Trying to understand how poison damage gets calculated, re: equipment that reduces poison resistances and increases poison skill damage.
For example, when biting with Rabies, I understand that you want as high skill as possible (e.g., Plague Bearer+5 Rabies / Spirit shield), but then you want to swap to your alt set that includes weapons like Death's Web and Bile/psn facet shield.
Is it that the Bite sets the # poison damage / X seconds, and then each tick takes into account the -psn res?
When does +psn skill damage come into play? At the time of the Rabies bite? Or for each tick?
Would you want the Bile jewel in the Plague Bearer for the Rabies bite or in the weapon/shield swap? If +psn damage applies at time of Bite, and -res at time of ticks, presumably you'd want a full set of psn jewels in both weapon/shield swaps. No?
While we are at it, does the 451 psn dam charms apply to Rabies bites or just weapon attacks? And if the latter, would it apply to Fury attacks?
Thanks!
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Trying to understand how poison damage gets calculated, re: equipment that reduces poison resistances and increases poison skill damage.
For example, when biting with Rabies, I understand that you want as high skill as possible (e.g., Plague Bearer+5 Rabies / Spirit shield), but then you want to swap to your alt set that includes weapons like Death's Web and Bile/psn facet shield.
Is it that the Bite sets the # poison damage / X seconds, and then each tick takes into account the -psn res?
When does +psn skill damage come into play? At the time of the Rabies bite? Or for each tick?
Would you want the Bile jewel in the Plague Bearer for the Rabies bite or in the weapon/shield swap? If +psn damage applies at time of Bite, and -res at time of ticks, presumably you'd want a full set of psn jewels in both weapon/shield swaps. No?
While we are at it, does the 451 psn dam charms apply to Rabies bites or just weapon attacks? And if the latter, would it apply to Fury attacks?
Thanks!
For example, when biting with Rabies, I understand that you want as high skill as possible (e.g., Plague Bearer+5 Rabies / Spirit shield), but then you want to swap to your alt set that includes weapons like Death's Web and Bile/psn facet shield.
Is it that the Bite sets the # poison damage / X seconds, and then each tick takes into account the -psn res?
When does +psn skill damage come into play? At the time of the Rabies bite? Or for each tick?
Would you want the Bile jewel in the Plague Bearer for the Rabies bite or in the weapon/shield swap? If +psn damage applies at time of Bite, and -res at time of ticks, presumably you'd want a full set of psn jewels in both weapon/shield swaps. No?
While we are at it, does the 451 psn dam charms apply to Rabies bites or just weapon attacks? And if the latter, would it apply to Fury attacks?
Thanks!
Can be used to make Runewords:
this is the Pandora box you want to open. i use this guide here for poison:
https://maxroll.gg/d2/resources/poison-damage
I think the +% skill damage is applied initially, to be more precise, when the bit rate is calculated. but the - poison res is applied per frame.
https://maxroll.gg/d2/resources/poison-damage
I think the +% skill damage is applied initially, to be more precise, when the bit rate is calculated. but the - poison res is applied per frame.
Things I am just learning:
https://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/ind ... ill_Damage
https://maxroll.gg/d2/resources/poison-damage
Poison damage from multiple sources is very complicated.
I'm also leanring that Venom from Grief or Treachery can do strange things to poison skills and potentially overwrite an ongoing poisoning. SMH. My plan was Rabies/Fury druid swapping to Grief/Facet shield after Bite, but Grief (and barb Merc was going to have Grief + Plague, too) might overwrite the Rabies...
https://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/ind ... ill_Damage
https://maxroll.gg/d2/resources/poison-damage
Poison damage from multiple sources is very complicated.
I'm also leanring that Venom from Grief or Treachery can do strange things to poison skills and potentially overwrite an ongoing poisoning. SMH. My plan was Rabies/Fury druid swapping to Grief/Facet shield after Bite, but Grief (and barb Merc was going to have Grief + Plague, too) might overwrite the Rabies...
First of all, internally under the hood, poison is handled as a bit rate (1/256ths of damage), and it's applied every frame. For example, a Toxic Small Charm has a bit rate of 205 for 125 frames, which is displayed in-game as 100 poison damage over 5 seconds (125 * 205/256 over 125/25).
As far as I know, when poison is applied to a target, the game calculates an effective bit rate. It does this by taking the base bit rate of the poison being applied, adds +poison skill damage and the target's resistance (including any -enemy poison res on gear at the time of application). Using the Toxic Small Charm example, say you have +50% poison skill damage, -25% enemy poison resistance on gear, and the target has 50% base poison resistance and is affected by a level 15 Lower Resist curse (-60%). The target's effective poison resistance is -35%, so the effective bit rate is 205 * 1.5 * 1.35 = 414.
Adding/removing equipment with +poison skill damage or -enemy poison res (or the Lower Resist curse expiring / being refreshed) while the poison is already active does nothing - the effective bit rate as explained above is calculated at the time the poison is applied, and it remains fixed for the duration of the poison. I.e., the bit rate is not re-calculated on every frame, it's calculated once.
If a target is already affected by poison when an attack/skill applying poison damage hits it, the game compares the two effective bit rates (for the existing poison it uses the pre-calculated effective bit rate, for the new poison it calculates its current effective bit rate given all current parameters), and the higher effective bit rate wins. I.e., if the new attack's/skill's effective bit rate at that time is lower than the bit rate of the poison already affecting the target, the poison isn't overridden. If the effective bit rate of poison applied by the new attack/skill is higher than the bit rate of the poison already affecting the target, the new poison takes effect.
Sources:
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/inde ... son_Damage
https://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/ind ... Resistance
Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on poison mechanics.
As far as I know, when poison is applied to a target, the game calculates an effective bit rate. It does this by taking the base bit rate of the poison being applied, adds +poison skill damage and the target's resistance (including any -enemy poison res on gear at the time of application). Using the Toxic Small Charm example, say you have +50% poison skill damage, -25% enemy poison resistance on gear, and the target has 50% base poison resistance and is affected by a level 15 Lower Resist curse (-60%). The target's effective poison resistance is -35%, so the effective bit rate is 205 * 1.5 * 1.35 = 414.
Adding/removing equipment with +poison skill damage or -enemy poison res (or the Lower Resist curse expiring / being refreshed) while the poison is already active does nothing - the effective bit rate as explained above is calculated at the time the poison is applied, and it remains fixed for the duration of the poison. I.e., the bit rate is not re-calculated on every frame, it's calculated once.
If a target is already affected by poison when an attack/skill applying poison damage hits it, the game compares the two effective bit rates (for the existing poison it uses the pre-calculated effective bit rate, for the new poison it calculates its current effective bit rate given all current parameters), and the higher effective bit rate wins. I.e., if the new attack's/skill's effective bit rate at that time is lower than the bit rate of the poison already affecting the target, the poison isn't overridden. If the effective bit rate of poison applied by the new attack/skill is higher than the bit rate of the poison already affecting the target, the new poison takes effect.
Sources:
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/inde ... son_Damage
https://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/ind ... Resistance
Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on poison mechanics.
I'm in CET (Central European Time)
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Just the page I was reading. Makes sense to stack as much +skills and +% psn skill damage at time of bite and then switch to -psn res gear.ipatrishkov wrote: 7 hours agothis is the Pandora box you want to open. i use this guide here for poison:
https://maxroll.gg/d2/resources/poison-damage
I think the +% skill damage is applied initially, to be more precise, when the bit rate is calculated. but the - poison res is applied per frame.
However, I'm beginning to see problems with the way additional poison damage gets factored in, particularly with Venom procs from Grief and Treachery...
It won't help to switch to -psn res gear after applying the poison.FerociousTerrier wrote: 7 hours agoJust the page I was reading. Makes sense to stack as much +skills and +% psn skill damage at time of bite and then switch to -psn res gear.
EDIT: correction - yes, it will help for secondary targets afflicted by Rabies, as a new effective bit rate is calculated for each additional target as Rabies spreads, just not the initial target
-Enemy Poison Resistance only applies at the time of poison application, changing gear mid-poison will do diddly squat after the initial effective bit rate has already been calculated.
On -Enemy Poison Resistance at Amazon Basin (https://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/ind ... Resistance):
Even the maxroll page mentions this:
- It is only applied whenever a new source of poison damage is applied, so removing it afterwards will have no effect on remaining damage rate or length; adding it after a target is poisoned will have no effect either.
- -xx% EPR is checked at the point of Bit Rate and Poison Length application. Changing the total EPR afterwards does not affect the current Poison Length or Bit Rate.
I'm in CET (Central European Time)
My profile says Ladder, but I play both Ladder and Non-Ladder.
My profile says Softcore, but I play both Softcore and Hardcore.
My Holy Grail Tracker is for Offline Hardcore.
Holy Grail Death Count: 1
My profile says Ladder, but I play both Ladder and Non-Ladder.
My profile says Softcore, but I play both Softcore and Hardcore.
My Holy Grail Tracker is for Offline Hardcore.
Holy Grail Death Count: 1
This all tracks except for the -res part, which from the Maxroll guide seems to indicate that res is calculated per frame (??). Hence the maxroll Rabies guide recommending biting with Plague Bearer and then swapping to Death's Web. I am trying to confirm.ShadowHeart wrote: 7 hours agoFirst of all, internally under the hood, poison is handled as a bit rate (1/256ths of damage), and it's applied every frame. For example, a Toxic Small Charm has a bit rate of 205 for 125 frames, which is displayed in-game as 100 poison damage over 5 seconds (125 * 205/256 over 125/25).
As far as I know, when poison is applied to a target, the game calculates an effective bit rate. It does this by taking the base bit rate of the poison being applied, adds +poison skill damage and the target's resistance (including any -enemy poison res on gear at the time of application). Using the Toxic Small Charm example, say you have +50% poison skill damage, -25% enemy poison resistance on gear, and the target has 50% base poison resistance and is affected by a level 15 Lower Resist curse (-60%). The target's effective poison resistance is -35%, so the effective bit rate is 205 * 1.5 * 1.35 = 414.
Adding/removing equipment with +poison skill damage or -enemy poison res (or the Lower Resist curse expiring / being refreshed) while the poison is already active does nothing - the effective bit rate as explained above is calculated at the time the poison is applied, and it remains fixed for the duration of the poison. I.e., the bit rate is not re-calculated on every frame, it's calculated once.
If a target is already affected by poison when an attack/skill applying poison damage hits it, the game compares the two effective bit rates (for the existing poison it uses the pre-calculated effective bit rate, for the new poison it calculates its current effective bit rate given all current parameters), and the higher effective bit rate wins. I.e., if the new attack's/skill's effective bit rate at that time is lower than the bit rate of the poison already affecting the target, the poison isn't overridden. If the effective bit rate of poison applied by the new attack/skill is higher than the bit rate of the poison already affecting the target, the new poison takes effect.
Sources:
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/inde ... son_Damage
https://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/ind ... Resistance
Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on poison mechanics.
Right now I'm facing a conundrum of whether or not to have Grief on an Act 5 barb merc or on my weapon swap (for using Fury between Rabies bites). I'll have to calculate effective bit rates so see which overrides the other!
It isn't, and the guide doesn't claim that - in fact, it's quite clear on the opposite.FerociousTerrier wrote: 7 hours agoThis all tracks except for the -res part, which from the Maxroll guide seems to indicate that res is calculated per frame (??).
Under the "Resistances" section:
Under the "-xx% Enemy Poison Resistance (EPR)" section:
- Lowering a target's Resistance after Bit Rate is applied does not affect the current Bit Rate, since it checks the target's Resistance at the point of application.
- -xx% EPR is checked at the point of Bit Rate and Poison Length application. Changing the total EPR afterwards does not affect the current Poison Length or Bit Rate.
I'm in CET (Central European Time)
My profile says Ladder, but I play both Ladder and Non-Ladder.
My profile says Softcore, but I play both Softcore and Hardcore.
My Holy Grail Tracker is for Offline Hardcore.
Holy Grail Death Count: 1
My profile says Ladder, but I play both Ladder and Non-Ladder.
My profile says Softcore, but I play both Softcore and Hardcore.
My Holy Grail Tracker is for Offline Hardcore.
Holy Grail Death Count: 1
I think what the guide alludes to is this - Rabies is only applied to a single target at first (on striking), and then spreads to secondary targets. When Rabies spreads to a secondary target, a new effective bit rate is calculated for that target. The effective bit rate is calculated individually for each target. So yes, for Rabies, switching should help for all secondary targets, but not the primary (initial) target.FerociousTerrier wrote: 7 hours agoHence the maxroll Rabies guide recommending biting with Plague Bearer and then swapping to Death's Web. I am trying to confirm.
I'm in CET (Central European Time)
My profile says Ladder, but I play both Ladder and Non-Ladder.
My profile says Softcore, but I play both Softcore and Hardcore.
My Holy Grail Tracker is for Offline Hardcore.
Holy Grail Death Count: 1
My profile says Ladder, but I play both Ladder and Non-Ladder.
My profile says Softcore, but I play both Softcore and Hardcore.
My Holy Grail Tracker is for Offline Hardcore.
Holy Grail Death Count: 1
Thank you for the clarifications!ShadowHeart wrote: 7 hours agoI think what the guide alludes to is this - Rabies is only applied to a single target at first (on striking), and then spreads to secondary targets. When Rabies spreads to a secondary target, a new effective bit rate is calculated for that target. The effective bit rate is calculated individually for each target. So yes, for Rabies, switching should help for all secondary targets, but not the primary (initial) target.FerociousTerrier wrote: 7 hours agoHence the maxroll Rabies guide recommending biting with Plague Bearer and then swapping to Death's Web. I am trying to confirm.
I will have to read more into the Rabies mechanics and calculate bit rates vs. Lvl 15 Venom. I'd like to Infect --> swap to Grief/shield and Fury + have Merc using Grief + Plague (lower res).
I suppose if a monster is poisoned from one character and another character poisons it, one cancels the other. So you'd never want two poison-focused characters (player + player or Player + Merc decked in poison gear) in the same game as they negate each other's DPS. ???
ShadowHeart wrote: 7 hours agoI think what the guide alludes to is this - Rabies is only applied to a single target at first (on striking), and then spreads to secondary targets. When Rabies spreads to a secondary target, a new effective bit rate is calculated for that target. The effective bit rate is calculated individually for each target. So yes, for Rabies, switching should help for all secondary targets, but not the primary (initial) target.FerociousTerrier wrote: 7 hours agoHence the maxroll Rabies guide recommending biting with Plague Bearer and then swapping to Death's Web. I am trying to confirm.
Also note: this is all part of the ineffable plan to use the Metamorphosis and Bulwark barb Helm I got from you!
Poison is only overridden (replaced by a new poison) if the effective bit rate of the new poison is higher than the one currenty affecting the target, but yes, you're correct, only one of the two players' poison will affect any one target at any time. They can't affect the target simultaneously.FerociousTerrier wrote: 7 hours agoI suppose if a monster is poisoned from one character and another character poisons it, one cancels the other. So you'd never want two poison-focused characters (player + player or Player + Merc decked in poison gear) in the same game as they negate each other's DPS. ???
Also, note that poison works notoriously poorly in online multiplayer games (speaking overall in general terms). Disregarding conflicting poison applications, there's also the fact that any damage done to a target by any player, merc, summon, etc, will effectively pause poison tick for 8 frames (the frame on which the damage took place plus 7 frames after). So in a game with multiple players, mercs, summons, etc hitting the same target, your poison will pretty much be ineffective because it's constantly on pause.
(the same 8 frame rule applies to monster regen)
As described by Pavke:
https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo2/commen ... _life_for/
(this only concerns online games - for offline games, regen & poison tick only stops for a single frame when a target is damaged, the frame on which the damage took place)
I'm in CET (Central European Time)
My profile says Ladder, but I play both Ladder and Non-Ladder.
My profile says Softcore, but I play both Softcore and Hardcore.
My Holy Grail Tracker is for Offline Hardcore.
Holy Grail Death Count: 1
My profile says Ladder, but I play both Ladder and Non-Ladder.
My profile says Softcore, but I play both Softcore and Hardcore.
My Holy Grail Tracker is for Offline Hardcore.
Holy Grail Death Count: 1
Thanks for the read! Basically, this is a Death knell for my hybrid Rabies/Fury build, and I guess why I never see anyone with it. Fury (and my Frenzy merc) would nullify most of the poison damage. What a shame. Also looks like something that's not going to change. I now see why the Rabies guide basically has this build as just a cow farming build with a hit-and-run tactic--you don't want hits.ShadowHeart wrote: 6 hours agoPoison is only overridden (replaced by a new poison) if the effective bit rate of the new poison is higher than the one currenty affecting the target, but yes, you're correct, only one of the two players' poison will affect any one target at any time. They can't affect the target simultaneously.FerociousTerrier wrote: 7 hours agoI suppose if a monster is poisoned from one character and another character poisons it, one cancels the other. So you'd never want two poison-focused characters (player + player or Player + Merc decked in poison gear) in the same game as they negate each other's DPS. ???
Also, note that poison works notoriously poorly in online multiplayer games (speaking overall in general terms). Disregarding conflicting poison applications, there's also the fact that any damage done to a target by any player, merc, summon, etc, will effectively pause poison tick for 8 frames (the frame on which the damage took place plus 7 frames after). So in a game with multiple players, mercs, summons, etc hitting the same target, your poison will pretty much be ineffective because it's constantly on pause.
(the same 8 frame rule applies to monster regen)
As described by Pavke:
https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo2/commen ... _life_for/
(this only concerns online games - for offline games, regen & poison tick only stops for a single frame when a target is damaged, the frame on which the damage took place)
Fortunately, the Metamorphosis you gave me has both +3 Rabies AND +3 Fire Claw, so I can always try out the fire claw build! Thanks!
oh, doesn't it explain the Baal kill time variance from my experiment (posted a few days ago):
"after eight more excruciatingly boring Baal tests (tz 93, 128k dmg over 12s, -40 poison res, tz either extra strong or fire ench or exra fast or cursed)
without lvl 3 Venom 30s / 20s / 29s / 24s mean 25.8s
with lvl 3 Venom 14s / 26s / 25s / 33s mean 24.5s"
good times when poison was just active, bad times when merc was hitting him?? will need to test it again
"after eight more excruciatingly boring Baal tests (tz 93, 128k dmg over 12s, -40 poison res, tz either extra strong or fire ench or exra fast or cursed)
without lvl 3 Venom 30s / 20s / 29s / 24s mean 25.8s
with lvl 3 Venom 14s / 26s / 25s / 33s mean 24.5s"
good times when poison was just active, bad times when merc was hitting him?? will need to test it again
ShadowHeart wrote: 6 hours agoPoison is only overridden (replaced by a new poison) if the effective bit rate of the new poison is higher than the one currenty affecting the target, but yes, you're correct, only one of the two players' poison will affect any one target at any time. They can't affect the target simultaneously.FerociousTerrier wrote: 7 hours agoI suppose if a monster is poisoned from one character and another character poisons it, one cancels the other. So you'd never want two poison-focused characters (player + player or Player + Merc decked in poison gear) in the same game as they negate each other's DPS. ???
Also, note that poison works notoriously poorly in online multiplayer games (speaking overall in general terms). Disregarding conflicting poison applications, there's also the fact that any damage done to a target by any player, merc, summon, etc, will effectively pause poison tick for 8 frames (the frame on which the damage took place plus 7 frames after). So in a game with multiple players, mercs, summons, etc hitting the same target, your poison will pretty much be ineffective because it's constantly on pause.
(the same 8 frame rule applies to monster regen)
As described by Pavke:
https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo2/commen ... _life_for/
(this only concerns online games - for offline games, regen & poison tick only stops for a single frame when a target is damaged, the frame on which the damage took place)
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