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kerph 278

RotW Americas PC
FerociousTerrier wrote: 6 hours ago
OR, Bind Demon should get a synergy that isn't "increase chance to bind". If Death Mark had a useful synergy, you would have to decide between dumping into Miasma Bolt for stronger chains or DM for stronger demon.


This!

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kerph wrote: 6 hours ago
This!
Blood Boil needs a strong demon without requiring more synergies to max out. I think it's not really workable as stated. Blood Boil builds don't have extra points to beef up demons to back where they were before.
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kerph 278

RotW Americas PC
departure wrote: 5 hours ago
Blood Boil needs a strong demon without requiring more synergies to max out. I think it's not really workable as stated. Blood Boil builds don't have extra points to beef up demons to back where they were before.
I thought all Blood Boil needed was a big enough health pool? Demon damage is a nice bonus but, isn't it primarily from Blood Boil itself anyway in that build? (I assumed the synergy would be for Bind Demon's damage)

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departure wrote: 6 hours ago
FerociousTerrier wrote: 6 hours ago
OR, Bind Demon should get a synergy that isn't "increase chance to bind". If Death Mark had a useful synergy, you would have to decide between dumping into Miasma Bolt for stronger chains or DM for stronger demon.
Yea maybe. Maybe I should be more careful with my critique.

I'm realizing that the build I'm comparing this against is actually Blood Boil, not pure summon. Blood Boil (being in the demon tree) seems to be the build that you're actually looking to use with a potentially maxed out demon. And from that perspective, it requires all the points and synergies already. When I say Tainted is better than bound demon, I should be saying that a Tainted Blood Boil build is better than a bound demon Blood Boil build. It's on me for not being clear enough about that.

I think I'm still in the camp that miasma should at least require a full synergy with entropy to get to its current levels. At least. In my opinion the current levels would still need to be nerfed a little.
You're right, I wasn't thinking from the Miasma perspective. 31 points for an insanely powerful build is perhaps too low investment. How does that compare with top tier paladin and amazon builds (neither of which I have played or plan to play)? For sorcs, Meteor/blizz bulds have 5 maxed skills for full synergy, and Nova, while only being three skills, basically requires maxing and synergizing Energy Shield for defense, so in these cases Miasma + Superdemon for 5 max skills does seem overkill (noting that warlock also gets major defense skills for just a couple of points). Perhaps entropy should increase the # of chains for every 2 points so that maxing entropy gives you current level of chains?

Honestly, I think the Bind Demon affixes should come with hard points instead of soft points, so you need to max Bind Demon to get an aura. That would reduce the OPness of going full fire/eldrich/miasma builds and one point in Bind Demon + skillers *at time of binding* to get your free-ish superdemon (sure, no uniques or superuniques, but you still get a really good demon!).

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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kerph wrote: 5 hours ago
I thought all Blood Boil needed was a big enough health pool? Demon damage is a nice bonus but, isn't it primarily from Blood Boil itself anyway in that build? (I assumed the synergy would be for Bind Demon's damage)
Blood Boil is not great in and of itself. For example, if you went with a goat Blood Boil build, I think you'd find that it was fairly underpowered. Currently the strongest Blood Boil build is Tainted+ Blood Boil - a situation which irritates me due to the fact that it's not as interesting or fun as blind demon + Blood Boil. The Blood Boil build + summon situation runs out of points before it runs out of power. So there aren't spare points to go around. So a Death Mark synergy would be fairly inaccessible to the Blood Boil build.

If Bind Demon came with more bonses from hard points as @FerociousTerrier mentions, AND misasma required entropy to get all the chains as @FerociousTerrier mentions, then a miasma build is not able to access Bind Demon power that a Blood Boil + Bind Demon build would naturally access. And this I think solves the problem. So Bind Demon needs something of a buff from hard Bind Demon points, and miasma needs to depend on entropy more. I think this would put us in a much better place and put Blood Boil + demon back on top of the Blood Boil ladder.

Anyway none of that is actually going to happen of course. But I think this is where my preference would be for sorting out what's happening here.
7
User avatar

kerph 278

RotW Americas PC
departure wrote: 4 hours ago
Blood Boil is not great in and of itself. For example, if you went with a goat Blood Boil build, I think you'd find that it was fairly underpowered. Currently the strongest Blood Boil build is Tainted+ Blood Boil - a situation which irritates me due to the fact that it's not as interesting or fun as blind demon + Blood Boil. The Blood Boil build + summon situation runs out of points before it runs out of power. So there aren't spare points to go around. So a Death Mark synergy would be fairly inaccessible to the Blood Boil build.

If Bind Demon came with more bonses from hard points as @FerociousTerrier mentions, AND misasma required entropy to get all the chains as @FerociousTerrier mentions, then a miasma build is not able to access Bind Demon power that a Blood Boil + Bind Demon build would naturally access. And this I think solves the problem. So Bind Demon needs something of a buff from hard Bind Demon points, and miasma needs to depend on entropy more. I think this would put us in a much better place and put Blood Boil + demon back on top of the Blood Boil ladder.
Ah i get that for sure

As a non- Blood Boil summon player i'm really disappointed that it only takes 40 points investment to get your bind as powerful as it can be. And now post-nerf with that power level sitting fairly low. I think a synergy, buff to Sigil Lethargy, even changing defilers to benefit more from additional points... Anything would go a long way to make it more viable as a standalone build vs limited to just a companion for miasma, boil, echoing etc

Maybe Blood Boil itself could use a buff by your description (i've never played it honestly) to rely less on Bind Demon then? Or, maybe sharper damage scaling on Bind Demon and Demonic Mastery (thus also incentivizing Ars Tor'Baalos a bit more), +changing defiler scaling to incentivise 20 hard points, + a curse proc chance synergy on Death Mark maybe? Since Blood Boil (iirc) is just fire damage i don't think it would be too devastating to miss out on while being a massive quality of life improvement for Bind Demon-only builds

1000% agree that Enhanced Entropy just stopping at 20 soft points is really weird. I can't think of any other skill in the game that does that??

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Schnorki 5580Moderator

RotW PC
Wall of text inc... :P

Chains shouldn't require 19 more skill points to get to the current level imo. Chains simply shouldn't get to the current level. Ever.

Bolt is fine as is since it starts out a decent early to mid skill and then drops off a bit later on (as most lvl 1 skills do).
Abyss is also fairly solid as is, offering pretty good performance but nothing that really stand out as "overkill" compared to other solid builds.
Chains, no matter how many skill points you throw at it, should simply not do anywhere near as much dmg as it does. Either cut the max chains to 5-7 or drop the DPS by 30-50%, whichever. Yes, that is a lot but it honestly feels justified. As is, since you can now at least freely pre-cast it through your summons, chains in many situations effectively invalidates things like Abyss as you'll just stick to chaining on any Baal wave, Herald spawn, dia spawn or really anything where you can pre-cast. And if you have Enigma, even for many sturdier packs that you can't pre-cast for (drop a few chains -> tele across -> dead pack faster than Abyss would do it). Esp. on P8.

Setting aside the insanity that is "chains when they work" though, I'd actually argue that being able to combine a Chaos build with a decent bound demon is actually a pretty cool idea. It does work for both, fire and magic Chaos as their skill point invest is nearly identical (63 fire, 64 magic since you still want the sigils) and it gives you a solid caster/minion combo build with actual solid but not completely OP (again, ignoring chains) performance on both fronts. That is a fairly unique and fun thing to have and imo a definite plus for warlock design. Also something that further differentiates the trees as eldritch tends to require far more skill points, meaning they can't get a proper demon up. So basically, you get "eldritch = self-sufficient lock, Chaos = caster/minion hybrid, demon = minion focus". I'd let that stand as an overall plus and interesting differentiator in lock design/balancing.

That said, looking specifically at the demon tree, the overall performance of bind is fine atm imo and even without any Blood Boil usage it tears through P8 TZ96. And unless you exclusively stick to "no fire immunes!" zones, I honestly don't get the "terrible compared to Tainted" criticism. A proper bound demon with a couple defilers to spread the love is crazy good and on average clears many a place faster than Tainted do. At least for zones that also include fire immunes, such as CS runs, where Tainted slow down pretty hard.
I'd argue that for a full demon build, bind is now pretty close to where it should be.

Tainted by comparison are kind of in the same boat chains were in pre-patch (and still are to a far lesser extent, thanks to the target-dmg-bug still being a thing):
- They're situationally rather OP (for chains that was "when they worked and didn't get blocked", for Tainted it simply generalizes to "when target isn't immune/very highly resistant to fire").
- They're situationally pretty crap (for chains that was "whenever they didn't work or got blocked", for Tainted whenever the target is fire immune/very high res).
- Ultimately, both add up to "yeah, it evens out".
But "OP or crap" is kind of trash and un-fun binary design I dare say. So there should be fixes to remove the "crap" side of it, accompanied by balancing to tone down the OP side of it so it still ends up somewhat balanced. For chains, they now got mostly fixed (target bug still remains but less so) so should get nerfed to drop the OP side of it. And for Tainted (and any other summon for that matter), blizz really should make minus res from gear work and be inherited by all summons/minions to remove the "crap vs. immunes" side (since even Conviction on your merc doesn't help all that much when penalized) and then when doing that also nerf Tainted dmg significantly to equally tone down the OP side of it and end up somewhat balanced (other summons should still get the -res treatment but don't really need toning down to go with it, seeing how druids/necs just kinda suck across the board in that regard and still wouldn't exactly be great, even with -res working).

Though there might be something to be said for e.g. nerfing Bind Demon health (noticeably) from what it is now but in turn making Blood Oath work with it. Ideally perhaps hard points specifically so +skill gear doesn't overrule the idea behind it. Additionally, perhaps make the dmg transfer on Blood Oath more linear (-> far lower at lower levels).
A proper demon build would have Blood Oath maxed for Blood Boil and other demons anyways, meaning for them it'd be no change (or perhaps even a slight buff to make things like ubers a tad more bind-focus friendly).
A Chaos build on the other hand will still need their points in bind and at minimum 5 or 10 in mastery so they simply can't get Blood Oath anywhere near a demon build's level, meaning they'd end up with a bound demon that is still a solid choice to preserve the hybrid character but that would require a bit more babysitting than a demon build version and that also wouldn't act like a mindless absorb-shield to the same degree since the demon would not only be more fragile as already pointed out but it'd also transfer less of the dmg taken to it.
Alternatively, make the Death Mark crushing blow synergy not only work for goats but also for bound demons. Again gives demon builds something more valuable especially for ubers and comparable while leaving a Chaos hybrid short on skill points to really benefit from it.
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