New PTR and new patch for D2R 2.5

Snakecharmed wrote: 2 years ago

I'd like to know how something as lazy as sundering charms became the solution to address hammerdins being too powerful in Terror Zones, and also how they determined that such a drastic change will be ready to go in three weeks from now.

While I agree with what you're saying, it sadly isn't really a surprise.

1) People complained (even more so than usual) about the "unfairness" of hammerdins to the point where even Blizz accepted something had to be done before the patch hits.

2) Blizz specifically stated (before 2.4) that they do not intend to nor ever want to nerf any existing builds. So that "something" had to buff others in a game that is already too easy. That's not to say they didn't nerf anything in both, PvP (FHR) and PvE (

Whirlwind) but when they did, they actually claimed (and probably believed) it was a buff..goes to show how little they understand their own game and how little you should expect of them and their changes.

3) People also (albeit less than in #1) repeatedly complained that immunities are unfair and make the game too hard for a lot of builds which is probably what gave them the sunder idea to begin with.

4) They had already mentioned "we hear we need to do something so we'll rush whatever the hell we can come up with and just do 'something'" so that should've lowered expectations even more.

And here we are...

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

While I agree with what you're saying, it sadly isn't really a surprise.

1) People complained (even more so than usual) about the "unfairness" of hammerdins to the point where even Blizz accepted something had to be done before the patch hits.

2) Blizz specifically stated (before 2.4) that they do not intend to nor ever want to nerf any existing builds. So that "something" had to buff others in a game that is already too easy. That's not to say they didn't nerf anything in both, PvP (FHR) and PvE (

Whirlwind) but when they did, they actually claimed (and probably believed) it was a buff..goes to show how little they understand their own game and how little you should expect of them and their changes.

3) People also (albeit less than in #1) repeatedly complained that immunities are unfair and make the game too hard for a lot of builds which is probably what gave them the sunder idea to begin with.

4) They had already mentioned "we hear we need to do something so we'll rush whatever the hell we can come up with and just do 'something'" so that should've lowered expectations even more.

And here we are...

For #1 and #3, this is why I fundamentally have a problem with relying on PTR feedback as a compass for change. It's actually slightly odd that I would say that because my discipline is user-focused, but there are times when the user feedback you receive is just noise and you need to know how to filter that out. You build products to delight users, but sometimes, users simply have no idea what they want and you need to become the user yourself to understand what the real pain points are.

For point #2, that speaks to much of the whole problem. It's usually the disconnect developers often have with the users of their product. We've strayed further from the light because the people maintaining this game are far removed from the studio that created the original vision for this game.

As for #4, that's just a sign of terrible software development practices.

I think the PTR concept has been a net negative for the quality of ATVI games because I'm not convinced that they're getting accurate feedback from the users. We all know how vociferous and scathing gamers can be. I've been there when I was younger. Hell, I was there last week. Even if the feedback they're getting is accurate, they're not solving problems nor doing any root cause analysis. They're constantly in reactive mode and they're not validating anything because they clearly don't play the game themselves.

I remember Blizzard North keeping the users waiting for ages with patches. Even though the results were a mixed bag sometimes, it was better that they didn't rush major changes out the door like the current team maintaining this product are. But this is ATVI, and in recent years, they seem like they're all too content with creating more controversy and being more notorious than EA.

Amen.

amen, brother.

I had this discussion the other day on discord.
boiled down to this: make good games, ignore the community and let someone experienced build your game.

seen it actually with fallout76. bethesda put in a lot of what the community wanted and look what a fucking turd that game is... terrible.

I have a firm opinion on building a good game and ignoring the community 100%

sadly, activision does neither.

Crispin wrote: 2 years ago

make good games, ignore the community and let someone experienced build your game.

Or as modern day Blizzard would say:
Start making good games, cave to random whining, end up making mediocre games and let some rando interns patch them to Death.

It's hard to please a modern audience, don't listen and people get very upset, do listen and run the risk of ruining your game. Personally I'd be quite happy if they left it alone now.

Gamers might be notoriously the most difficult audience to satisfy. In this case, ATVI has nothing to lose by making the player base upset (by not immediately addressing the hammerdin or elemental immunity complaints in such a reactionary manner). The game's already been paid for. It's not subscription-based.

I don't think the methodology for any of this was sound. How do we know that the hammerdin complaints came from actual hammerdin mains in the live game versus people who tried out the hammerdin for the very first time on PTR and didn't realize until then how overpowered they are? Do you really expect me to believe hammerdin mains don't realize how S-tier their build is? Why would they expect things to be more challenging in Terror Zones?

No amount of PTR play testing and reliance on more "squeaky wheel" PTR feedback over the next three weeks is going to ensure that the coming changes are implemented with proper care and attention. They would be better off waiting, validating, and doing internal testing instead of farming out the testing to squeaky wheel players on PTR in a three-week crunch.

These devs appear to have no vision for what they want to do with this game, which again is understandable because Blizzard North is long gone. Then the next best thing is to mostly maintain the status quo and make smaller, incremental changes rather than wholesale design-by-(player) committee. What they're doing now is D3-ifying the game, and from a game design standpoint, it's a bit of a mess. LoD players never felt obligated to a patch with each new ladder. That was usually the exception, not the rule as it is with D3.

I'm pretty sure the guys who decided to put the Butcher on Cathedral level 2 and scared the shit out of an entire generation of gamers didn't listen to any players who would have complained about that design decision.

I'm smelling another patch delay... Maybe they can align it with Halloween now

What would happen if the level requirement of the charms was set to 99? It would then essentially be a reward for "beating the game" saying "Congratulations, you can now farm any area you want". (For elemental chars, anyway.) There is probably zero chance of this happening though since the charms seem to be intended to open up

Terror zones, which are in turn intended to open up leveling to 99. But it's fun to speculate.

Engelmark wrote: 2 years ago

What would happen if the level requirement of the charms was set to 99? It would then essentially be a reward for "beating the game" saying "Congratulations, you can now farm any area you want". (For elemental chars, anyway.) There is probably zero chance of this happening though since the charms seem to be intended to open up

Terror zones, which are in turn intended to open up leveling to 99. But it's fun to speculate.

It would largely defeat the initial purpose and would result in massive QQing along the way.

Heh, I'm really in the minority on this (at least on this thread it seems). I'm happy and excited for all the changes.

I'm most excited for the

Terror Zones, and I love the Sunder Charms because it gives me something to grind for in the

Terror Zones, which have variety in and of themselves due to cycling.

What would be a better way to address Hdins? (Assuming you want to address them at all). More magic immune enemies? That was actually my first idea, but that feels like it would basically be an indirect nerf.

Also take what I say with a grain of salt; I'm probably more of a casual gamer for D2 than most, I admit that. The game got too repetitive for me a long time ago, so I suppose I'm desperate for *anything* new to look forward to at all. I was sure I was done with the game, now I have a reason to come back.

I badly wish there would be new content for this game (another expansion, another Act, etc) with greater challenges to push the Power Creep with some encounter designs that could maybe allow lower tier builds shine better; but this would obviously throw the balance of the game WAY off, with new gear, new monsters, etc.

Yeah this change is meant for casual players for sure. The thing is it just takes away a lot from the less casual players. I guess that was the point. It doesn't sit well with me. I wish there was some different game mode "softcore" / "hardcore" / "no immunities" instead so everyone would be happy. This is because casual players can have some fun and players that were really interested in some deeper game mechanics get the shaft here.

they called the fire bowa "HabanArrows".


head ---> desk

D2R Community is already splits into 8 differents game modes, that enough already:
1. Classic SC NL,
2. Classic HC NL,
3. Classic SC Ladder,
4. Classic HC Ladder,
5. LoD SC NL,
6. LoD HC NL,
7. LoD SC Ladder,
8. LoD HC Ladder.

I guess I get it. The game was already easy before, even for lower gear characters, depending on your class. Before my Infinity, my

Tal Rasha Cold Fire hybrid still steamrolled everything.

Pure light Infinity has been even easier.

And the Sunder charms are going to make the game even easier. So I get the hate there, even if I'm personally looking forward to it.

I still think the

Terror Zones will be the best part of the new patch. I just want a better excuse to go to a bigger variety of locations and kill a bigger variety of monsters.

Snape75 wrote: 2 years ago

What would be a better way to address Hdins? (Assuming you want to address them at all). More magic immune enemies? That was actually my first idea, but that feels like it would basically be an indirect nerf.

I would've actually preferred more magic immunes. Despite the fact that I love my Bone necro.
Both he and hammerdins would still be just as good at what they do, they'd just have less zone variety to do it in which would bring the whole thing more in line with other classes facing the same limitations. I for one like immunities as a concept.

Hell, I'd go down a completely different route myself...
1) Add more magic immunes (read: generally even out the number of immunes for each type throughout the game)
2) Make -res no longer break ANY immunities, regardless of the amount of -res applied
3) Make immunities automatically break when the mob is hit with a

Conviction and/or lower res with a combined level of 30 or more

That way not only do you enforce a "zone split" for EVERY single-element build and make it more even across the board, you'd also turn things like Infinity and Plague into mere (significant) dmg buffs against non-immunes, rather than something that makes or breaks entire zones for your build (your lightning build that is..). And yet, the auto-break at 30+ would mean that having a pally or necro with actual points invested into those skills or both with 1pt wonders enables all of those zones for your team, in turn giving party play a whole new reason for existence.

For physical resistance, the same thing would apply but at lvl 15 (since

Ward and amp/decrep overwrite one another, meaning you can't get both to stack higher). That'd then equally turn reaper's from a "make or break" into a mere (massive) dmg buff.

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

Snape75 wrote: 2 years ago

What would be a better way to address Hdins? (Assuming you want to address them at all). More magic immune enemies? That was actually my first idea, but that feels like it would basically be an indirect nerf.

I would've actually preferred more magic immunes. Despite the fact that I love my Bone necro.
Both he and hammerdins would still be just as good at what they do, they'd just have less zone variety to do it in which would bring the whole thing more in line with other classes facing the same limitations. I for one like immunities as a concept.

Hell, I'd go down a completely different route myself...
1) Add more magic immunes (read: generally even out the number of immunes for each type throughout the game)
2) Make -res no longer break ANY immunities, regardless of the amount of -res applied
3) Make immunities automatically break when the mob is hit with a

Conviction and/or lower res with a combined level of 30 or more

That way not only do you enforce a "zone split" for EVERY single-element build and make it more even across the board, you'd also turn things like Infinity and Plague into mere (significant) dmg buffs against non-immunes, rather than something that makes or breaks entire zones for your build (your lightning build that is..). And yet, the auto-break at 30+ would mean that having a pally or necro with actual points invested into those skills or both with 1pt wonders enables all of those zones for your team, in turn giving party play a whole new reason for existence.

For physical resistance, the same thing would apply but at lvl 15 (since

Ward and amp/decrep overwrite one another, meaning you can't get both to stack higher). That'd then equally turn reaper's from a "make or break" into a mere (massive) dmg buff.

I am Bone necro as well, and I just love the ideas above. Great stuff, you should work for Blibli. Level 30 would be perhaps a little high though, perhaps 25 would make it accessible to people with decent but not BiS gear.

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

Snape75 wrote: 2 years ago

What would be a better way to address Hdins? (Assuming you want to address them at all). More magic immune enemies? That was actually my first idea, but that feels like it would basically be an indirect nerf.

I would've actually preferred more magic immunes. Despite the fact that I love my Bone necro.
Both he and hammerdins would still be just as good at what they do, they'd just have less zone variety to do it in which would bring the whole thing more in line with other classes facing the same limitations. I for one like immunities as a concept.

Hell, I'd go down a completely different route myself...
1) Add more magic immunes (read: generally even out the number of immunes for each type throughout the game)
2) Make -res no longer break ANY immunities, regardless of the amount of -res applied
3) Make immunities automatically break when the mob is hit with a

Conviction and/or lower res with a combined level of 30 or more

That way not only do you enforce a "zone split" for EVERY single-element build and make it more even across the board, you'd also turn things like Infinity and Plague into mere (significant) dmg buffs against non-immunes, rather than something that makes or breaks entire zones for your build (your lightning build that is..). And yet, the auto-break at 30+ would mean that having a pally or necro with actual points invested into those skills or both with 1pt wonders enables all of those zones for your team, in turn giving party play a whole new reason for existence.

For physical resistance, the same thing would apply but at lvl 15 (since

Ward and amp/decrep overwrite one another, meaning you can't get both to stack higher). That'd then equally turn reaper's from a "make or break" into a mere (massive) dmg buff.

I'm with you on almost all of it; but wouldn't this allow the paladin to still be able to solo everything without a party? Just get

Conviction up to lvl 30 yourself using +skill gear, right? And same for necro using +skill gear to get to lvl 30

Lower Resist?

Edit: Also, I agree I do like the concept of immunities. My cold/fire hybrid felt more engaging to play than my Infinity-light-just-CL-everything. Though to be fair, the game is fairly easy either way. (and I'm fine with that as an isometric aRPG).

Necrarch wrote: 2 years ago

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

...

I am Bone necro as well, and I just love the ideas above. Great stuff, you should work for Blibli. Level 30 would be perhaps a little high though, perhaps 25 would make it accessible to people with decent but not BiS gear.

First off, if I worked for Blizz I'd have to quit immediately, regardless of salary. Looking at how they do things across the board in no way meshes with my personal need for doing things proper.

As for the second bit: That's kind of the point. Either you dedicate to it by capping and getting some gear to support it or you team up with the respective other to solve the problem (for the rest of your party as well).

Snape75 wrote: 2 years ago

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

...

I'm with you on almost all of it; but wouldn't this allow the paladin to still be able to solo everything without a party? Just get

Conviction up to lvl 30 yourself using +skill gear, right? And same for necro using +skill gear to get to lvl 30

Lower Resist?

Edit: Also, I agree I do like the concept of immunities. My cold/fire hybrid felt more engaging to play than my Infinity-light-just-CL-everything. Though to be fair, the game is fairly easy either way. (and I'm fine with that as an isometric aRPG).

It would. But since neither affect magic, it'd only help them on select builds (read: not hammerdins) and ask for a fairly heavy investment into those skills to do so. Admittedly, it kinda falls apart on Dream pallies as they go for conv by default and truly benefit from it but even for them it'd take 5 more skill points than you would normally ever invest into conv (since it otherwise caps the -res at 25). FoHdin I guess tends to easily get there as well but since most of their performance is based on the

Holy Bolt and not the lightning single-target bits, I wouldn't be too worried about it.

Poison nec would get a solid boost but since they're still crap against bosses by comparison to...well, most other farming builds...I guess that's not necessarily a bad thing. Gives 'em something to make up for that with. (I.e. "I may be slower on bosses than all of you but at least I can go anywhere!")

But yeah, t'was just a random thought and certainly not a perfectly balanced solution. Unlike Blizz, I don't claim to find those within 5 minutes.

lol! Fair enough!

I like all of those ideas, but might go a smidge further and just make immunes unbreakable period. Partying up would still be very ideal because different characters could bring different elements/types of attacks so that all areas could be handled more easily.

It still wouldn't be balanced though; I forgot about poison necros being bad against bosses.

Only necro I played was way back when the game was new. I was a lot younger and more ignorant and just liked having lots of minions. I remember thinking it was so cool to have your own army coming from D1.