Why 2.4 changes to the meta do not go far enough for me

Here are my thoughts on the current (upcoming) patch, feel free to add yours. I know it probably won't do anything to change the game and blizzard does their own thing but I had to write it down so I can move on.

I have been playing D2 from classic 1.03 to lod 1.09 quite excessively and I quit after changes in 1.10 started to materialize.
Then I did play very sporadically a few months at a time in 1.10 and 1.11

When resurrected came out I was observing from the sidelines and finally decided to pick up the game again with the new meta changes coming.

The main thing I would change are immunities.
First off add a bunch of magic immunes, it should be on par with lightning in frequency. Lore wise I'm thinking any monster that uses magic should be magic immune. Oblivion Knights, Succubi, Vipers. Basically every endgame area besides cows should have at least one magic immune monster type. If there aren't any Lore wise make some up.
This would address Hammerdins roflstomping the game even without wearing gear. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed playing hammerdins but this was before +skills was so trivial.

Another aspect is breaking immunities. Remove that. Infinity can stay but with changes.
Preferably by changing how

Conviction works to how

Cold Mastery functions but better. It could still be used as a damage boost and get negative res.
The formula I'd suggest would be something like
new_resistance = 100 - abs(100 - old_resistence) ^ (offset + factor * slvl)
With this formula a high level

Conviction aura would melt non-immunes potentially even quicker, but this would hardly be a problem because everybody has to have a secondary damage type.
Open to debate, alternatively just raise the numerical values of immune monsters to 32767.

Third thing is difficulty. Make hell something casual players really struggle with. It was that way in classic upto 1.06
Ramp up the HP and damage of monsters in nightmare starting from act one I'd say just flat out double both.
Make the entirety of hell mlvl 85. Difficulty progression between acts can be done with monster density, mods and movement speed.

Charms, remove them. Torch, anni and

Gheed can stay. Seriously nobody likes to fill up their inventory with skillers, you just have to.
As a side effect this would also "nerf" casters or bring them more back in line with barbs, bowazons, shapeshifting druids and the like.

Finally balance synergies even more, remove ones that are impossible to max out because there are so many. They have already done that with

Death Sentry for instance, but

Phoenix Strike and

Fire Blast are still that way.
Give synergies to passive skills to balance out melee. One idea is to give the barb a synergy for every weapon mastery.

Spear Mastery and sword mastery could get open wounds,

Mace Mastery and

Polearm Mastery crushing blow,

Throwing Mastery and

Axe Mastery

Stun. Synergy skills could be another mastery or a relevant attack skill.
Others like

Lycanthropy,

Skeleton Mastery, etc... should get a similar treatment.
This would finally give meele a decent spot again save for bringing back the ancient

Whirlwind.

Insomnia wrote: 2 years ago

First off add a bunch of magic immunes, it should be on par with lightning in frequency. Lore wise I'm thinking any monster that uses magic should be magic immune. Oblivion Knights, Succubi, Vipers. Basically every endgame area besides cows should have at least one magic immune monster type. If there aren't any Lore wise make some up.
This would address Hammerdins roflstomping the game even without wearing gear. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed playing hammerdins but this was before +skills was so trivial.

If they do this, there would need to be a way to reduce magic immunity/resistance. If you can reduce magic resistance, then for PvP there needs to be a way for characters to add magic resistance (like %DR exists on

Stormshield). Not saying I disagree with you, but there's implications for this beyond Hammerdins.

Insomnia wrote: 2 years ago

Another aspect is breaking immunities. Remove that. Infinity can stay but with changes.
Preferably by changing how

Conviction works to how

Cold Mastery functions but better. It could still be used as a damage boost and get negative res.
The formula I'd suggest would be something like
new_resistance = 100 - abs(100 - old_resistence) ^ (offset + factor * slvl)

Hmm... I think reducing the

Conviction aura level on the item would work, so that it isn't an obvious weapon for any elemental build out there and might encourage the use of fully leveled paladins teaming up with elemental characters. You could increase the resistance levels of immune monsters so that only paladins with 20+

Conviction could break them (maybe to around 90%) and then a necromancer could decrease them further and vice versa.

I'm also not sure I follow the math/notation. How do you define new_resistance and old_resistance and why are you taking 100-old resistance to the power of something? That introduces logarithmic scaling which could be an issue.

Insomnia wrote: 2 years ago

Third thing is difficulty. Make hell something casual players really struggle with. It was that way in classic upto 1.06
Ramp up the HP and damage of monsters in nightmare starting from act one I'd say just flat out double both.
Make the entirety of hell mlvl 85. Difficulty progression between acts can be done with monster density, mods and movement speed.

While I agree with the sentiment, in 2022 this won't fly. True difficulty is reserved for fringe indie games. Mainstream games appeal to the common denominators in society, so I doubt those holding the purse strings will see this kind of change as beneficial to the bottom line.

I also would go about changing hell difficulty, but by decreasing the power of certain builds that can clear the game naked and/or are gods once geared. If you went into diablo 2 blind, hell would be difficult. The only reason it isn't is because new players have the internet and 20 years of mouth breathers (I use that term endearingly) disagreeing publicly about minutiae on forums.

Insomnia wrote: 2 years ago

Charms, remove them. Torch, anni and

Gheed can stay. Seriously nobody likes to fill up their inventory with skillers, you just have to.
As a side effect this would also "nerf" casters or bring them more back in line with barbs, bowazons, shapeshifting druids and the like.

I think limiting the space in which charms can be equipped, maybe similarly to jewelry slots or a second inventory page could work. But they're something fun to collect and trade and help those players strive for futile perfection.

Insomnia wrote: 2 years ago

Finally balance synergies even more, remove ones that are impossible to max out because there are so many. They have already done that with

Death Sentry for instance, but

Phoenix Strike and

Fire Blast are still that way.

Hmmm... synergies I don't agree. I get that some players get an itchy feeling when they can't max something out, but making certain synergies/skills unachievable to max I think promotes build diversity, since people can then choose which synergizing skills to use rather than always maxing the same ones to support their main skill. I think more synergies should be included and more made unattainable so that there's an obvious opportunity cost to skilling decisions and no 'right' way.

Insomnia wrote: 2 years ago

Give synergies to passive skills to balance out melee. One idea is to give the barb a synergy for every weapon mastery.

Spear Mastery and sword mastery could get open wounds,

Mace Mastery and

Polearm Mastery crushing blow,

Throwing Mastery and

Axe Mastery

Stun. Synergy skills could be another mastery or a relevant attack skill.
Others like

Lycanthropy,

Skeleton Mastery, etc... should get a similar treatment.
This would finally give meele a decent spot again save for bringing back the ancient

Whirlwind.

Yeah, martial builds should get some love, but I think 2.4 has shown that the dev team gets that. They've moved a step in the right direction, but maybe not far enough. Let's see how the meta settles around 2.4. I'm sure there will be a 2.5 later this year.

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

If they do this, there would need to be a way to reduce magic immunity/resistance. If you can reduce magic resistance, then for PvP there needs to be a way for characters to add magic resistance (like %DR exists on

Stormshield). Not saying I disagree with you, but there's implications for this beyond Hammerdins.

This goes to the larger point about immunities. I don't think players should be able to break them. Of course

Bone Spirit,

Bone Spear,

Concentrate, etc.. would be affected as well and those could be buffed.
It's always possible to flat out nerf hammers or turn them into a crowd control tool (by taking away damage and add +

Stun) but I'm for (sort of) keeping existing builds.

Blessed Hammer and

Concentration also only consume 40 skillpoints so there's plenty of room for adding a secondary skill. I mean Paladins are supposed to be melee/caster hybrids yet (besides

Smite) it's not played that way.

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

Hmm... I think reducing the

Conviction aura level on the item would work, so that it isn't an obvious weapon for any elemental build out there and might encourage the use of fully leveled paladins teaming up with elemental characters. You could increase the resistance levels of immune monsters so that only paladins with 20+

Conviction could break them (maybe to around 90%) and then a necromancer could decrease them further and vice versa.

I'm also not sure I follow the math/notation. How do you define new_resistance and old_resistance and why are you taking 100-old resistance to the power of something? That introduces logarithmic scaling which could be an issue.

You are right, an exponential operation is perhaps not the best idea, although it would make every point into the skill as effective as every other point. Replace that with multiplication perhaps. Changing the skill level would potentially create a market for "old" infinities so I think changing the skill itself is more sensible option.

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

While I agree with the sentiment, in 2022 this won't fly. True difficulty is reserved for fringe indie games. Mainstream games appeal to the common denominators in society, so I doubt those holding the purse strings will see this kind of change as beneficial to the bottom line.

I also would go about changing hell difficulty, but by decreasing the power of certain builds that can clear the game naked and/or are gods once geared. If you went into diablo 2 blind, hell would be difficult. The only reason it isn't is because new players have the internet and 20 years of mouth breathers (I use that term endearingly) disagreeing publicly about minutiae on forums.

That depends, the popularity of Elden Ring shows that there's demand for a difficult to play RPG. Upping monster based game difficulty is something that already happened in the past. As I recall it was even so easy to get to 99 as to hang out in the

Bloody Foothills when LOD came out. They have adjusted the exp calculation again afterwards and upped monster HP & damage.

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

I think limiting the space in which charms can be equipped, maybe similarly to jewelry slots or a second inventory page could work. But they're something fun to collect and trade and help those players strive for futile perfection.

Is it really just players striving for futile perfection? You don't need to want to min/max everything to feel the pressure. Even without skillers just by casual play on any playthrough you'll find some +life and +res charms. A slot approach for charms would work but they become just another slot of gear at this point.
An alternative idea I just had would be to limit the amount of bonuses you can get from charms. For instance if you have a +1 to combat skills charm in the inventory and add a second one just one counts. If you get +20 life from a charm and add a +15 life one you still just get +20 life benefit. But perhaps this is too convoluted as well and it certainly would

Confuse newbies.

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

Hmmm... synergies I don't agree. I get that some players get an itchy feeling when they can't max something out, but making certain synergies/skills unachievable to max I think promotes build diversity, since people can then choose which synergizing skills to use rather than always maxing the same ones to support their main skill. I think more synergies should be included and more made unattainable so that there's an obvious opportunity cost to skilling decisions and no 'right' way.

That other direction would work as well, if there's so many synergies that it's impossible to to max them all out. What should change is the situation where it's possible to max all synergies on some skills but not others. The synergy system right now more or less decreases build diversity. And also coupled with easy respec you have the situation where it's most effective to build single ability characters and respec them as you level up. Just created a new sorc in single player and the meteorb build seems senseless now. Just max everything into

Fireball until nightmare act IV and then respec into

Glacial Spike and blizzard.
It always irks me when the most effective way to play is also the least fun.

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

Yeah, martial builds should get some love, but I think 2.4 has shown that the dev team gets that. They've moved a step in the right direction, but maybe not far enough. Let's see how the meta settles around 2.4. I'm sure there will be a 2.5 later this year.

Let's hope so. What irks me is that the barb and necro were left essentially untouched. Sure I will play the new throw barb once I find the gear for him and make yet another summoner. It's just that these aren't exactly new builds in the sense that they can be a character to farm with effectively.

You're just full of terrible ideas, Insomnia. Diablo II hasn't been the game you want it to be for like two decades. The D2R dev team are working to move D2 forward. You want them to go backward.

Bring back launch d2r firewall! just kidding. it was fun while it lasted. for a second i didnt have to pick a cookie cutter sorc build. Good day!

iamergo wrote: 2 years ago

You're just full of terrible ideas, Insomnia. Diablo II hasn't been the game you want it to be for like two decades. The D2R dev team are working to move D2 forward. You want them to go backward.

So perhaps I was playing D2 when you were in diapers?
scnr

Do you have some concrete criticism to my suggestions?

Amethia83 wrote: 2 years ago

Bring back launch d2r firewall! just kidding. it was fun while it lasted. for a second i didnt have to pick a cookie cutter sorc build. Good day!

Yeah that was somewhere between ias independent

Whirlwind and player count independent

Corpse Explosion in the classic release.
Although I think there's a good chance we have similarly broken stuff this patch, I'm not really sure they fixed the

Holy Fire auradin "build" from the first PTR. If it takes 2 instead of 1 tick for everything in a 3 screen radius to die it really won't be much of a difference.

I think theres a pretty easy solution for immunities: 0-100% dmg reduction.

e.g.
non-immunes go from 0-70% dmg reduction so with 50% immunity a 10k

Fireball now deals 5k.
immunes are 70-100% so with 95% the 10k

Fireball just deals 0,5k, with 100% it wont deal any dmg.
if you have "-5% enemies fire immunity" its 95-5=90 and your

Fireball now deals 1k.

Magic dmg should be a handled like elemental dmg and should get their own reduce immunity stuff.

To finaly buff physical dmg "physical immunity" should be limited to 50% (non-immunits 0-30%).

Felstroll wrote: 2 years ago

I think theres a pretty easy solution for immunities: 0-100% dmg reduction.

e.g.
non-immunes go from 0-70% dmg reduction so with 50% immunity a 10k

Fireball now deals 5k.
immunes are 70-100% so with 95% the 10k

Fireball just deals 0,5k, with 100% it wont deal any dmg.
if you have "-5% enemies fire immunity" its 95-5=90 and your

Fireball now deals 1k.

Magic dmg should be a handled like elemental dmg and should get their own reduce immunity stuff.

To finaly buff physical dmg "physical immunity" should be limited to 50% (non-immunits 0-30%).

What do you mean? That's pretty much how it works right now.
Immune monsters simply have more than 100% numerical resistance, the difficulty and the difficulty to break the immunity depends on that value. For instance a

Fallen has 110% resistance and you apply a -85% from Infinity you end up with 25%.

I do like that immunities exist, the problem is as long as there's an avenue to circumvent them and that being the better option players will flock to that option. Look for any current build guide for any elemental character and you see them focused on one damage type.
This is sort of legitimate because it is assumed to have an Infinity merc.

The problem is players will follow these guides but 99% of them will never be able to afford an Infinity. This means characters who won't be able to solo hellforge, CS or ancients.
What I propose instead is democratize this by making immunities unbreakable and revamping the synergy system to make dual-spec builds the status quo instead.

As for physical immunes, there should be less than for other damage types. I'm fine with the amount we have now but I would give the barb a way to deal elemental damage.

Insomnia wrote: 2 years ago

This means characters who won't be able to solo hellforge, CS or ancients.

Apparently dual spec, physical and magic damage types as well as wands with Lower Res charges don't exist. LMAO

Are you larping or are you really that insufferable?

Insomnia wrote: 2 years ago

First off add a bunch of magic immunes, it should be on par with lightning in frequency. Lore wise I'm thinking any monster that uses magic should be magic immune. Oblivion Knights, Succubi, Vipers. Basically every endgame area besides cows should have at least one magic immune monster type. If there aren't any Lore wise make some up.
This would address Hammerdins roflstomping the game even without wearing gear.

Agreed, but also add immunes to cow level. It's absurdly easy to farm: open map, great monster density, only slow melee monsters, no immunities.
Frenzytaurs fit the cow level; they'd make it at least a bit harder.

Insomnia wrote: 2 years ago

Open to debate, alternatively just raise the numerical values of immune monsters to 32767.

No, that'd make -enemy res affix and several skills (

Cold Mastery,

Conviction,

Amplify Damage,

Lower Resist and partially

Decrepify) useless.

Insomnia wrote: 2 years ago

Charms, remove them. Torch, anni and

Gheed can stay. Seriously nobody likes to fill up their inventory with skillers, you just have to.
As a side effect this would also "nerf" casters or bring them more back in line with barbs, bowazons, shapeshifting druids and the like.

Actually weapon-based builds also benefit heavily from charms (+dmg, +AR, +HP), but they are less popular than skillers.
Nevertheless, 100% agreed. Charms were a terrible design, since we have to trade convenience for power. The unique ones can stay, as they are limited.

Insomnia wrote: 2 years ago

Finally balance synergies even more, remove ones that are impossible to max out because there are so many. They have already done that with

Death Sentry for instance, but

Phoenix Strike and

Fire Blast are still that way.

Controversial. If a skill has, say, 3 synergies, it is obvious that it is actually 80 points skill (example: Blizzard).
On the other hand, if there are more than can be maxed (example:

Fire Blast - 5 synergies), we know that we cannot max all of them. Paradoxically it leads to more diversity, since we have to choose which of them to max (in case of

Fire Blast: either fire or lightning traps). Another example: necro's bone spells, particularly

Bone Spear. Only 4 synergies, so theoretically maxable, but there is mandatory maxed

Corpse Explosion and multiple one point wonders:

Clay Golem, some curses and possibly also

Revive. We have to choose if we want yet another offensive skill,

Bone Spirit (for PvP) or rather

Bone Prison (for crowd control, but mainly as a synergy for

Bone Armor).

Insomnia wrote: 2 years ago

Give synergies to passive skills to balance out melee. One idea is to give the barb a synergy for every weapon mastery.

Spear Mastery and sword mastery could get open wounds,

Mace Mastery and

Polearm Mastery crushing blow,

Throwing Mastery and

Axe Mastery

Stun. Synergy skills could be another mastery or a relevant attack skill.
Others like

Lycanthropy,

Skeleton Mastery, etc... should get a similar treatment.

Difficult to balance. Crushing blow is a must for weapon-based builds, so other bonuses (and respective weapon types) could end not being used as too weak.

Trang Oul wrote: 2 years ago

Agreed, but also add immunes to cow level. It's absurdly easy to farm: open map, great monster density, only slow melee monsters, no immunities.
Frenzytaurs fit the cow level; they'd make it at least a bit harder.

Haha, sure I would be down for that. While we're at it we also can add the

Charge ability to any

Hell Bovine, sort of like

Reanimated Horde does. And it would fit since real cows are known to do that.

Trang Oul wrote: 2 years ago

No, that'd make -enemy res affix and several skills (

Cold Mastery,

Conviction,

Amplify Damage,

Lower Resist and partially

Decrepify) useless.

Making them useless against immunes is sort of the point. They would still work fine against non-immune monsters.
I think this should encourage build diversity in combination with more dual-spec options from revamped synergies.

Trang Oul wrote: 2 years ago

Actually weapon-based builds also benefit heavily from charms (+dmg, +AR, +HP), but they are less popular than skillers.
Nevertheless, 100% agreed. Charms were a terrible design, since we have to trade convenience for power. The unique ones can stay, as they are limited.

Right +min/max dmg charms, didn't think of them.
I think what blizzard originally intended for them is to add a few stats or resistances temporary for new gear or certain areas but then feature creep made them into the inherent part of the gear that they are now. I think they have done that with the casual player in mind and also wanted them to be able to improve their existing characters when they did buy LOD. What makes this worse the casual player today is way more savvy than back then so this decision backfires now in d2r. I doubt they revisit the concept in Diablo IV.

Trang Oul wrote: 2 years ago

Controversial. If a skill has, say, 3 synergies, it is obvious that it is actually 80 points skill (example: Blizzard).
On the other hand, if there are more than can be maxed (example:

Fire Blast - 5 synergies), we know that we cannot max all of them. Paradoxically it leads to more diversity, since we have to choose which of them to max (in case of

Fire Blast: either fire or lightning traps). Another example: necro's bone spells, particularly

Bone Spear. Only 4 synergies, so theoretically maxable, but there is mandatory maxed

Corpse Explosion and multiple one point wonders:

Clay Golem, some curses and possibly also

Revive. We have to choose if we want yet another offensive skill,

Bone Spirit (for PvP) or rather

Bone Prison (for crowd control, but mainly as a synergy for

Bone Armor).

Yes, that is the point, a skill with 3 synergies is really just a 80 point skill but a skill with 5 or more synergies becomes a skill that you have to think about how much you want to invest in it. Ideally synergies would be something you get not just for the sake of themselves but also because adding points to the synergy is useful itself.
Eliminating one-point wonders is another issue that should be done, but I'm unsure if it is feasible to balance since it opens up so many avenues for something broken to creep in especially if you add synergies to everything.

Trang Oul wrote: 2 years ago

Difficult to balance. Crushing blow is a must for weapon-based builds, so other bonuses (and respective weapon types) could end not being used as too weak.

Also true, I was thinking of it because it matches conceptually. In that regard builds with skill based crushing blow would have less restrictions in the boot or weapon slot. Builds with skill based

Stun would perhaps use it for safety (Hardcore) or because it enables a certain playstyle. I imagine

Stun might be quite useful with

Whirlwind if the duration is long enough. A long

Stun duration could easily be made as desirable as crushing blow imo. Open wounds might be the weakest option but considering you can dual wield all swords and spears have the highest base damage and it's a huge plus for ubers this might be fair.

I think the changes go far enough for now.

Considering the wailing and gnashing of

Teeth on the main forums (a little bit of it here too), I say a small and measured approach is best. Especially since the Dev team is proving about as competent with the old code as a juggler with Parkinson's. Wait, that was hurtful. As competent as a one winged seagull in a

Hurricane. Dark, but better. Further, a wrong move can totally break the game for months, if not for ever. I mean, screw up the ladder economy for a day and the whole season is toast.

I think the small changes are good to see how they work and are reacted to by the player base. They seem in line with the Dev's goal of expanding options, not nerfing anything, and making some of the lesser skills and sets a little more viable. Not great, but viable.

The game is already pretty good. For most, it's got its rough parts, (not counting the, "It's perfect and been perfect for 20 years" lobby) but no one can agree on what those are and how to fix them. So, without that, the Devs can make huge changes and hope for the best, or make small, hopefully recoverable changes. Yes yes, "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment". I know.

And why in god's name do keys only stack to 12. riddle me that!!!!!!!!!!!

Leaker416 wrote: 2 years ago

They seem in line with the Dev's goal of expanding options, not nerfing anything,

Didn't they nerf the bearsorc?

And on a related note, one thing I would like to see change - and I have no idea how they would actually do this - would be to make it so that any class can solo Ubers. (Maybe this is already a thing and I'm just not aware?).

If I'm wrong and there is a reasonable build for say, Sorc solo'ing Ubers, please let me know. Nerfing their one (expensive) option (the bearsorc) seems odd to me, while they turn around and buff FOH. I guess to be fair, paladins need more options, since they are limited in what they can do-er, wait..

EDIT: Also, I'm aware that non-BearSorc CAN solo Ubers (there are YT videos proving it), it's just that it's apparently a major pain? That's one thing I want to do with my Sorc at some point, just once for my own satisfaction - so I guess the challenge is welcome. But it is clear to me that I won't be "farming" Ubers, period. Not unless I make a completely different class, which I admit doesn't feel very balanced to me.

Leaker416 wrote: 2 years ago

Further, a wrong move can totally break the game for months, if not for ever. I mean, screw up the ladder economy for a day and the whole season is toast.

It doesn't have to be like that. Instead of big updates twice or at best thrice per year (software dev: waterfall), fixed to ladders, split them into small, frequent updates which can be introduced (and fixed/reverted) anytime (software dev: agile/continuous development). And FFS, hire testers instead of several months of PTR!

Leaker416 wrote: 2 years ago

They seem in line with the Dev's goal of expanding options, not nerfing anything

This is pretty much the definition of power creep.

Leaker416 wrote: 2 years ago

and making some of the lesser skills and sets a little more viable. Not great, but viable.

So they won't compete with "meta" skills/builds . Some bored players will use them, but the majority will stick to the well established, overpowered ones.

Snape75 wrote: 2 years ago

And on a related note, one thing I would like to see change - and I have no idea how they would actually do this - would be to make it so that any class can solo Ubers. (Maybe this is already a thing and I'm just not aware?).
If I'm wrong and there is a reasonable build for say, Sorc solo'ing Ubers, please let me know.

I'd love to see such a change. Currently a paladin is mandatory.
Technically more classes are viable, but in practice only melee (assassin:

Dragon Talon, druid: Fury, Necromancer:

Revive, Barbarian:

Frenzy) with mandatory crushing blow and they require crazy expensive gear. On the other hand, a paladin can kill Ubers basically naked.

Amethia83 wrote: 2 years ago

And why in god's name do keys only stack to 12. riddle me that!!!!!!!!!!!

For the same reason central banks keep interest rates low. To encourage trade. If everyone would be able to hoard shit ad infinitum, there would be less stuff in circulation within the market.

Trang Oul wrote: 2 years ago

It doesn't have to be like that. Instead of big updates twice or at best thrice per year (software dev: waterfall), fixed to ladders, split them into small, frequent updates which can be introduced (and fixed/reverted) anytime (software dev: agile/continuous development). And FFS, hire testers instead of several months of PTR!

Explaining agile to tech-workers is like explaining the benefits of water to farmers. I'm sure the dev team works iteratively internally. For bug fixes and hotfixes small intermittent patches work, but for things that affect gameplay it's best to release them less frequently. This way the changes can cascade through and be digested by the community. If you play every second weekend and your character is affected by a patch once per month, all of the information online is doubtful at best and that would lead to unhappiness among the majority of the player base. Those of us engaged in these types of discussions on forums who clock 10+ hours a week are in the minority.

Trang Oul wrote: 2 years ago

So they won't compete with "meta" skills/builds . Some bored players will use them, but the majority will stick to the well established, overpowered ones.

There are plenty of players who don't choose one of the three top builds.

Trang Oul wrote: 2 years ago

I'd love to see such a change. Currently a paladin is mandatory.

In 20 years, and an estimated 12-15k hours, I've never rolled a tin can. Call me nuts, but I never found him appealing.

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

If you play every second weekend and your character is affected by a patch once per month, all of the information online is doubtful at best and that would lead to unhappiness among the majority of the player base. Those of us engaged in these types of discussions on forums who clock 10+ hours a week are in the minority.

Actually I'd love to explore the game (again) instead of having every single aspect of it thoroughly analysed and assessed. Call me mad, but this is a negative aspect of online communities.

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

There are plenty of players who don't choose one of the three top builds.

On BN I mostly see cookie cutter builds.

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

Trang Oul wrote: 2 years ago

I'd love to see such a change. Currently a paladin is mandatory.

In 20 years, and an estimated 12-15k hours, I've never rolled a tin can. Call me nuts, but I never found him appealing.

I'll paraphrase you.

Katonda wrote: 2 years ago

There are plenty of players who do not choose one of the three top builds.

And sadly those are the ones which define the economy. If you're not using it, you'll fall behind.
Someone may say that it is a matter of choice. But it really isn't, especially with ladders half as long as in legacy D2. To complete a build (especially an underpowered one, which cannot beat Hell half naked) you either trade with the others or farm many hours every day and pray to have a desired item dropped. Most of us are no longer teenagers we were 20 years ago and don't have time for the second option.

Trang Oul wrote: 2 years ago

Leaker416 wrote: 2 years ago

Further, a wrong move can totally break the game for months, if not for ever. I mean, screw up the ladder economy for a day and the whole season is toast.

It doesn't have to be like that. Instead of big updates twice or at best thrice per year (software dev: waterfall), fixed to ladders, split them into small, frequent updates which can be introduced (and fixed/reverted) anytime (software dev: agile/continuous development). And FFS, hire testers instead of several months of PTR!

Leaker416 wrote: 2 years ago

They seem in line with the Dev's goal of expanding options, not nerfing anything

This is pretty much the definition of power creep.

Leaker416 wrote: 2 years ago

and making some of the lesser skills and sets a little more viable. Not great, but viable.

So they won't compete with "meta" skills/builds . Some bored players will use them, but the majority will stick to the well established, overpowered ones.

Good points all around. First up, spiral development. Always an option, but tough to do, especially for a game like this. What I mean is, they can't break anything. Even a minor glitch that made us have to reset our keybindings was met with pitchforks. Small changes might be easier and faster to get out, maybe not. Even a small patch would need to be extensively tested to make sure there are no side effects...again. Then the community gets upset that it takes 4 weeks just to add one feature. So, they are going to complain either way, what's the incentive to change the update cycle roadmap?

Maybe we have differing definitions of power creep. To me, power creep is when things get more powerful overall. So, power creep would be something better than Grief, Faith, or the other top tier runewords, or builds better than Hammerdin, Sorc builds. Your definition seems to be more average power. The way I am reading the intended updates, it will mean that more builds can clear CS quickly, but not as fast as the current champions, as opposed to any build being able to clear it even faster. We'll see how it gets implemented. There has been a lot of mocking of the new items as, "It's not better than ______", so it doesn't seem like power creep. Some of the builds appear to have the potential to be better than the current best, so we will see. Just because there aren't any nerfs doesn't mean power creep.

Regarding nothing challenging the meta builds, well, it is hard to do that without power creep. I can argue that people play the meta not because it is fun in and of itself, but the meta allows them to farm more effectively, which is either fun, exciting, or profitable, depending on their aims. Let's be honest, the game play is archaic, so the devs would be hard-pressed to create a build that is somehow fun and engaging. Plus, as stated, there is a certain crowd that just want to get to Meph as fast as possible to see if he drops a

Ber, and couldn't care less about anything else. The new builds are a step towards giving folks not laser focused on farming HRs something else to play with. So, then the options as I see them are, nerf the current top builds (oh, the wailing that would cause!), make a new top tier of builds (oh, the wailing that would cause!), or try and get a few more builds closer to the top tier so playing them isn't a waste of time (still able to clear WSK decently well) but knowing there are better options.

Leaker416 wrote: 2 years ago

Trang Oul wrote: 2 years ago

Leaker416 wrote: 2 years ago

Further, a wrong move can totally break the game for months, if not for ever. I mean, screw up the ladder economy for a day and the whole season is toast.

It doesn't have to be like that. Instead of big updates twice or at best thrice per year (software dev: waterfall), fixed to ladders, split them into small, frequent updates which can be introduced (and fixed/reverted) anytime (software dev: agile/continuous development). And FFS, hire testers instead of several months of PTR!

Leaker416 wrote: 2 years ago

They seem in line with the Dev's goal of expanding options, not nerfing anything

This is pretty much the definition of power creep.

Leaker416 wrote: 2 years ago

and making some of the lesser skills and sets a little more viable. Not great, but viable.

So they won't compete with "meta" skills/builds . Some bored players will use them, but the majority will stick to the well established, overpowered ones.

Just because there aren't any nerfs doesn't mean power creep.

Again, Bearsorc? Or am I misunderstanding that one?

It's such an odd choice, because the Bearsorc isn't even close to top tier. It's good for running Ubers with very expensive gear, while a Paladin can clear Ubers with much cheaper options. So, why on earth nerf it? It was a cool (expensive/ambitious) goal for Sorc players to aspire to.