Bowazon Bis armours?

Necrarch wrote: 2 years ago

davme_mcreg wrote: 2 years ago

Duress has 20% extra damage, at 1.66 attacks per second. Treachery has 0 extra damage at 2.27 attacks per second. Over 10 seconds of shooting (the average length of time an encounter will take), you shoot 16.6 times with Duress and 22.7 with Treachery. An extra 6 shots, which is 600% more damage, unless I am embarrassingly missing something.

...

Now, if you are using

Strafe:

Your attack speed with Treachery is 6.57 attacks per second (with a usable max of 6.94). Your breakpoint without Treachery is 4.9 attacks per second. With

Strafe the numbers are even more in favor of Treachery. 69.4 shots with Treachery verses 49 shots without. 20 more shots.

Sorry to disturb, I don't know at all Bowazons, but yes there is something embarrassing in the maths. 6 more shoots is not 600% more damage.

The good maths for 10s Multishot should have been:
For Duress 120% * 16.6 shots =1992% of your base damage
For Treachery 100% * 22.7 = 2270% of your base damage
Treachery still wins but only by about 15% - still good.

For

Strafe
49*120%=5880%
65.7*100%=6570%
Diff ratio is about 12%

Conclusion is same: Treachery is better for dps.

Actually, that's also incorrect.

True on the 2270% of your normal shot dmg for Treachery at 22.7 shots.
The Duress version isn't 1992% though. You're assuming that 20% ed adds 20% more dmg per shot which isn't true. If you already get say 300% ed from skills, other gear, stats and so on then Duress takes that to 320, meaning your total dmg goes from 4x weapon to 4.2x weapon or goes up by 5%. If you spread that over the same 16.6 shots, you're looking at 1743% of your normal damage done total, not 1992%.

Given, the 300 more likely than not isn't accurate as it is entirely dependent on stat distribution and other gear but you most definitely won't be at 0 without Duress.

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

Necrarch wrote: 2 years ago

davme_mcreg wrote: 2 years ago

Duress has 20% extra damage, at 1.66 attacks per second. Treachery has 0 extra damage at 2.27 attacks per second. Over 10 seconds of shooting (the average length of time an encounter will take), you shoot 16.6 times with Duress and 22.7 with Treachery. An extra 6 shots, which is 600% more damage, unless I am embarrassingly missing something.

...

Now, if you are using

Strafe:

Your attack speed with Treachery is 6.57 attacks per second (with a usable max of 6.94). Your breakpoint without Treachery is 4.9 attacks per second. With

Strafe the numbers are even more in favor of Treachery. 69.4 shots with Treachery verses 49 shots without. 20 more shots.

Sorry to disturb, I don't know at all Bowazons, but yes there is something embarrassing in the maths. 6 more shoots is not 600% more damage.

The good maths for 10s Multishot should have been:
For Duress 120% * 16.6 shots =1992% of your base damage
For Treachery 100% * 22.7 = 2270% of your base damage
Treachery still wins but only by about 15% - still good.

For

Strafe
49*120%=5880%
65.7*100%=6570%
Diff ratio is about 12%

Conclusion is same: Treachery is better for dps.

Actually, that's also incorrect.

True on the 2270% of your normal shot dmg for Treachery at 22.7 shots.
The Duress version isn't 1992% though. You're assuming that 20% ed adds 20% more dmg per shot which isn't true. If you already get say 300% ed from skills, other gear, stats and so on then Duress takes that to 320, meaning your total dmg goes from 4x weapon to 4.2x weapon or goes up by 5%. If you spread that over the same 16.6 shots, you're looking at 1743% of your normal damage done total, not 1992%.

Given, the 300 more likely than not isn't accurate as it is entirely dependent on stat distribution and other gear but you most definitely won't be at 0 without Duress.

Ah, indeed, the previous assumed that there was no ED apart of the one from the armors, but other sources need to count (and probably also for IAS part). Anyway, does not change the overall result : reaching the fastest breakpoint is probably qorth it.

Look guys. I knew it wasn't 600. Obvious. I was making a point. If you're getting free damage it's free damage. I knew that was going to get you guys all riled up but I was focusing on something else not exact damage numbers. Hence why I gave none in any of my examples, just bow speeds.

Necrarch good to have the actual damage numbers, thanks for doing them.

Anyways on the topic of bows, Goldstrike upped is fantastic. I used it for many months before getting

Windforce. And 3 15 ias jewels in a socketed

Helm is amazing for blazing fast speeds once you do get Fortitude.

Eaglehorn is also good, was about on par with whatever I was using once I found it though which was a bit sad.

When I was broke and needed something to get through nightmare I used Harmony. Not bad and cheap. I used most of Mav's set when I got into hell, and then finally got good bows like goldstrike and

Windforce when I full switched over to

Razortail, gore's highlords etc

I am also a fan of

Goldstrike Arch . Really good for

Chaos Sanctuary when combined with

Laying of Hands.

I was looking through my stash of bows

Cliffkiller is a decent bow too, knockback, ED, added damage, +50 life and I don't know why I'm explaining it all its all in the name there...

And let's not forget the new wonder that is Insight as a bow! Huge help to mana, and not bad damage tbh. And now all those + to crit strike actually mean something.

Nate wrote: 2 years ago

Hey everyone, my next ssf character build is going to be a bowazon. I haven’t decided on physical or elemental yet, I’ve got at least a week before she’ll be past level 80 for her final re-spec. I’m still on the hunt for another

Lo so I can make Fortitude, and I do have an Enigma and a couple Treachery’s, but are there any other armours that could be best in slot I’m forgetting, or you would recommend?

The only other runes I have lying around are a

Sur, 2

Vex, a

Gul, and a bunch of low ones, so I can’t make high end rune words armours...yet

Oh I also have a Stone I was thinking I’d put on her so she could have a

Clay Golem during play through. Otherwise should I be on the lookout for a jewellers armour of something? (Are they shop-able?)

For weapon options I have a Faith and fairly well rolled

Wizendraw, but no

Windforce yet.

Thanks for your feedback.

Fortitude will be invaluable. I have a level 94 Strafezon. A good bowazon will clear a room in seconds. I use a Faith as my main weapon and

Windforce as my backup. I also have an Enigma but it really didn't work out all that well. For

Helm I use an

Andariel's Visage, gloves,

Laying of Hands, and

Boots I switch between

Natalya's and War trav.

I've actually been asking myself this very same question lately: What would be my BiS-armour.

The character is a Physical Bowazon (Guided & Multishot - not

Strafe). It's using a Faith -bow, and going for the 95 IAS breakpoint.
The choice of armor seems narrowed to Fortitude vs Treachery.

Generally Fortitude is considered the "allways correct answer", but I'm actually leaning towards saying that this is the one case where that isn't true.
Fortitude is offcourse awesome if you're only looking at the body, but it just seems to costs me too much in the other item-slots when considering the total kit.

Here is what I figured the various kit's come down to:
(all options are assuming +20 IAS gloves and +20 IAS amulett)

Option #1
Body: Fortitude

Helm:

M'avina's True Sight (with IAS-jewel) .... Theoretically a magic

Circlet with 3x 40/15 jewels , but that's outside my budget.

Belt:

Nosferatu's Coil or

Goldwrap

Option #2
Body: Treachery

Helm:

Guillaume's Face (with IAS-jewel).

Belt:

Razortail

Razortail gives me +10% or so

Pierce, and a lot of free skillpoints for

Magic Arrow that would otherwise have to go into

Pierce (or about +33%

Pierce... depending on how you look at it), and Gface gives me a ton of Crushing blow. That crushing helps a lot with bosses (Diablo /

Baal), and the

Magic Arrow becomes a quite effective imunity-breaker for phys-imune, wich are the 2 cases causing me the biggest challenges, and all in all it just seems to play smoother with Treatchery.
As a bonus, if I do need to be more deffensive, I can proc the

Fade or even swap helmet into a

Kira's Guardian with IAS-jewel.

So, even if I do feel a little mad for doing it, I'm leaning on dropping Fortitude all together.

Would love to hear other peoples toughts on the choice, or if anyone has done some testing (with data-collection) on that.

You can achieve max IAS with Fortitude, so I think that defeats the argument for Treachery, because you are just missing out on 300ED and have nothing in return. Even if you don't manage to hit the max IAS and settle on 2nd best breakpoint, you will still do much more damage with Fortitude.

Defense is not that important in PvM on bowazon, you can be running around with negative res and be fine with Knockback on something.

What's the argument for Gface on a physical bowa? Isn't the effect of CB greatly reduced on bows? What about deadly strike?

Deadly strike is really good because it doubles your damage. It is identical to

Critical Strike, but they do not stack, so if you have 50% Deadly Strike and 50%

Critical Strike then you have 75% chance of double damage instead of 100%. I think if you can reach 80-90% critical chance you are good.

Crushing Blow is also good, but it cuts the remaining monster health by half of what melee weapons do. Still really good for bosses.

You're not really looking at my argument @louner.

First off I obviously know that you can reach the breakpoint with Fortitude. The very example i posted does that....

Second... My argument wasn't for the defensive qualities (tough I mention them as a bonus). Reducing Treachery into a "defensive option" is missing a lot about it.

The argument was for gaining Crushing blow,

Pierce and /or skillpoints in

Magic Arrow.

louner wrote: 2 years ago

Deadly strike is really good because it doubles your damage. It is identical to

Critical Strike, but they do not stack, so if you have 50% Deadly Strike and 50%

Critical Strike then you have 75% chance of double damage instead of 100%. I think if you can reach 80-90% critical chance you are good.

Crushing Blow is also good, but it cuts the remaining monster health by half of what melee weapons do. Still really good for bosses.

Hm ok. I use gface on pretty much all my melee chars, I just hadn't considered it for my bowa for some reason.

Goggen wrote: 2 years ago

You're not really looking at my argument @louner.

First off I obviously know that you can reach the breakpoint with Fortitude. The very example i posted does that....

Second... My argument wasn't for the defensive qualities (tough I mention them as a bonus). Reducing Treachery into a "defensive option" is missing a lot about it.

The argument was for gaining Crushing blow,

Pierce and /or skillpoints in

Magic Arrow.

Yeah, ok, but still, I think you are fine even with 20% Crushing Blow if you want to finish off bosses because of how often

Strafe /

Guided Arrow hits and you are still ok even with one point in

Magic Arrow. If you have issues with physical immunes you can just have Harmony or Wrath or Brand on swap. The only useful stat from Treachery you get is 45 IAS, which is unnecessary because you can get it from different sources and not

Sacrifice the damage.

I think I will never change my mind on Fortitude - I am set on that. All besides Fortitude I like to swap around for fun.

There were some Uber attempts though with bowazon that uses

Guillaume's Face +

Rattlecage + some other crushing blow stuff, so you might be interested in builds like that.

Saying the IAS is "unnecessary" or that you get "nothing in return" doesn't sit well with me.

Yes it's true that you can get the IAS back from other items, but you can't drag that into the discussion without looking at what you'll loose and gain in making those other item-choices.

The same goes for Harmony , Wrath or Brand on swap. Can't really trow that in here without looking on what you then loose (like CTA on swap).


I don't agree 20% crushing is enough. And even if I did, unless I go for

Goblin Toe (with it's 0% runspeed that I really don't like), the best I can get is 15 from

Gore Rider (and then I'm still loosing my

War Traveler and the MF & +damage).

Therefore the 35 crushing on G-face should NOT be underestimated.

I also do not agree that 1 point in

Magic Arrow is "enough". More points here does a lot for your efficency on a hard-hitting mini-boss with Stoneskin.


And efficiency is the keyword here. Big bosses like Diablo and tough mini-bosses are in my opinion the 2 things that cause the biggest challenges for this build.
Not sure I'd say I "have issues with them", but they are the biggest challenges (largely because most everything else just melts away), and so they are the 2 areas I'm looking to increase efficency the most - not just something I wanna be able to do (in wich case I'd agree 1 point and 20 crushing would have been enough).

Also
Harmony Wrath and Brand on swap is a bit off-topic, since I could do that regardless of the armor-choice.

On a phys-imune the comparison would then be something like Harmony and 1 point in

Magic Arrow vs Harmony and 10-20 points in

Magic Arrow.
so obviously Treachery does still give increased efficency on Phys-imunes.


Also also those options aren't really that good on phys-imunes as they can first appear. There's 2 reasons for that.
#1

Magic Arrow isn't based on "adding" magic damage, but on converting phys-damage into magic damage. Therefore you still want high physical damage on your bow on phys-imunes, and loose a bit by swapping into a lower damage backup-weapon.
#2 Swapping into a backup-weapon means you loose Fana-aura and attack-speed breakpoints that you still want.

I've tested Harmony on phys-imune hell-cow minibosses, and my regular Faith -bow with magic-arrow was actually outperforming it.

Goggen wrote: 2 years ago

Saying the IAS is "unnecessary" or that you get "nothing in return" doesn't sit well with me.

Yeah, I mean it's not perfectionism, I think we just have different playstyles

Goggen wrote: 2 years ago

Can't really trow that in here without looking on what you then loose (like CTA on swap).

I don't use cta on bowa, because she goes from 600 HP to something like 750 HP with perfect CTA.

Wow, so I just made my first fort in s superior

Wyrmhide!
I had a duskshroud, but they just look sooo bad.

Turned out almost perfect! 30 all res, 1.375 life per level and 1484 def.

I can’t wait to try it out!

I had to cube every rune I had above

Lem, less my

Sur... so stressful

Hey Nate that's great! I always do a little fashion show before I make an armor runeword to see if I like it lol.

I just wanted to touch on a few points brought up here.

When it comes to crushing blow on a missile character, the damage is broken down based on enemy type,
So we can see right away that everything is halved. Now lets look at the items we can use to get CB.

Gore Rider,

Goblin Toe,

Giant Skull,

Guillaume's Face.

Boots:
I took off my war travs to see how much damage I lost if we were to sub in Gores. I lost 280-467 damage. I believe that to be a good trade because hitting a boss with 1 crushing blow far exceeds the damage lost of an average 370. I use highlords as well so if we add the deadly strike from that (level 90 character), to war travs we get to basically 49%, not bad. I believe gore's to be a good trade. (No I'm not taking the MF from war travs into consideration, my zon is all damage hunting for runes. If you like MF then you will have to take that into account for yourself).

Goblin Toe doesn't have any faster run walk so just to me personally it's not even a consideration, however the extra 10% crushing blow is nice if you wanted to go there. But I think the FRW and DS from gores beats

Goblin Toe.

Helms:
I took off my 45/101

Helm (I wasn't paying the Jahs for the 120), and I lost 83-411 damage. Yup that's it folks. When I found out how little damage a 45/120 gave me I was staggered. Now this is where it starts to get personal. I believe quite strongly that IAS is king. hitting that top breakpoint makes the character. If you can shoot faster not only do you clear faster, you survive better from your life and mana steal. So that being said I would put a 3 socket 45 IAS

Helm or even

M'avina's True Sight with a 15 jewel as a BIS

Helm because of the IAS. If you don't care about hitting max breakpoints then Gface would actually be a BIS

Helm. You get an extra 15% deadly strike, bringing us up to 64%, (add in my 71%

Critical Strike and you are banging. Someone do the math for me on the actual chance to double I did an average of the 2 to get 67.5% actual but I'm not sure if it's just an average or how the game calculates it). Also Gface has the crushing blow so now we're up to 50%, which is huge for bosses if you keep gores.

Someone let me know if there is some math behind the scenes that D2 does for the 45/120 that doesn't show up in the displayed numbers like Grief.

Lastly, someone mentioned 1 point into

Magic Arrow was not enough. I only run 1 point into

Magic Arrow and it's sitting at 10 because of +to skills. It converts 23% of physical to magic which is indeed enough to kill physical immunes without

Amplify Damage or

Decrepify. I may have to spend a minute killing the unique, but it's not long. Ghosts are not a problem either, with the

Pierce one arrow usually hits the whole group and they all die in a few seconds longer than normal.

davme_mcreg wrote: 2 years ago

You get an extra 15% deadly strike, bringing us up to 64%, (add in my 71%

Critical Strike and you are banging. Someone do the math for me on the actual chance to double

64% of the non

Critical Strike will be Deadly strike, so that [(100-71)*64]/100=18.56% extra chance to deal double, so ~90% in total.
Could someone confirms? I suck at maths.

davme_mcreg wrote: 2 years ago

Lastly, someone mentioned 1 point into

Magic Arrow was not enough. I only run 1 point into

Magic Arrow and it's sitting at 10 because of +to skills. It converts 23% of physical to magic which is indeed enough to kill physical immunes without

Amplify Damage or

Decrepify. I may have to spend a minute killing the unique, but it's not long. Ghosts are not a problem either, with the

Pierce one arrow usually hits the whole group and they all die in a few seconds longer than normal.

Man, I maxed out

Magic Arrow, it’s awesome! It’s not only great at physical immunes, but is also the highest single target damage attack in my arsenal - I think because everything’s magic resistance is so much lower than everything else, same way Bone Speer, holy hammer and

Berserk are so effective. The displayed damage is less than what monster really take (I suspect, I don’t have any references to back that up)

The physical bowazon isn’t hurting for skill points. I maxed out

Valkyrie as well, with my all my extra +3 gear I put on to cast the thing gets up to level 43. When I respec tonight though I think I’ll probably keep it to a max of level 30 with all the extra gear. even at that highest level (which is 53 and I’ll probably try once) I don’t think it clears very fast, just tanks