Mrllama overreacting?

I don't see a scenario in which a barb will ever be able to effectively kill large quantities of monsters as fast as other builds.

And if you don't like it, don't build a barb.

I don't mean that in a dickish way, but if your soul purpose is to kill large amounts of cows and look for runes, try another character build.

But if you have an undying devotion to the soul of Diablo 2, as many of us do, feel free to play your barb for what he is- a barbarian. Nothing more, nothing less.

He isn't slinging hammers around, or throwing javelins or making it snow... He's dual wielding two colossus blades and holla'ing at corpses.

In all honesty, I do hate the Enigma runeword. I really do. I wish they would keep all the stats and remove

Teleport from it. I feel like this completely throws off the whole game.

You might as well just give the barb a level 50

Frozen Orb while we're at it.

Teebling wrote: 2 years ago

mishabg wrote: 2 years ago

The question one should address is, should this be fixed, or let as it is?

Many will argue that the inherent dysfunctionality of D2's balance is what gives the game its character and Spirit.
I am one of those people ^. The quirky itemisation, absurdly powerful builds, and straight-up broken abilities are all iconic to D2.
In fact, I would go as far as to argue that the homogenisation of power and item stats was one of the biggest design flaws of D3.
To me therefore, keeping absurdly powerful builds in the game, and even creating new ones, is actually in the Spirit of the D2 and therefore faithful to the original game.

I respect Llama's evaluation of the changes though, after all his understanding of the game is very deep.
I don't think he'd have produced several videos (which I have not yet watched by the way) if he didn't feel very strongly about them needing to get nerfed.

Well I do agree that super OP builds are fun to play and all, by I have 2 main issues with this;

1) Diablo is also a game of progression, a 'quest toward perfection' of sort... But when half geared chars obliterate everything in game, it kinda feels like it's not a quest toward perfection, it's just a question toward adding meaningless stats.
Say, to make a very simple example: If you character deals 1 million damage, but the largest health pool in the game is 100k, then anything else you do to boost your damage is just for show.
While it's not THAT simple in game, sometimes it feels like that. Say, my hammerdin isn't geared at all (I have like 3 combat charms, I use skullder more often than not, don't have any of those skill+FCR circlets, etc... Yet I obliterate pretty much everything in any of the top area - minus

The Guardian dudes in

Baal's wave 2, but that's not a big deal.
And Hammerdin arguably might not even be the worst offender. Surely not the only one... I don't play a javazon myself, but my D2 friend does, and he's not geared at all (His entire stuff isn't worth 5

Ist), yet he destroys everything...
Many classes like that, where you hit the "Nothing is a challenge anymore, everything melts down" super early, so improving feels less and less meaningful.

And of course, one solution to make this "quest for perfection" meaningful again, would be to either buff an area, or create a new super OP monster... But doing that would just showcase how terrible every other build are, which leads to the second point:

2) The problem isn't just those OP builds, the problem is those... that aren't. I, like many players, like to play a bit of everything, but sometimes it feels so awful to play anything but the top builds.
Like, even if you play say Wind druid, it feels SO slow/inefficient compared to everything else. Not only you kill slower than other builds, but you also have to walk somewhat close to the enemies, and if your tornadoes decide to derp out, sometimes you have to reposition.
So you kinda feel like... What's the point of playing this, versus playing something that kills twice as fast, doesn't ever 'miss', doesn't require me to put myself in harm's range, etc...

And of course, there's the school of though of 'Well buff them, then!" but I'm not sure this is more than just a throwaway line;
Let's say that today, Blizzard changed

Whirlwind so it put a strong poison on any enemies it touched, AND it spreads to any close enemy, so they all poison each other, and they all die in a couple seconds.

What would people say? A lot of them would say it's absolutely absurd, it's ridiculous to kill that fast, etc...
But that's pretty much what Javazon currently does.

dilbert383 wrote: 2 years ago

In all honesty, I do hate the Enigma runeword. I really do. I wish they would keep all the stats and remove

Teleport from it. I feel like this completely throws off the whole game.

While I'm not a big fan of Enigma either, the problem is that the game punishes you super hard for not teleporting.

Despite Enigma, the enormous majority of players either main sorc, or have a heavily played sorc (hence why all the sorc items are worth more)...
Would would it be without Enigma?

Hating on Enigma is understandable, but the problem is that the game makes being able to

Teleport a HUGE improvement on any character... So removing Enigma is like saying "Just play sorc, or be inefficient".
(And sure there are workarounds like

Teleport charges, but that's still not nearly on the same level).

Reb wrote: 2 years ago

On playthroughs there are just genuinely parts that are unfun or a bad experience if playing with certain characters. I play through the game all the way with each of my characters instead of getting rushed and without

Teleport for several sections I would just never play the game.

The game is designed around

Teleport existing at this point and I wish it weren't necessary but, for a good player experience, it is.

Seem like i never have a good player experience xD I dislike

Teleport so much that i don want to play Sorceress because the game is total joke if you can

Teleport past everything. But it also seem that the Diablo 2 endgame is not my cup of tea i get no fun out of slot machines and power fantasy. Maybe Diablo 2 is just not for me.

I think most of us agree that Blizz Sorcs, Hammerdins and Javazons are OP (hard to argue otherwise).
But for me the main problem with nerfing them (even a bit) is the current RNG logic. It is just insanely hard for a regular player (someone that is playing 10-15h a week, if that much) to actually get end gear without these metas.
I've been playing this game since one month after launch and got my first Enigma a few weeks ago and man it is a game changer, holy f*ck it makes a difference playing ANY char.
You can argue I was not playing the optimal path to Enigma, but that might just reinforce my point. If getting end game gear is already a grind with these metas for a regular joe, without them becomes near impossible.
I think this discussion makes much sense and do agree that playing other chars feels a bit less rewarding when a

Lightning Fury javazon just obliterates all cows in view, but this discussion should also include what would be done to RNG in order for players to achieve end gear.
The main path to optimal gear is fairly straightforward today - get a blizz sorc, farm the hell out of lvl 85 areas, trade and get items for other chars - substitute blizz sorc by javazon/hammerdin if wanted, though they're suboptimal, and it works.
Now if you nerf these (specially taking

Teleport away) and getting end game stuff will become just impossible or incredible annoying (farming

Travincal 10,000 times b/c the wp is close).
Think nerfing these metas makes sense as long as adjustments to RNG (or adding quests that give you **real** GG gear) are discussed.

Zaggazow wrote: 2 years ago

I think

Teleport should be a skill achieved by every class after defeat

Baal hell.
Hammers and LF could need a Nerf I agree.

If all of his ideas would be changed, it would d2 make a Completly new game.

Build diversity is fine now I guess.

What also would be a banger is Nerf the AR needed for melee chars.

And give non meta builds way more gas and quality of life.

Maybe not that much gas as we have seen on fresh ptr holy firepaladin

Or we can give the +1

Teleport to a few additional top tier runeword armors to encourage build diversity.

I like his suggestion about making swords runewords available to claws.
Right now I can't really say I'm drowning in choices. Why can't I use Lawbringer, Crescent Moon or Plague in a claw?

I agree on one commonly shared mentality, if something is OP, instead of nerf it, go obtain it or try something fun and unconventional.

speaking of

Teleport, I'd be a bit selfish on that after recently got my first Enigma, I personally wish

Teleport to be left as is, yes sorc is OP with her

Teleport, but I don't want to play her because everyone else does so and I'm fine with her inherent

Teleport skill, I still went on to spend months to obtain Enigma, it doesn't bother me and I have great fun doing so, I don't really see

Teleport being a problem to player (new or experienced)

People who say Auradin was OP never test it on P8
People who say to Nerf the Meta like

Teleport that has been for so long don't get the Game and Genre Diablo is

Slowing down the gameplay in general would be dumb. The true Endgame are Magic, Crafts and Rares, maybe a few Perfect Roll Uniques

And those are so rare you barely see them. Just play with the D2 Planner and make a good Rare, have fun with the displayed Odds to Roll the items =)

Things like fixing NHAM and Buffing Melee in General is what's really needed. Give Martial Arts Sin and Druid some Love.

Teleport is such a

Key mechanic that if it were to be removed, drop rates would need to be significantly altered.

I like the idea that every class unlocks

Teleport upon finishing Hell difficulty or something. Enigma is a great equalizier, but it's difficult to farm up without

Teleport. It kinda makes for a situation where everyone needs to start as a Sorc and make the characters they really want after that.

I also think

Teleport should appear on other runewords to provide options to the player.

Reb wrote: 2 years ago

The game is designed around

Teleport existing at this point and I wish it weren't necessary but, for a good player experience, it is.

What? Enigma has been introduced only in 1.10, after which there were no major changes. The design phase ended well before any patch, and I dare to say that even before the expansion.

mishabg wrote: 2 years ago

While I'm not a big fan of Enigma either, the problem is that the game punishes you super hard for not teleporting.

Despite Enigma, the enormous majority of players either main sorc, or have a heavily played sorc (hence why all the sorc items are worth more)...
Would would it be without Enigma?

Hating on Enigma is understandable, but the problem is that the game makes being able to

Teleport a HUGE improvement on any character... So removing Enigma is like saying "Just play sorc, or be inefficient".
(And sure there are workarounds like

Teleport charges, but that's still not nearly on the same level).

What if

Teleport skill (both sorc's and oskill) was nerfed (anyhow: cooldown, no tele through walls, much larger mana cost... - just to make it a tactical skill, not a spammable one)?

Sontaine69 wrote: 2 years ago

Slowing down the gameplay in general would be dumb.

Why? We have a perfect counter-example: Diablo 3, which ended as an arcade speedrun, thanks to timed grifts.

Tele, No Tele. Either way necromancer is still master race. Fight me.

Despite playin mostly sorcs, I started actively usin tele not so long ago - just here in D2R online, when you need to rush or fast-farm. Playin offline on 8ppl on completion, or to mf/exp grind is much more smooth for me, in fact. I personally dislike racing in D2 - but I admit that tele helpin you greatly for fast-farm.
So I think - leave it as it is. With one exception: remove this damn prerequisite from

Hurricane to

Armageddon. Everything else is just fine for me.

Personal opinion All these players/youtubers/streamers i don't think they see the full gaming of diablo except a few people almost none discuss about PVP. Many build are for farming and it is essential to make more balanced builds since the team can now make D2R better game but some builds are jsut for PVP i dont know why is that bad and has to change....
I was watching these guys Mrlama and Dubroski to take ideas about some builds i can say their guides havent been the best prety mediocre and convinient just to get some like and views...

Trang Oul wrote: 2 years ago

Reb wrote: 2 years ago

The game is designed around

Teleport existing at this point and I wish it weren't necessary but, for a good player experience, it is.

What? Enigma has been introduced only in 1.10, after which there were no major changes. The design phase ended well before any patch, and I dare to say that even before the expansion.

He did say, "at this point." D2 came out in 2000 and 1.10 was released in 03. The game has had Enigma for 16 years longer than it has not. It' s going to be extremely controversial changing that at this point. Besides if anyone wants to farm they'll just revert back to using Sorc's if you remove it. Nerfing sorc's tele seems a little ridiculous to me too.

I've said this to someone else before, if you don't like the tele aspect then don't use it or limit yourself in ways that you think will make it more fun. There's no need to force everyone to do it.

add a cd on

Teleport and see how many mor eplayers will start main something other than that boring sorc.

LF and hammers needs dmg nerfs too

Trang Oul wrote: 2 years ago

What if

Teleport skill (both sorc's and oskill) was nerfed (anyhow: cooldown, no tele through walls, much larger mana cost... - just to make it a tactical skill, not a spammable one)?

I think it would drastically change what things are being ran in the game, and I'm not sure it would always be for the better;
Say, the keys... Everyone and their mom run keys on their sorc (or characters with Enigma).
If

Teleport was a tactical skill and not a "get somewhere fast" thing, how many players would still farm them?

Running it is a waste of time, and actually clearing them is even worse, due to their low monster levels.

Honestly I wouldn't mind if

Teleport was removed as a 'spammable' spell, IF there was a way to make all instances to be L85 (either by achieving something in game, or an on/off switch), so you could just clear these instances and still be efficient.

The way the game is now, the only efficient way to farm keys and things like that, is to

Teleport to them. If you walk/clear them, it's a waste of time.

I feel like removing

Teleport would just shove everyone in the same couple areas you don't have to

Teleport to farm.

mishabg wrote: 2 years ago

I feel like removing

Teleport would just shove everyone in the same couple areas you don't have to

Teleport to farm.

Exactly - whole game would just be running Trav with a horker barb!

The instant gratification era

This isn’t a game you beat in a few days and then return. New players see nice expensive runewords like Enigma and say, “I should be able to get that with minimal effort” Like every other game they’ve played the past 10 years.

Everyone and their granny want to change the game to the way they think would be good. If everyone got their way we would have a million different versions of d2.

There’s a reason this game was brought back to life after decades since release, IT IS A GREAT GAME. Stop trying to change that.

Bdalfons wrote: 2 years ago

This isn’t a game you beat in a few days and then return. New players see nice expensive runewords like Enigma and say, “I should be able to get that with minimal effort” Like every other game they’ve played the past 10 years.

To be fair, almost every "guide" set unrealistic expectations by listing Enigma as the standard armor.
This leads new players to a rude awakening when no one wants to trade a

Jah for their first unique drop.