides that in my view are okay but not optimal.
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You're interpreting that table incorrectly. The damage is a bonus on top of the normal arrow's damage, not a percentage of the normal arrow. If what you said was true, then a level 1 Strafe arrow would do 95% less damage than a normal arrow and that is clearly not the case.
The scenario you're describing is how Whirlwind functions. Take a look at the damage tables for that and you'll see the difference in how the data is represented.
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I used to ascribe to the new way of playing with just enough dex for gear then the rest for vitality. A few people brought up the point that a well geared bowazon kills everything far offscreen and therefore doesn't need to worry about health really. So when I ate my token I dropped my health down. Just enough to be 1000 after CTA. (how low can you go..)
I am very publicly known for multi shot over Strafe. However I never maxed out Strafe. It already did more damage than my multishot by a few thousands max so I didn't think maxing it would really make a difference. What's a few thousand extra damage going to do when it's already so high I thought. So after the token I maxed out Strafe.
So my dexterity was increased by 277 points, and my multishot is increased by 799 points on max damage, not a whole lot. Now the big thing for those not using Faith. My attack rating went from 8,817 to 17,058 a massive difference.
Lets look at Strafe's increase after being maxed and then the extra damage boost from dex. An increase of 1,336. Nothing to scoff at there! When I did my original video of Strafe vs multi shot, Strafe was already 2,205 damage higher than multishot so it being 3,541 higher I expect won't make much of a difference. But the original opinion of the video still stands. Both have a time and place, and if you prefer one over the other than use your preference! I will do some testing tomorrow to see if having the extra 1,000ish damage makes me appreciate Strafe.
My two cents on the OP question is if you want to use Faith and need the extra attack speed than nosferatu is the best, if you're not going for highest frames then Razortail is best, IMO. Boots is more interesting to me tbh. Rare Boots, war travs, vs gore. I personally use gore for the obvious bonuses. But I'll just add a few numbers for those wanting a comparison.
War Trav
Multi: 1,360-6,222
Guided: 1,977-9,100 Strafe: 1,984-9,137
In my opinion for such little damage gains I'd rather have all the benefits of gores.
The gear I used for this test was a GMB 13 fana Faith with +1 no ED on the bow, a 45 ias +101ED jeweled Helm with 5% mana leach, highlords, fort, Laying of Hands, Raven, nosferatu, gores, mid torch and anni, and an inventory full of max damage/AR charms. Merc has level 18 Concentration with level 19 might aura. No boast, just a baseline.
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Thanks for understanding.
I dont feel like I am missing a lot of Arrows with Strafe (if I did then my life leech wouldnt be instant and I would die quite a bit often).
Thanks for link to this youtube guy !
thats really great source of knowledges !
what I dont like - actually dont want my bowa to be is this (you cant do it all with this build - those souls would eat u alive real fast):
- so this particular test results means very little to me (ofc I can compare it to other runs with builds which were built in same way to see which do most dmg).
Because if u get more HP you get less AR, if u get resists, u get slower run speed, less dmg, less AR. You might even get from "decent kill speed" to "sometimes having troubles" - if u wanna have cow specialist, u go Dream pala or Dragon pala, or Dragon sorc or javazon. I mean yes cows are great to show dmg, but its like shooting at practise target. What I am interested is how it perform in real game play where enemy hits you and have higher chance of killing you. Cows are harmless to bowa.
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Snakecharmed wrote: 1 year ago
Because being able to run anything in Hell, especially in a lower player count, isn't the point.
- this is exactly point to me - this is how I play. Ofc if that character can do p8 then its bonus. if it cant and the build is fun to play I dont mind playing it, enjoying the build at p1. Will I go split MF @ p8 with this build? No.
My entire fun in this game is that I wanna have builds for every occassion. When I am sleepy and tired but I still wanna play the game? I go dmg Frenzy barb and hold right button on mouse - as long as he will be hitting he wont go down. Am I tired of murdering monsters with 'OP' dmg gear? I do some MF - FoHer, if I am tired of Teleport I take my other barb (also Frenzy) with 600MF to do pit runs (or whatever location). I even consider to use my old bowa for Faith (or Windforce) + Pride/might and my current ladder bowa for Mist + Faith.
Snakecharmed wrote: 1 year ago
If you buy what's being sold as a 16 oz. beverage and you only get 12, you were lied to and deceived by false advertising.
I agree with you. But those are the rules now. I hate when someone didnt delivered what was promised. But hey, what choices we have? Not to play game until (if) they fix it? Or just accept current rules and have fun with it?
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davme_mcreg wrote: 1 year ago
I used to ascribe to the new way of playing with just enough dex for gear then the rest for vitality. A few people brought up the point that a well geared bowazon kills everything far offscreen and therefore doesn't need to worry about health really. So when I ate my token I dropped my health down. Just enough to be 1000 after CTA. (how low can you go..)
I havent tried full vitality bowa yet. I hate how all characters has the same thing: enough str and dex to wear gear (with high anni and torch you dont even have to spent single point there with certain gear combination) and max vita.
I love bowa for not being one of those builds !
What are your own feelings about more dmg compare to max vita?
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davme_mcreg wrote: 1 year ago
I used to ascribe to the new way of playing with just enough dex for gear then the rest for vitality. A few people brought up the point that a well geared bowazon kills everything far offscreen and therefore doesn't need to worry about health really. So when I ate my token I dropped my health down. Just enough to be 1000 after CTA. (how low can you go..)
I havent tried full vitality bowa yet. I hate how all characters has the same thing: enough str and dex to wear gear (with high anni and torch you dont even have to spent single point there with certain gear combination) and max vita.
I love bowa for not being one of those builds !
What are your own feelings about more dmg compare to max vita?
Running full dex, barely over 600 life and not even bothering with a CtA on switch.
The only time I have ever missed more life is when in some pug and the incompetent teleporter opens a Baal TP next to 10 dolls that you zone into as they blow up but in that case, a few more life points still wouldn't save you so it doesn't really make a difference.
The bonkers damage on the other hand is just beautiful and ensures that short of that situation noted above, you simply don't get hit by anything as nothing ever comes close, making things so much safer yet again.
Given, I do keep all resistances capped but that's honestly more of a matter of Principle than something that's actually needed for a bowzon.
yeah. I go no vit and am at around 700 life. i only ever come close to dying when I am a bad bowa and run out of Arrows lol. I forget to pick them up! such a fun build and everyone should play how they want! not everyone wants to min max and thats ok.
Snakecharmed wrote: 1 year ago
You're interpreting that table incorrectly. The damage is a bonus on top of the normal arrow's damage, not a percentage of the normal arrow. If what you said was true, then a level 1 Strafe arrow would do 95% less damage than a normal arrow and that is clearly not the case.
The scenario you're describing is how Whirlwind functions. Take a look at the damage tables for that and you'll see the difference in how the data is represented.
Yes I see that, thanks for putting me straight. That being said, I am still dubious of the video and its results, but then I'm skeptical of a lot of things self-appointed experts are posting on the web and Youtube. I need to see raw technical data, the actual defects in the software code that supports the claims. Empiricism is important, it's how I decide on what does and what doesn't work, but it only goes so far in nailing down the finer technical points, and it doesn't point out the actual functional defects of the game software. Since this is Blizzard I'm certain a great number of defects exist. They seem to regularly regularly dick with the game, and a clue of when that is about to happen is when they announce something such as the magic find weekend.
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Snakecharmed wrote: 1 year ago
Because being able to run anything in Hell, especially in a lower player count, isn't the point.
- this is exactly point to me - this is how I play. Ofc if that character can do p8 then its bonus. if it cant and the build is fun to play I dont mind playing it, enjoying the build at p1. Will I go split MF @ p8 with this build? No.
My entire fun in this game is that I wanna have builds for every occassion. When I am sleepy and tired but I still wanna play the game? I go dmg Frenzy barb and hold right button on mouse - as long as he will be hitting he wont go down. Am I tired of murdering monsters with 'OP' dmg gear? I do some MF - FoHer, if I am tired of Teleport I take my other barb (also Frenzy) with 600MF to do pit runs (or whatever location). I even consider to use my old bowa for Faith (or Windforce) + Pride/might and my current ladder bowa for Mist + Faith.
I'm not talking about your personal motivation for playing. I'm talking about the ramifications of this developer/(lack of) QA cockup. You're not getting the damage from Strafe that was advertised. Saying that it doesn't affect your gameplay doesn't negate or dismiss the glaring oversight.
Now, if we're going to talk about personal motivation, then my goal is absolutely to have a bowazon that can split MF in p8 (and she generally can, but she can't cover much Ground in the span of a typical MF game due to mediocre p8 clear speed and mobility). Thus, damage output is very important to me especially when overall mobility is limited by not being able to use Enigma. I also have her planned out to level 97, and I haven't completely ruled out 99 either even though I'm not realistically targeting it.
Snakecharmed wrote: 1 year ago
If you buy what's being sold as a 16 oz. beverage and you only get 12, you were lied to and deceived by false advertising.
I agree with you. But those are the rules now. I hate when someone didnt delivered what was promised. But hey, what choices we have? Not to play game until (if) they fix it? Or just accept current rules and have fun with it?
Nobody is suggesting that you should stop playing until it's fixed. But it's bizarre to me that this is treated as if it's no big deal, because it is. If this idiotic oversight is fixed as it should be, then any Strafe user automatically gets a 33% damage buff and restores the skill's viability back to where it was before the nerf.
I can acknowledge that I am far more passionate about bad development practices because this is something I care about as a professional. What's especially aggravating in this case being on the other side of the fence is that I already thought ATVI development was utterly incompetent and not to be trusted with making new changes. Now they've proven that they don't even deliver on the changes that they say they made in writing. So now we also have a big trust issue and it reflects even worse on these bellends at ATVI than everything else they've screwed up already does.
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Snakecharmed wrote: 1 year ago
You're interpreting that table incorrectly. The damage is a bonus on top of the normal arrow's damage, not a percentage of the normal arrow. If what you said was true, then a level 1 Strafe arrow would do 95% less damage than a normal arrow and that is clearly not the case.
The scenario you're describing is how Whirlwind functions. Take a look at the damage tables for that and you'll see the difference in how the data is represented.
Yes I see that, thanks for putting me straight. That being said, I am still dubious of the video and its results, but then I'm skeptical of a lot of things self-appointed experts are posting on the web and Youtube. I need to see raw technical data, the actual defects in the software code that supports the claims. Empiricism is important, it's how I decide on what does and what doesn't work, but it only goes so far in nailing down the finer technical points, and it doesn't point out the actual functional defects of the game software. Since this is Blizzard I'm certain a great number of defects exist. They seem to regularly regularly dick with the game, and a clue of when that is about to happen is when they announce something such as the magic find weekend.
I think you are missing the point of bowas videos. literally everything he tested was already available knowledge from 20 plus years of people playing the game or self appointed experts as you called it lol. save for the new rune words and buffed skills/2.4 changes. Bowa was testing all these claims and purposed "best setups" for himself with some pretty great and accurate results. I very much understand an analytical approach as i am the same way. but in the science community pier review is very much a trusted thing. everything in bowas videos corroborates the findings and claims that you will find when looking back at old forum posts and guides. Solo offline with hero editor is a godsend for testing things your self or even theory crafting. So too my point finally if bowa says Strafe is bugged I believe him. he has no reason to lie about that or put his reputation on the line
mhlg wrote: 1 year ago
Yes I see that, thanks for putting me straight. That being said, I am still dubious of the video and its results, but then I'm skeptical of a lot of things self-appointed experts are posting on the web and Youtube. I need to see raw technical data, the actual defects in the software code that supports the claims. Empiricism is important, it's how I decide on what does and what doesn't work, but it only goes so far in nailing down the finer technical points, and it doesn't point out the actual functional defects of the game software. Since this is Blizzard I'm certain a great number of defects exist. They seem to regularly regularly dick with the game, and a clue of when that is about to happen is when they announce something such as the magic find weekend.
So let me ask you, what constitutes "raw technical data" in your book? Neither you nor I have access to the codebase. We couldn't see raw technical data with the sunder charm Find Item bug, but that was obviously a defect and you didn't need to be on the dev team to know that. Hell, the dev team themselves didn't know that considering how PTR is obviously a surrogate QA department for ATVI.
I tested the issue last night with a hero editor in SP. Level 1 Strafe, which has a small 5% damage bonus plus synergies, absolutely does less damage per arrow than a normal attack. I also limited the variables even further than Bowa did in the video: naked level 99 in Nightmare Blood Moor with 187 dex to carry the weapon so the chance to hit is 95%, no Critical Strike whatsoever, 3x SolMatriarchal Bow for 47-48 weapon damage to limit the variability of the damage, one point in Strafe and its necessary prerequisites, both normal and Strafe shots fired against a single monster so variable health between different monsters of the same type doesn't come into play.
I could post my video to drive the point home, but what's the point? I'm not interested in convincing skeptics because if you don't believe Bowa, what exactly am I going to do differently to make you think otherwise? I proved it to myself. Anyone who tests this for themselves can also plainly see this is not intended nor advertised behavior. So what else would you like to see? This?
I'll also say that I am a bit befuddled at how the initial responses to this issue in this thread have more or less been, "Well, I think it felt fine while I was playing and it deals enough damage for how I play." And that's what I've repeatedly said isn't the point. Hypothetically, let's say you're happy as a clam with what you think is 8000 damage per shot based on what you see on the character sheet and the patch notes. Well, if it turns out that you were actually getting 6000 and nothing had truly changed before and after patch 2.4, then:
You're being shortchanged, deceived, and lied to
You're owed a major damage buff that works to your benefit, which is especially meaningful for a subclass that has repeatedly been getting screwed since LoD
And against a dev team that has demonstrated as much buffoonery as this one has, as a player of a long-neglected subclass, you take and latch on to any win you can get, because you never know when the next advertised buff turns out to be a nerf. Ask Whirlwind barbs.
So for 2.4's phantom Strafe buff, they should be held accountable to deliver on the changes they promised in writing, or else what's the point of patch notes when they can get away with outright lying in them?
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Snakecharmed wrote: 1 year ago
You're interpreting that table incorrectly. The damage is a bonus on top of the normal arrow's damage, not a percentage of the normal arrow. If what you said was true, then a level 1 Strafe arrow would do 95% less damage than a normal arrow and that is clearly not the case.
The scenario you're describing is how Whirlwind functions. Take a look at the damage tables for that and you'll see the difference in how the data is represented.
Yes I see that, thanks for putting me straight. That being said, I am still dubious of the video and its results, but then I'm skeptical of a lot of things self-appointed experts are posting on the web and Youtube. I need to see raw technical data, the actual defects in the software code that supports the claims. Empiricism is important, it's how I decide on what does and what doesn't work, but it only goes so far in nailing down the finer technical points, and it doesn't point out the actual functional defects of the game software. Since this is Blizzard I'm certain a great number of defects exist. They seem to regularly regularly dick with the game, and a clue of when that is about to happen is when they announce something such as the magic find weekend.
I think you are missing the point of bowas videos. literally everything he tested was already available knowledge from 20 plus years of people playing the game or self appointed experts as you called it lol. save for the new rune words and buffed skills/2.4 changes. Bowa was testing all these claims and purposed "best setups" for himself with some pretty great and accurate results. I very much understand an analytical approach as i am the same way. but in the science community pier review is very much a trusted thing. everything in bowas videos corroborates the findings and claims that you will find when looking back at old forum posts and guides. Solo offline with hero editor is a godsend for testing things your self or even theory crafting. So too my point finally if bowa says Strafe is bugged I believe him. he has no reason to lie about that or put his reputation on the line
I'm also a 20 plus year veteran player. I began with Diablo 1, and then D2 before the release of the LOD. I remember the cries of foul when they nerfed the cast speed of Frozen Orb, and my first major runeword bow was a Ballista BOTD, which if I recall was the only 6 socket bow of the time. I've never been much for guides, but I do read up on what items do, and then consider how they might help me. I've always preferred to go the trial and error route, and I think I've had some pretty good success with my builds. When I hear the claims of "experts" then I want to know what the specific deficits in the code is and how it was obtained. Some of the info is put out by Blizzard but a lot of it is just guessing based on limited experimentation. If you apply the Scientific Theory to a test the first thing you have to do is eliminate any possible bias, and set up a series of experiments that places equal emphasis on trying to disprove a claim (hypothesis) as in proving it.
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The Flash wrote: 1 year ago
I havent tried full vitality bowa yet. I hate how all characters has the same thing: enough str and dex to wear gear (with high anni and torch you dont even have to spent single point there with certain gear combination) and max vita.
I love bowa for not being one of those builds !
What are your own feelings about more dmg compare to max vita?
Max vit bowa has a putrid AR and underwhelming damage. This subclass has always been about damage, especially when many bowazon players overlook her utility skills and/or have no idea how to use them.
I have 30 hard points in vitality and they weren't even necessary to be honest. 850+ life buffed by charms and resists are maxed, more out of principle rather than necessity like Schnorki said. Also no Call To Arms either.
Only a bad spawn point or portal poses a problem. For that, I stay well clear of the spawning area of Lord De Seis and let someone else take a hot portal first. Nothing else should touch you if you know what you're doing. If you use Windforce, that's less of a guideline and more of a rule. Decoy is for advance scouting and if people actually bothered reading the skill description for Slow Missiles (although maybe not on this site, because it's missing half of the skill's effects), maybe they wouldn't be so afraid of Burning Souls. It's hilarious to me when someone puts up a portal in a hot throne room and among those who enter, one of the few who survive is the freaking bowazon and I'm wondering WTF the rest of those guys were doing.
This is why it seems excessive to me that any bowazon even bothers with 1000 life and/or more than perhaps 50 hard points in vitality. Those stat points need to go towards dealing more damage considering what a lousy state physical damage characters are in compared to mages. A max roll critical strike corpse explosion that successfully hits from an Undead Stygian Doll is killing you anyway, and if they're getting that close to you in the first place, you're doing something wrong. You're a ranged attacker, so it would make sense to actually play as one.
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[/quote] A max roll critical strike corpse explosion that successfully hits from an Undead Stygian Doll is killing you anyway, and if they're getting that close to you in the first place, you're doing something wrong. You're a ranged attacker, so it would make sense to actually play as one.
[/quote]
That's not entirely true. I've tested this on my non ladder Zon and I've just completed a series of runs through the Durance of Hate on my Ladder Zon to purposefully get hit by Stygian Dolls. I did, and my Zon survied them all. What I've found is that if your total vitality including items, charms, and those provided by Alkor is at or slightly above 1090, you will survive a hit by a single mob of Stygian Dolls most of the time. It will drop your life near the bottom of the life ball, but you can survive. I've also survived corp explosion hits from Nihlathak. After a hit I quickly pipe a full rejuve in case there is a second wave. The best case scenario is to get them at a distance before they get to you, but that isn't always possible because they will pop out of an entrance ways just before you enter it, and you have not time to react.
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You're right. I had thought it was something like 1300 life, but I remembered incorrectly. This post shows a damage table that maxes out at 1026 for a crit from a unique or one of its minions.
I don't have a problem with them as a bowa though. Decoy works great for scouting them ahead, and the most effective way to deal with them charging at you is to simply not attack them and drop a Decoy behind you before you do turn around to attack them if you so choose. I still don't think they're worth accounting for in terms of spec'ing for HP. There are enough ways to deal with them that don't involve indiscriminately bullrushing the level and getting facerolled by them.
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