OP items

Schnorki wrote: 5 months ago

departure wrote: 5 months ago

[..]
Most players just have someone rush them to endgame anyway
[..]

I used to think that. But apparently, no. At least as far as folks here are concerned.
(see forums/how-do-you-actually-level-t1487373.html)

As for OP items though, I'm inclined to say playing through vs. rushing largely makes very little difference in terms of the list.

The two "overkill OP early on" items that truly stand out, at least for a number of builds, are Spirit and Insight, as already mentioned here plenty of times. Not only because they're exceptionally strong for when you can realistically get them but also because - unlike most other items that would make the list - they're quite easily and reliably farmable with rather little time invest.

Other items you COULD get early on can indeed be quite strong and massively shift the balance in your favor at lower lvls (SoJ, viper, ...) but all of those will only do so if you happen to actually randomly be lucky enough to find them along the way (which most of the time you won't be) as actively farming them will likely take far longer than would ever be worth it. After all, why bother farming some "OP in early NM" item if farming said item takes just as long as playing through all of NM and hell without it and then some?

Given, if you're just collecting tons of lvling gear for future chars to enjoy then sure, the list gets quite a bit longer.

Spirit is OP when you get it, but it doesn't stay that way. It's OP for mid game, but not end game. Same with Insight. If we're talking Spirit shield, then none of that applies because getting a 4os

Monarch is not that easy, and you can't do it until hell anyway.

One exception, Spirit pally shields.

Is Spirit

Crystal Sword OP? For mid game only.
Is Spirit

Monarch OP? No, it is best in slot for many chars, but not obtainable mid-game (without trading) and difficult to farm when starting out.
Is Spirit paladin OP? yea I think that's fair, at least for mid game. Getting a BiS shield in NM is probably a bit broken.

departure wrote: 5 months ago

Spirit is generally not an end-game piece unless it's on the shield. And if it's on the shield, it's in a

Monarch which is hard to come by and has a high str requirement. Spirit doesn't feel that OP to me.

Sure, Spirit doesn't have any game-breaking mechanics, like Enigma (unlimited

Teleport) or Mosaic (no comments...). But still every caster uses it because it is BiS, and does so since early Hell. There is no alternative, and Spirit's buff is immense: all skills, FCR, FHR, life, mana, res. And Spirit is BiS for the cost of normal runes (hell, cheap enough to re-roll the RW for perfect FCR!) and easy to find base. You just need a White

Monarch to be socketed. No risk of getting too many sockets, no need to be ethereal (like Death bases), no need of automods (unless in an auric shield) or staffmods (like Obsession)...

departure wrote: 5 months ago

Schnorki wrote: 5 months ago

departure wrote: 5 months ago

[..]
Most players just have someone rush them to endgame anyway
[..]

I used to think that. But apparently, no. At least as far as folks here are concerned.
(see forums/how-do-you-actually-level-t1487373.html)

As for OP items though, I'm inclined to say playing through vs. rushing largely makes very little difference in terms of the list.

The two "overkill OP early on" items that truly stand out, at least for a number of builds, are Spirit and Insight, as already mentioned here plenty of times. Not only because they're exceptionally strong for when you can realistically get them but also because - unlike most other items that would make the list - they're quite easily and reliably farmable with rather little time invest.

Other items you COULD get early on can indeed be quite strong and massively shift the balance in your favor at lower lvls (SoJ, viper, ...) but all of those will only do so if you happen to actually randomly be lucky enough to find them along the way (which most of the time you won't be) as actively farming them will likely take far longer than would ever be worth it. After all, why bother farming some "OP in early NM" item if farming said item takes just as long as playing through all of NM and hell without it and then some?

Given, if you're just collecting tons of lvling gear for future chars to enjoy then sure, the list gets quite a bit longer.

Spirit is OP when you get it, but it doesn't stay that way. It's OP for mid game, but not end game. Same with Insight. If we're talking Spirit shield, then none of that applies because getting a 4os

Monarch is not that easy, and you can't do it until hell anyway.

One exception, Spirit pally shields.

Is Spirit

Crystal Sword OP? For mid game only.
Is Spirit

Monarch OP? No, it is best in slot for many chars, but not obtainable mid-game (without trading) and difficult to farm when starting out.
Is Spirit paladin OP? yea I think that's fair, at least for mid game. Getting a BiS shield in NM is probably a bit broken.

I think you missed the point by a long mile and then some. They are OP not because they continue to be used well into the late game but because of the crazy cheap runes required - basically the cost involved - vs the sudden spike in power levels. That is our point. With both these runewords alone one is secured to sail through the midgame. And when there is excess of runes is where the re-rolls happen until a perfect presents itself - which is then ultimately used as BIS in the Late game.

That is why they are both singled out.

But you generalizing "most" is where you are wrong. You should not speak for Most because there are players who do not like to be rushed and actually prefer to play the game as is. (the challenge..machochists..etc)

And on the opposite end of things, what is considered Under-powered? Early sets. Why? They don't age well, and by the time players find all the parts to complete is where they already outlived their expected use. See the difference in narrative?

Skaijuice wrote: 5 months ago

I think you missed the point by a long mile and then some. They are OP not because they continue to be used well into the late game but because of the crazy cheap runes required - basically the cost involved - vs the sudden spike in power levels. That is our point. With both these runewords alone one is secured to sail through the midgame. And when there is excess of runes is where the re-rolls happen until a perfect presents itself - which is then ultimately used as BIS in the Late game.

That is why they are both singled out.

But you generalizing "most" is where you are wrong. You should not speak for Most because there are players who do not like to be rushed and actually prefer to play the game as is. (the challenge..machochists..etc)

And on the opposite end of things, what is considered Under-powered? Early sets. Why? They don't age well, and by the time players find all the parts to complete is where they already outlived their expected use. See the difference in narrative?

So they're OP mid-game. This is the whole point. I did say that, I'm just not that impressed. A lot of things are OP for mid game because the game is balanced for hell and (to a lesser extent) normal. Nightmare kinda got lost in the fold.

It's not just that gear is powerful midgame, skills are powerful midgame as well. If you don't have Spirit or whatever, a few levels really makes a big difference midgame and you can kinda skill your way around it. Not so much for hell.

I guess I don't really worry about midgame scaling that much because one way or another you can find a way to blow up midgame. Late game OP is more of a big deal.

Poison is OP at the start, and to me it makes a bigger difference than any complaint I have about Spirit swords midgame.

^ if you are paying attention nobody is saying they are OP mid game.

Not sure what you are about?

Skaijuice wrote: 5 months ago

^ if you are paying attention nobody is saying they are OP mid game.

Not sure what you are about?

Your previous post:

You: "They are OP not because they continue to be used well into the late game but because of the crazy cheap runes required - basically the cost involved - vs the sudden spike in power levels."

You: "With both these runewords alone one is secured to sail through the midgame."

You can see how I interpreted this as a complaint about a spike in power midgame allowing you to sail through the hell. This next part:

You: "And when there is excess of runes is where the re-rolls happen until a perfect presents itself - which is then ultimately used as BIS in the Late game."

This is just incorrect because with the exception of pally Spirit shields (which I'll grant as OP in general), you're conflating Spirit sword with Spirit shield. You can't get a

Monarch until late game, so it's really not the same item or slot.

departure wrote: 5 months ago

You can't get a

Monarch until late game, so it's really not the same item or slot.

True, but it's an issue in SP only. On BN you can buy one for a few

Perfect Gems or a mid rune. The same with Annis/Torches to boost your str.

departure wrote: 5 months ago

Skaijuice wrote: 5 months ago

^ if you are paying attention nobody is saying they are OP mid game.

Not sure what you are about?

Your previous post:

You: "They are OP not because they continue to be used well into the late game but because of the crazy cheap runes required - basically the cost involved - vs the sudden spike in power levels."

You: "With both these runewords alone one is secured to sail through the midgame."

You can see how I interpreted this as a complaint about a spike in power midgame allowing you to sail through the hell. This next part:

You: "And when there is excess of runes is where the re-rolls happen until a perfect presents itself - which is then ultimately used as BIS in the Late game."

This is just incorrect because with the exception of pally Spirit shields (which I'll grant as OP in general), you're conflating Spirit sword with Spirit shield. You can't get a

Monarch until late game, so it's really not the same item or slot.

No. This is exactly what i was referring to - Spirit on a sword and Spirit on a shield at Clvl 26ish. Coupled with an Insight by L30.

Of course it has to be a Paladin shield..how else would one be able to equip a

Monarch before L30?

How many +2 ALL skills gear you have access to before L25 that you can control with minimal MF?

The last time the game allows you to do that was when Soj's have no level requirements. (Yes there existed a time uniques have no level requirements, and we paid 40 pgems for 1 SOJ.)

There is no case for any debate how OP by late game because it wasn't the point about a

Monarch in the first place.

Trang Oul wrote: 5 months ago

departure wrote: 5 months ago

You can't get a

Monarch until late game, so it's really not the same item or slot.

True, but it's an issue in SP only. On BN you can buy one for a few

Perfect Gems or a mid rune. The same with Annis/Torches to boost your str.

Is this something that makes it OP though? The cost on BN?

Anni is for sure OP if that's the case, but Anni is not that easy to get in this game in isolation. It's just that as a group we all benefit from bots farming SOJs and so online Anni is easier (definitely easier than it used to be).

If we're strictly talking about cost/benefit on BN making something OP, maybe

Hel rune is OP.

skaijuice wrote:

No. This is exactly what i was referring to - Spirit on a sword and Spirit on a shield at Clvl 26ish. Coupled with an Insight by L30.

Of course it has to be a Paladin shield..how else would one be able to equip a

Monarch before L30?

So we're just talking about paladins? I mean, yea, I'm with you, that mid-game gear is OP for mid game for sure. You're swapping almost all of it by end game though, for a better base for Insight (that you can't equip at level 30), for a better weapon, and maybe not the shield for pallys. Since the shield could stay, I'll concede the point for pally Spirit shield.

skaijuice wrote:

How many +2 ALL skills gear you have access to before L25 that you can control with minimal MF?

It's really just Spirit for sure. Lore is the runner up. Makes a massive difference in nightmare. Edit: actually Leaf

skaijuice wrote:

The last time the game allows you to do that was when Soj's have no level requirements. (Yes there existed a time uniques have no level requirements, and we paid 40 pgems for 1 SOJ.)

There is no case for any debate how OP by late game because it wasn't the point about a

Monarch in the first place.

Ok but you see how the argument about Spirit fractures around the base. The

Crystal Sword doesn't take you all the way (maybe a sing barb with 2 of them or something), and the shield isn't available for all classes but one until the end of hell... unless you're talking about trading.

^ Leaf doesn't provide all skills. I'm refering to all skills. not class skills. Huge difference.

Skaijuice wrote: 5 months ago

^ Leaf doesn't provide all skills. I'm refering to all skills. not class skills. Huge difference.

I thought you might respond this way. It's not actually a huge difference. Generally a build is focusing on class/tree skills, so for leveling a particular build, class/tree skills vs all skills is practically or in many cases identically the same. Leaf vs. Spirit for a lot of builds including fire druid, fire trapsin, and fire sorc, Leaf is going to win for a long time through the game. Often the reason to switch from Leaf is not that Leaf is no longer the best but that the build itself stops working, such as for fire traps.

I'm sure you knew this.

=============================================

In general, if you're looking for the top gear mid-game you just look at speedrunners. Stealth, Lore, Spirit, Ancient's Pledge, and fcr jewelry. That's the exact setup I was running when first going through single player. It took me to hell, but because I'm not a speedrunner it still left me unable to farm effectively in the most difficult portions of the game. To really take off, I needed to find other gear.

I'll accept that this setup might be OP for mid-game. I don't really find any of that OP for end game. Mid-game having an OP setup is just kindof an odd complaint about the game.

departure wrote: 5 months ago

Is this something that makes it OP though? The cost on BN?

Yes, the cost, but not only on BN, but overall. You get a BiS item for a few low runes.
Other OP items, such as Enigma or Infinity, require HRs.

departure wrote: 5 months ago

Anni is for sure OP if that's the case, but Anni is not that easy to get in this game in isolation. It's just that as a group we all benefit from bots farming SOJs and so online Anni is easier (definitely easier than it used to be).

I wouldn't consider Anni OP. First, unique charms do not compete with other items for slots, so a charm cannot be OP solely for outclassing any other choice.
Second, Anni doesn't have any excessive stats (like Spirit) or game-breaking mechanics (like Enigma or Mosaic).
Yes, Anni is too common, but it's not too easy to get on its own (after all, it requires SoJs), but because of the botters and RMT traders. And, of course, the realm-wide World Event.

departure wrote: 5 months ago

If we're strictly talking about cost/benefit on BN making something OP, maybe

Hel rune is OP.

Hel rune? Why? Because of the socket removal recipe? You still lose the socketables, so it's not that OP (as in some mods).

Trang Oul wrote: 5 months ago

Yes, the cost, but not only on BN, but overall. You get a BiS item for a few low runes.
Other OP items, such as Enigma or Infinity, require HRs.

I mean,

Magefist is a BiS item.

Silkweave is a BiS item. At least with Spirit you have to get yourself a

Monarch, and then you have to re-roll it a bunch to hit the right FCR breakpoints.

Trang Oul wrote: 5 months ago

I wouldn't consider Anni OP. First, unique charms do not compete with other items for slots, so a charm cannot be OP solely for outclassing any other choice.
Second, Anni doesn't have any excessive stats (like Spirit) or game-breaking mechanics (like Enigma or Mosaic).
Yes, Anni is too common, but it's not too easy to get on its own (after all, it requires SoJs), but because of the botters and RMT traders. And, of course, the realm-wide World Event.

I was making a bit different point. Anni is hard to get and I don't really think it's OP. But the price (free) on BN makes it OP. So if we're just going on price, it's OP. A free BiS item with a non-perfect role? An item that actually makes a really big difference in terms of attributes, resists, AND an XP boost which you cannot get from any other item in the game? For free?

This is why BN prices are not a good gauge.

departure wrote: 5 months ago

Hel rune? Why? Because of the socket removal recipe? You still lose the socketables, so it's not that OP (as in some mods).

Because it's easy to get and it's worth a lot. Because you need to get more Spirit runes to roll a perfect Spirit shield than you need

Hel runes to buy Infinity. This is why BN prices are not a good judge of what's OP.

Both of those examples were just meant to convince you that you shouldn't use BN prices to determine whether something is OP in the game. To me, it's a solo playthrough that makes for the best estimate of OP.

departure wrote: 5 months ago

Skaijuice wrote: 5 months ago

^ Leaf doesn't provide all skills. I'm refering to all skills. not class skills. Huge difference.

I thought you might respond this way. It's not actually a huge difference. Generally a build is focusing on class/tree skills, so for leveling a particular build, class/tree skills vs all skills is practically or in many cases identically the same. Leaf vs. Spirit for a lot of builds including fire druid, fire trapsin, and fire sorc, Leaf is going to win for a long time through the game. Often the reason to switch from Leaf is not that Leaf is no longer the best but that the build itself stops working, such as for fire traps.

LoL.

hmm? Not a huge difference? There's a good reason why fire builds don't use Leaf past L25, if at all. Why when one deprives oneself a shield with the possibility of better options like resists / CBF & +skill on top? All skills > Class skills and nothing you bring to the argument can top that. Its essentially HOTO lite bolstered by huge mana, FCR and Magic D reduction but wait..they allow you to make that into a paladin shield too? What am i waiting for!?

The basic fact that +all skills on a Spirit is downright OP for a L25 required RW is enough for a unanimous vote - it's up there. It's not about how far you are into the game, but when you can use it And the ease of access.

Also why

Thul,

Amn &

Sol are the top 3 runes to get ASAP after each reset.

Skaijuice wrote: 5 months ago

LoL.

hmm? Not a huge difference? There's a good reason why fire builds don't use Leaf past L25, if at all. Why when one deprives oneself a shield with the possibility of better options like resists / CBF & +skill on top?

...because you can't have that at level 25 unless you're a paladin?

Skaijuice wrote: 5 months ago

All skills > Class skills and nothing you bring to the argument can top that.

It's a little weird that you're using "class skills" to describe Leaf which is fire skills rather than a character class like "sorceress". It's more like tree skills that apply to a variety of different classes.

All skills vs. fire skills doesn't make much difference to a fire build. I don't know how else to plainly put that. If you're leveling a sorc, assassin, or druid, Leaf is one of the best things you can have in nightmare. Better than a Spirit sword. Ultimately Spirit sword takes over because the fire skills don't manage late game well.

Skaijuice wrote: 5 months ago

they allow you to make that into a paladin shield too? What am i waiting for!?

Yea Paladin shields with Spirit are overpowered. The combination of a paladin with Spirit

Crystal Sword and Spirit shield with resists at very early level is a bit ridiculous. But it's just paladin.

Skaijuice wrote: 5 months ago

The basic fact that +all skills on a Spirit is downright OP for a L25 required RW is enough for a unanimous vote - it's up there. It's not about how far you are into the game, but when you can use it And the ease of access.

Also why

Thul,

Amn &

Sol are the top 3 runes to get ASAP after each reset.

It's powerful. Aside from Leaf or melee characters it's very hard to beat for mid game. I still think it's odd to complain about being overpowered mid-game. It's very difficult to balance a game around midgame power. D2R has a weak nightmare, and that's down to the power of a lot of items (Spirit included) coming available around that time as well as a lot of skill builds working really well around that same time, and before there are many immunes.

I'm a fan of D2R. I think it's one of the best games that has ever been made. I get that you're complaining about midgame power, and there is a point there, but honestly I enjoy the differences in relative power in part because it gives some contrast to hell where a lot of things break and the game steps back up. That lack of uniformity is part of the fun in my opinion. Maybe the designers would have liked to make nightmare more difficult, but I'm kinda glad they didn't because it provides a little more interest and variation in game play.

I just don't get coming here and complaining about such a wonderful game just because the play balance is tilted toward power in the middle. I'm willing to complain, Mosaic deserves complaint. It's not that I think the game can do no wrong, but this just feels like complaining about a wonderful game that's super fun in a way that I don't think would make the game any more fun. IMHO

Edit:

FWIW, I'd be in favor of raising the level requirement for pally shields that have 4os. That would probably make the game slightly more fun.

no one's complaining.

I welcome any healthy discussion about items and progression, but to me it seems nonsensical to use the term 'OP' when talking about PvE/PvM.

Overpowered, to me anyway, implies that there's a PvP scenario in which the item being considered has a dramatic effect on an otherwise 'balanced' matchup between two opponents.

Then there's also the argument that D2's quirky itemisation and 'godlike' items is actually an integral part of what makes the game so great in the first place. Look at for example the homogenisation of gear in D3 and how that turned out.

Teebling wrote: 5 months ago

I welcome any healthy discussion about items and progression, but to me it seems nonsensical to use the term 'OP' when talking about PvE/PvM.

Overpowered, to me anyway, implies that there's a PvP scenario in which the item being considered has a dramatic effect on an otherwise 'balanced' matchup between two opponents.

Then there's also the argument that D2's quirky itemisation and 'godlike' items is actually an integral part of what makes the game so great in the first place. Look at for example the homogenisation of gear in D3 and how that turned out.

That got Grief banned in PvP & on a similar note, introduced those mechanics in the guise of Mosaic.

Only thing missing are the floating numbers on screen.

Making me want to make a pally, Nice resists for lvl21.