D2JSP ladder advantage?

Freshchasty wrote: 2 years ago

Yeah, My whole point was around that Bob <-> Olivia advantage - if we start from scratch (so we are Olivia here) the Bob's that have fg will make it more difficult for us to get what we want than it would be when bob had no headstart.

Now, I do not get what Enrico and Tom have to do with that example, but I haven't been going that deep so that's fine by me

Enrico's a stand-in for a player who doesn't use fg. That's why I added him. Tom doesn't really care one way or the other.

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

Freshchasty wrote: 2 years ago

Yeah, My whole point was around that Bob <-> Olivia advantage - if we start from scratch (so we are Olivia here) the Bob's that have fg will make it more difficult for us to get what we want than it would be when bob had no headstart.

Now, I do not get what Enrico and Tom have to do with that example, but I haven't been going that deep so that's fine by me

Enrico's a stand-in for a player who doesn't use fg. That's why I added him. Tom doesn't really care one way or the other.

I probably mistook your example here - apologies, long day at work.

If I understand correctly you compared peanuts to fg, right?
I don't see where in the case you described is the currency that is already in game (runes, pgems etc.). It's not that Enrico has red Ice-cream and the only way to get blue Ice-creams is to find someone that would want his red Ice-cream - he can exchange it to someone who offers, I dunno, Ice cubes and then use his Ice cubes as a currency - but people with peanuts will easily afford more icecubes than what he can and offer more for same blue Ice-cream just to outbid him.

Freshchasty wrote: 2 years ago

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

Freshchasty wrote: 2 years ago

Yeah, My whole point was around that Bob <-> Olivia advantage - if we start from scratch (so we are Olivia here) the Bob's that have fg will make it more difficult for us to get what we want than it would be when bob had no headstart.

Now, I do not get what Enrico and Tom have to do with that example, but I haven't been going that deep so that's fine by me

Enrico's a stand-in for a player who doesn't use fg. That's why I added him. Tom doesn't really care one way or the other.

I probably mistook your example here - apologies, long day at work.

If I understand correctly you compared peanuts to fg, right?
I don't see where in the case you described is the currency that is already in game (runes, pgems etc.). It's not that Enrico has red Ice-cream and the only way to get blue Ice-creams is to find someone that would want his red Ice-cream - he can exchange it to someone who offers, I dunno, Ice cubes and then use his Ice cubes as a currency - but people with peanuts will easily afford more icecubes than what he can and offer more for same blue Ice-cream just to outbid him.

All the items in d2 are Ice-creams of various colors in my example.

El rune is Cyan,

Zod Magenta, etc. It's doesn't matter. What matters is people want some Ice-creams more than others and they thus all have value in relation to each other.

Peanuts are fg and not part of D2. However, the community has collectively (sort of) agreed that they have value w.r.t Ice-cream even though they aren't Ice-cream.

There were two points I was trying to make with my crude example and missed the point you were initially trying to make (purchasing power of Olivia vs Bob). The first is that Enrico will spend a lot of time either trading colors of Ice-cream or finding a player wanting exactly what he has until he gets what he wants. The second is that Tom is fine trading peanuts as are enough other people, so he will likely get what he wants faster. The amount of peanuts he gets is not important, since blue and yellow are worth the same (amount of peanuts).

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

Freshchasty wrote: 2 years ago

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

Enrico's a stand-in for a player who doesn't use fg. That's why I added him. Tom doesn't really care one way or the other.

I probably mistook your example here - apologies, long day at work.

If I understand correctly you compared peanuts to fg, right?
I don't see where in the case you described is the currency that is already in game (runes, pgems etc.). It's not that Enrico has red Ice-cream and the only way to get blue Ice-creams is to find someone that would want his red Ice-cream - he can exchange it to someone who offers, I dunno, Ice cubes and then use his Ice cubes as a currency - but people with peanuts will easily afford more icecubes than what he can and offer more for same blue Ice-cream just to outbid him.

All the items in d2 are Ice-creams of various colors in my example.

El rune is Cyan,

Zod Magenta, etc. It's doesn't matter. What matters is people want some Ice-creams more than others and they thus all have value in relation to each other.

Peanuts are fg and not part of D2. However, the community has collectively (sort of) agreed that they have value w.r.t Ice-cream even though they aren't Ice-cream.

There were two points I was trying to make with my crude example and missed the point you were initially trying to make (purchasing power of Olivia vs Bob). The first is that Enrico will spend a lot of time either trading colors of Ice-cream or finding a player wanting exactly what he has until he gets what he wants. The second is that Tom is fine trading peanuts as are enough other people, so he will likely get what he wants faster. The amount of peanuts he gets is not important, since blue and yellow are worth the same (amount of peanuts).

Yeah I get your point now, cannot say I totally agree with it, but that's because of my own opinion. I just wanted to point out the case that bringing Wealth from the outside will make it more difficult for players that do not do that (Enrico here) to gear up. But as being the Enrico-type of player I am - it is probably just biased

BillyMaysed wrote: 2 years ago

yea its really weird why people even do this because the entire point of ladder is to start over... if you have 50k FG and are able to fully gear every character in the first couple days, why not just stick to non ladder? lol

I have no problem admitting it. I leveraged JSP like many folks in the past since that was the player base and currency. But I completely retired and offloaded via OSRS 100% of my forum gold to focus on legit in-game trading and to support communities like D2IO. I rarely used it for purchasing items early on as I did like the thrill and grind of the finds - it was more about moving the supply since in-game trading was legit non-existent.

Happy to come back to the purist form and function - <3

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

That's not exactly what I said, but your points are valid.

Yes, fg effectively facilitates the trading of items from non-ladder to ladder by proxy, you're right. It's possible to do it without it, but it does make it a lot less cumbersome to do so. It also allows players to trade today's

Shako for next month's

Ber rune. And yes, if characters who spend a lot of time in game killing monsters (whether bots or no-lifers) can become more efficient at doing so, there will be more items in the game, sooner. With more items in the game, chances are the item that you found while spending less time in-game is no longer worth as much as it was yesterday. So the overall speed in which items are generated within ladder and thus become obsolete is accelerated. But this also means that those good, but obsolete items become easier to trade for sooner and cheaper, so everyone's character gets better.

I don't see why this acceleration is necessarily an evil. I definitely don't see why using a more liquid form of value retention/exchange is cheating. The majority of people using fg (without paying real money for it) simply don't want to spend the time hunting for people to barter with. d2jsp definitely isn't as wholesome and mature as the diablo2.io community, but they aren't the evil hoard you make them out to be either.

in my opinion it's as much cheating as buying items for real money. you can even use fg to buy other things outside of the game. like extra game clients for multiboxing. yes it's not evil. and yes it's very efficient and easy. people who buy items for real money also don't need to hunt for people to barter with. same if you can just transfer you're items over with shared tabs. but it does ruin the experience somewhat. accelerating back to pre ladder point. probably also for some of the cheaters. but we have learned to live with it. some people find other ways to play and enjoy the game. like playing SSF offline, holy grail hunt or pvp.

Udyret wrote: 2 years ago

in my opinion it's as much cheating as buying items for real money. you can even use fg to buy other things outside of the game. like extra game clients for multiboxing. yes it's not evil. and yes it's very efficient and easy. people who buy items for real money also don't need to hunt for people to barter with. same if you can just transfer you're items over with shared tabs. but it does ruin the experience somewhat. accelerating back to pre ladder point. probably also for some of the cheaters. but we have learned to live with it. some people find other ways to play and enjoy the game. like playing SSF offline, holy grail hunt or pvp.

I'm curious as to where you draw the line, since your arguments tend to exacerbate to extremes quickly and include a spectrum of behaviours.

Is someone who uses d2jsp and fg to trade only for items in D2r in a single game mode, who made their account after the launch of d2r and never bought fg, a cheater in your opinion?

Or do they need to trade in different game modes simultaneously for it to qualify?

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

I'm curious as to where you draw the line, since your arguments tend to exacerbate to extremes quickly and include a spectrum of behaviours.

Is someone who uses d2jsp and fg to trade only for items in D2r, who made their account after the launch of d2r and never bought fg, a cheater in your opinion?

Or do they need to trade in different game modes for it to qualify?

well. i would say it's just different levels of cheating. like i still think of trading at all as some form of cheating. just a lesser version of cheating. any acceleration to item progression outside of self found really. like i could just spawn items onto my character using a character application on single player. that's easy and useful to some. depends on what you want from the game i guess. but i would prefer the acceleration of progression at a minimum.

Udyret wrote: 2 years ago

well. i would say it's just different levels of cheating. like i still think of trading at all as some form of cheating. just a lesser version of cheating. any acceleration to item progression outside of self found really. like i could just spawn items onto my character using a character application on single player. that's easy and useful to some. depends on what you want from the game i guess. but i would prefer the acceleration of progression at a minimum.

Okay, gotcha. I see your point and respect your view of the game. There's definitely a lot of fun and sense of achievement in playing self-found. Progression is more meaningful as is completing the game relying on your own skills.

((Sorry if double post))

I kind of see where Katonda is coming from. The game is very much play-it-the-way-you-want.

I would scoff at Katonda, or anyone else, for daring to use FG. P'shaw P'shaw, tisk tisk.

While at the same time being scolded myself for using .

Io by other players who SSF only. While the players who are SSF only are looked down upon on by those who SSF Hardcore only, and so on.

And on the other extreme you have people who use real money, dupe, bot, etc. It's quite the range.

And it definitely isn't an equal playing field.

But then again, take two players using the exact same "rules for trading", and it STILL isn't an equal playing field. Not if one player is playing a Hammerdin and the other player is playing a Bowazon.

I think that not using fg makes the game harder for me - it has to, at least a little, maybe a lot.

But my reasons for sticking to D2.

Io is I just love the ui. It's pretty, I love the automatic linking (please don't change it, I wouldn't be able to

Ber it), and it is just aesthetically immersive. Makes me feel like I'm still "in the game" even when I'm not, somehow.

I will also say that, by own personal preference, the existence of any currency "outside" of the game (ie fg and real money) simply breaks the immersion for me. I like to feel like the character I'm playing, at least a little. When I restrict all of the trading I do to in-game found items only, it makes those same items feel more real, more tangible somehow. I found this

Ber rune. It's special and it's worth (and only worth) other in-game, "tangible" items out there, hidden somewhere in the vast stretches of Sanctuary.....

Imagine defending d2jsp forum gold as NOT pay to win / cheating.

Normal people start the ladder with zero FG and only have what they find or offer as a service.

Just admit it, you like having an unfair advantage over others to make yourself feel better. Its not rocket science. To infer d2jsp market has no effect on supply and demand of D2R is asinine.

NODRULE wrote: 2 years ago

Imagine defending d2jsp forum gold as NOT pay to win / cheating.

Normal people start the ladder with zero FG and only have what they find or offer as a service.

Just admit it, you like having an unfair advantage over others to make yourself feel better. Its not rocket science. To infer d2jsp market has no effect on supply and demand of D2R is asinine.

On the other hand, you can use Ladder just as a source of FG, to max your non ladder pvp character, Low LVL duel, or some other fun builds you want to try to not get burned out. Everything depends. I'm using a JSP for years, and i'm not going to take advantage of FG to boost my ladder character, but use my ladder character to boost my non-ladder ones.

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

0Tyrael0 wrote: 2 years ago

Hypothetically, I can play with a friend who uses forum gold and I do not. From 0 to hell we could find little of value on the first run. At the end, he can use the fg to buy items from others who have gotten lucky or simply use bots. I have to find something of value before I can trade for something of value. Not to mention his fg could have been generated completely from games besides d2. That is literally cheating.

I get it and it's an impactful example. I can empathize and see how it could be frustrating. I'll just say that I take a more holistic view and my view of cheating doesn't include using fg. Buying fg for real dollars? yes. Botting? yes. Trading using an intermedium to make the process less painful? no.

If you and your friend play D2R and it's your first time playing and he's logged 10000 hours, you might spend time learning the controls and it might take you a week to get out of normal. He'll be geared up and way ahead of you, simply because of his inherited knowledge of the game. Is that advantage cheating? Say you've never played a game and your friend has been playing 10 hours per day ever since pong was invented, is that cheating? Maybe your friend has another friend who kind of likes d2 but really wants to switch to d3, and offers d2 items for d3 items your friend has, is that cheating?

I think the amount of people playing game X to buy items in D2r is exceedingly small. The few players who use d2jsp for other games probably like the idea of being able to carry the sunk cost of time spent playing previous games as leverage into to the next one. We do it in so many other ways. Maybe I'm weird, but I just don't get why being able to take things from one game you've played to another is such a bad thing as to warrant being called cheating. Especially when it's by far, not the main use or purpose of fg.

Is playing the game more cheating? No, of course not. None of what you have said is a fair comparison at all.

If you play monopoly 100s of times before me, just because it's my first time playing do you have some right to use money from previous games and not call it cheating?

Cheating is an ugly word. It makes it sound immoral. This is a video game. It's not like you're preying off someones well being. It's not like using forum gold makes you a bad person. It's totally fine, play however you want.

The advantages of JSP are clear and valid. I'm not discrediting them. Cheating is rarely inefficient. But don't try to tell me it's not cheating. The whole point of ladder is starting with the same thing everyone else has. Just like monopoly. If you're starting with more than others you're cheating. It's 100% no questions, no interpretations, no opinions, cheating.

NODRULE wrote: 2 years ago

Imagine defending d2jsp forum gold as NOT pay to win / cheating.

Normal people start the ladder with zero FG and only have what they find or offer as a service.

Just admit it, you like having an unfair advantage over others to make yourself feel better. Its not rocket science. To infer d2jsp market has no effect on supply and demand of D2R is asinine.

This guy gets it.

NODRULE wrote: 2 years ago

To infer d2jsp market has no effect on supply and demand of D2R is asinine.

It doesn't really though does it?

Supply of items on the market is due to the number of players in games, finding items. How does d2jsp FG specifically affect either of those things?

Demand for items on the market is driven by more motivations but I still don't see how d2jsp FG specifically affects that. I guess FG holders can demand rarer items sooner and have an Edge over people without FG when bidding on them. How many people are going to be looking for Enigma on day 1 though, except the most hardcore? It doesn't really affect most of us.

There's other really bad problems with any kind of RMT - FG included of course as I've pointed out earlier, but this argument that jsp FG affects supply and demand specifically is a bit top-heavy to me. I agree with Katonda.

Change my mind?

BillyMaysed wrote: 2 years ago

yea its really weird why people even do this because the entire point of ladder is to start over... if you have 50k FG and are able to fully gear every character in the first couple days, why not just stick to non ladder? lol

It's because ladder makes more FG and FG = $$ in real life. For the people who didn't know... you can actually take that FG and convert it to $$. There is a hidden forum called the "donor" forum and it's invite only after you make a donation (and you might not get in). In there you can take your FG and get anything you need in real life whether its $$ or gift cards or anything you can think of. I personally hate jsp because it ruins the D2 economy but there's no way to stop them because the owner of d2jsp has found a loop hole to not get in trouble (which is all explained in a youtube video). So there's nothing we can do but yeah that's why everyone LOVES ladder the most it's because that's where the real $$ and or (forum gold) comes...

Teebling wrote: 2 years ago

NODRULE wrote: 2 years ago

To infer d2jsp market has no effect on supply and demand of D2R is asinine.

... but this argument that jsp FG affects supply and demand specifically is a bit top-heavy to me. I agree with Katonda.

Change my mind?

If some people can afford to make their Iron Golems out of Infinity (and they do) this affects supply very well in my book.

0Tyrael0 wrote: 2 years ago

Udyret wrote: 2 years ago

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

...

...

...
Hypothetically, I can play with a friend who uses forum gold and I do not. From 0 to hell we could find little of value on the first run. At the end, he can use the fg to buy items from others who have gotten lucky or simply use bots. I have to find something of value before I can trade for something of value. Not to mention his fg could have been generated completely from games besides d2. That is literally cheating.

And don't forget where all those millions in FG came from in the first place. (Yeah, they were generated from nothing and given out for "free", at least in terms of this fictional D2 world of ours.)
Give something valuable I actually "worked" for (again in this only D2 world) in exchange for FG, would get me this feeling of being a little late to the party.

I think d2jsp and fg only work that way because of botting and duping. (And how jsp started)

It makes it so normal players can't compete with ones that make a business out of the game that way.
The incentive for a regular player to use such a platform isn't that great considering currency items but for botters this is a godsend because it's easy to use fg to trade for something that can be sold for actual money.

remember d2jsp also brings inflation into ladder, when there are more money than its needed for demand-supply cycle, guess what it brings, it really puts those poor (aka play it fairly) into disadvantage (just like the real world), unfortunately there's no good way to rid of d2jsp we'll have to learn to live with it, its just completely renders ladder pointless, so why have ladder in the first place?