Grief vs BoTD Melee

I have a question for those that have played melee with both of these runewords; is there a point in using BoTD over Grief? The reason for asking is I have been using Grief in a melee capacity for awhile now and it was game changing in regards to sheer damage output (the flat damage bonus is just nasty) compared to previous uniques/runewords I had used before. I am in a position Wealth-wise that I can potentially look at building higher level runewords (BoTD/LW 'hahahah yeah right') So, should I just save those runes for use in other class builds or is BoTD a step up or a wash, or dare it be said, worse? Thanks in advance for the input!

How is BoTD a higher level runeword, compared to Grief? Simply runes-wise? BoTD can't hold a candle to Grief

the problem I see is a different one.

since botd makes weapons indestructible, you need to find a good base, which means you need to find have at least an

Eth sup

Cryptic Axe or an

Eth sup

Thresher to use it's full potential.
javazons use this on an

Eth sup

Spear for good damage.

this runeword in a 6soc pb or a 6soc

Axe is just a waste of damage potential.

H O W E V E R,
given that it is relatively cheap in comparison (just 1

Zod and 1

Vex, rest is crap) you can try different weapon types in my opinion
(imho, botd falls short of Grief. Grief is a Beast. pun intended).

Stats and leech of Breath of the Dying is nice. I think dual Grief does more damage.
When I do

Diablo Clone, I use Grief + Death in a

Colossus Sword.
The thing about Grief in

Phase Blade is, that attack speed is a no-brainer.

I use Grief and BOTD on a

Frenzy barb together....
I wouldnt say BOTD is better by any stretch,
But it is fun to use with a Grief...

I have an eBOTD +3

Matriarchal Spear. I didn't exactly have a choice.

There is at least one build where BotD is above Grief : Avenger Paladin. As

Vengeance bases its elemental damage on the base damage of the weapon (if I understand correctly, please correct me if I am wrong), it does not take into account the Grief flat damage.

Not sure if there are other cases of BotD being better than Grief though.

Necrarch wrote: 1 year ago

There is at least one build where BotD is above Grief : Avenger Paladin. As

Vengeance bases its elemental damage on the base damage of the weapon (if I understand correctly, please correct me if I am wrong), it does not take into account the Grief flat damage.

Not sure if there are other cases of BotD being better than Grief though.

Haven't tested that in decades but I believe

Vengeance was indeed one of the very few skills that doesn't work with Grief, as opposed to countless others that do work with it but don't show as such on the char screen (e.g.

Smite,

Berserk, ..).

In terms of just damage, Grief is generally better than BotD, but there are builds that will do way more damage with BotD than Grief. The other aspects of the different runewords really depends on what your build looks like.

gunroar wrote: 1 year ago

In terms of just damage, Grief is generally better than BotD, but there are builds that will do way more damage with BotD than Grief. The other aspects of the different runewords really depends on what your build looks like.

I'm a noob, which builds are these out of interest, beyond the Avenger Paladin mentioned above?

For Fury/Mele/ Druid BotD on 2h

Eth CB/Polearm is better than Grief.

Janet the Java wrote: 1 year ago

I'm a noob, which builds are these out of interest, beyond the Avenger Paladin mentioned above?

The one I'm most familiar with is PvM Fury Druid. Grief is far from BiS... except in Hardcore and maybe PvP (I don't duel so IDK much about PvP). Just to give some numbers for comparison, if you gear up your druid with Grief, you're probably running Grief PB, Jalal, Fort, String,

Laying of Hands, Highlord, Gorerider, rare ring, Ravenfrost, and either Phoenix or

Stormshield. Your damage from there will depend on how you line up your stats and charms. I'm just going to use some numbers from builds with top end gear.

Grief + SS
Total Life: ~6,100 (notably +50% dmg reduction, which is nice in HC)
Fury speed: 20 frames (max 1H speed)
Dmg per hit: ~7,800 - 8,300
Dmg per second: ~83,000

Grief + Phoenix
Total Life: ~6,300
Fury speed: 20 frames
Dmg per hit: ~9,500 - 10,000
Dmg per second: ~101,000

Breath of the Dying

Thunder Maul
Total Life: ~4,500
Fury speed: 20 frames
Dmg per hit: ~7,000 - 37,000
Dmg per second: ~200,000 (you'd get about 180,000+ DPS if you do a safer build or less insane gg gear)

Death

Decapitator (Safe Build)
Total Life: ~4,300
Fury speed: 18 frames (max speed)
Dmg per hit: ~15,000 - 44,000
Dmg per second: ~195,000

Death

Decapitator (Max DPS Build)
Total Life: ~1,500 (lol)
Fury speed: 18 frames
Dmg per hit: ~16,000 - 48,000
Dmg per second: ~212,000

Schnorki wrote: 1 year ago

Necrarch wrote: 1 year ago

There is at least one build where BotD is above Grief : Avenger Paladin. As

Vengeance bases its elemental damage on the base damage of the weapon (if I understand correctly, please correct me if I am wrong), it does not take into account the Grief flat damage.

Not sure if there are other cases of BotD being better than Grief though.

Haven't tested that in decades but I believe

Vengeance was indeed one of the very few skills that doesn't work with Grief, as opposed to countless others that do work with it but don't show as such on the char screen (e.g.

Smite,

Berserk, ..).

Alright, I just had to know so I went ahead and used my new SP-testbed to give it a go. Turns out Grief most certainly actually does work with

Vengeance. Doesn't show on the char screen as usual but Grief vs. no Grief is a massive dmg difference with

Vengeance. Takes things from around 20 non-critical hits with a clean phase to not even 3 full non-critical hits with Grief (so factor around 10 which works out math-wise for the +dmg). And yes, I did make sure to test on non-demons so the difference really is from the +dmg and not the demon bonus. Well ok..and the 5-30 fire..but that certainly doesn't account for that kind of a difference.

Conspirator wrote: 1 year ago

For Fury/Mele/ Druid BotD on 2h

Eth CB/Polearm is better than Grief.

+1

Grief shines on 1h builds and requires LL and ML, DEX boost.
BOTD shines in 2h ethereal melee builds, who don't wanna spend points in dexterity.

gunroar wrote: 1 year ago

Janet the Java wrote: 1 year ago

I'm a noob, which builds are these out of interest, beyond the Avenger Paladin mentioned above?

The one I'm most familiar with is PvM Fury Druid. Grief is far from BiS... except in Hardcore and maybe PvP (I don't duel so IDK much about PvP). Just to give some numbers for comparison, if you gear up your druid with Grief, you're probably running Grief PB, Jalal, Fort, String,

Laying of Hands, Highlord, Gorerider, rare ring, Ravenfrost, and either Phoenix or

Stormshield. Your damage from there will depend on how you line up your stats and charms. I'm just going to use some numbers from builds with top end gear.

Grief + SS
Total Life: ~6,100 (notably +50% dmg reduction, which is nice in HC)
Fury speed: 20 frames (max 1H speed)
Dmg per hit: ~7,800 - 8,300
Dmg per second: ~83,000

Grief + Phoenix
Total Life: ~6,300
Fury speed: 20 frames
Dmg per hit: ~9,500 - 10,000
Dmg per second: ~101,000

Breath of the Dying

Thunder Maul
Total Life: ~4,500
Fury speed: 20 frames
Dmg per hit: ~7,000 - 37,000
Dmg per second: ~200,000 (you'd get about 180,000+ DPS if you do a safer build or less insane gg gear)

Death

Decapitator (Safe Build)
Total Life: ~4,300
Fury speed: 18 frames (max speed)
Dmg per hit: ~15,000 - 44,000
Dmg per second: ~195,000

Death

Decapitator (Max DPS Build)
Total Life: ~1,500 (lol)
Fury speed: 18 frames
Dmg per hit: ~16,000 - 48,000
Dmg per second: ~212,000

Just out of curiosity, where did those numbers come from?
Not saying it isn't true but it feels off to me.

Specifically:
A perfect superior BOTD

Eth

Thunder Maul would give you a weapon dmg range of 254 to 1390.
A perfect sup Grief phase on the other hand gives you 435 to 440.

Naturally, the BOTD is significantly higher in that case, both in max and in average dmg so I won't challenge it being far superior overall in terms of dmg output (if you really can get the same speed). But the minimum dmg per hit you have feels way off. If a min of 254 already gives you ~7000, how does 435 only give you ~7800? Scaling the 7000 for min dmg, it should be closer to 12k (with max equally scaling higher). Are your other gear choices in 1h vs 2h making THAT much of a difference? And if so, why? Can't really think of many ways to explain that other than either incorrect numbers (read off char screen that often doesn't include Grief bonus?) or using Fortitude for 2h but not for 1h for some reason.
Or do druids actually have a hidden base multiplier akin to A5 mercs? (Honestly don't know that actually..never spent enough time with melee druids)

In fact smtimes it's hard to understand the damage mechanics of the game same gear with Grief and botd,in theory botd is insane,but in practice Grief kills faster.

Schnorki wrote: 1 year ago

Schnorki wrote: 1 year ago

Necrarch wrote: 1 year ago

There is at least one build where BotD is above Grief : Avenger Paladin. As

Vengeance bases its elemental damage on the base damage of the weapon (if I understand correctly, please correct me if I am wrong), it does not take into account the Grief flat damage.

Not sure if there are other cases of BotD being better than Grief though.

Haven't tested that in decades but I believe

Vengeance was indeed one of the very few skills that doesn't work with Grief, as opposed to countless others that do work with it but don't show as such on the char screen (e.g.

Smite,

Berserk, ..).

Alright, I just had to know so I went ahead and used my new SP-testbed to give it a go. Turns out Grief most certainly actually does work with

Vengeance. Doesn't show on the char screen as usual but Grief vs. no Grief is a massive dmg difference with

Vengeance. Takes things from around 20 non-critical hits with a clean phase to not even 3 full non-critical hits with Grief (so factor around 10 which works out math-wise for the +dmg). And yes, I did make sure to test on non-demons so the difference really is from the +dmg and not the demon bonus. Well ok..and the 5-30 fire..but that certainly doesn't account for that kind of a difference.

Wow, great stuff @Schnorki, thanks a lot for the testing ! Excellent news for my Pally friend as I talked him into making a Grief (and provided the

Lo for it through trading) and looking at older articles I though BotD was actually better. You just saved me a

Zod, a

Vex and an

Eth 6os Zerker

Axe to buy... Which is a lot to me !

Necrarch wrote: 1 year ago

Schnorki wrote: 1 year ago

Schnorki wrote: 1 year ago

Haven't tested that in decades but I believe

Vengeance was indeed one of the very few skills that doesn't work with Grief, as opposed to countless others that do work with it but don't show as such on the char screen (e.g.

Smite,

Berserk, ..).

Alright, I just had to know so I went ahead and used my new SP-testbed to give it a go. Turns out Grief most certainly actually does work with

Vengeance. Doesn't show on the char screen as usual but Grief vs. no Grief is a massive dmg difference with

Vengeance. Takes things from around 20 non-critical hits with a clean phase to not even 3 full non-critical hits with Grief (so factor around 10 which works out math-wise for the +dmg). And yes, I did make sure to test on non-demons so the difference really is from the +dmg and not the demon bonus. Well ok..and the 5-30 fire..but that certainly doesn't account for that kind of a difference.

Wow, great stuff @Schnorki, thanks a lot for the testing ! Excellent news for my Pally friend as I talked him into making a Grief (and provided the

Lo for it through trading) and looking at older articles I though BotD was actually better. You just saved me a

Zod, a

Vex and an

Eth 6os Zerker

Axe to buy... Which is a lot to me !

See..had you said "damn it and I just built a BotD instead!" I would've just given you a

Lo to turn it into a Grief..

Edit: I just had an idea..looking at the description again..need to test one more thing - give me a few minutes - don't build your Grief yet

Schnorki wrote: 1 year ago

Necrarch wrote: 1 year ago

Schnorki wrote: 1 year ago

Alright, I just had to know so I went ahead and used my new SP-testbed to give it a go. Turns out Grief most certainly actually does work with

Vengeance. Doesn't show on the char screen as usual but Grief vs. no Grief is a massive dmg difference with

Vengeance. Takes things from around 20 non-critical hits with a clean phase to not even 3 full non-critical hits with Grief (so factor around 10 which works out math-wise for the +dmg). And yes, I did make sure to test on non-demons so the difference really is from the +dmg and not the demon bonus. Well ok..and the 5-30 fire..but that certainly doesn't account for that kind of a difference.

Wow, great stuff @Schnorki, thanks a lot for the testing ! Excellent news for my Pally friend as I talked him into making a Grief (and provided the

Lo for it through trading) and looking at older articles I though BotD was actually better. You just saved me a

Zod, a

Vex and an

Eth 6os Zerker

Axe to buy... Which is a lot to me !

See..had you said "damn it and I just built a BotD instead!" I would've just given you a

Lo to turn it into a Grief..

I still need a

Zod for the BotD of the Pally friend's A1 merc, but that should be makeable thanks to my lucky

Belt (see lucky stuff post if you did not see that yet). Or a CoH for him as well.
Let's equip him, after all I owe him my lucky torch (I seem to be VERY lucky these days).

Necrarch wrote: 1 year ago

Schnorki wrote: 1 year ago

Necrarch wrote: 1 year ago

Wow, great stuff @Schnorki, thanks a lot for the testing ! Excellent news for my Pally friend as I talked him into making a Grief (and provided the

Lo for it through trading) and looking at older articles I though BotD was actually better. You just saved me a

Zod, a

Vex and an

Eth 6os Zerker

Axe to buy... Which is a lot to me !

See..had you said "damn it and I just built a BotD instead!" I would've just given you a

Lo to turn it into a Grief..

I still need a

Zod for the BotD of the Pally friend's A1 merc, but that should be makeable thanks to my lucky

Belt (see lucky stuff post if you did not see that yet). Or a CoH for him as well.
Let's equip him, after all I owe him my lucky torch (I seem to be VERY lucky these days).

Alright, did another round of testing because I figured wording might be everything...spoiler alert: it is!

Eth. BOTD zerker

Axe vs. Grief. So moving from "does Grief's +dmg do anything?" to "what option actually does more dmg in the end?".

After enough kills to get a solid average (with neither demons nor undead to avoid those modifiers affecting it):
-

Eth BOTD base weapon dmg is on average ~22% lower than Grief. So you'd expect it to perform equally worse. However, it actually performs better. A massive ~50% better in fact.

So my new theory is this:
As per the wording,

Vengeance doesn't turn your damage into elemental damage but it "adds" elemental damage. Meaning you do both, physical base damage and then elemental dmg on top.
Now, because of that...
- The physical part of your attack includes Grief's +dmg which is modified by your gear (fort and such) as always. This is why Grief vs. no Grief is such a massive difference.
- The elemental part is then added on top of that same damage. This damage is based directly off of your weapon damage, NOT counting other ED effects like fort and such. This isn't actually news but was long known and confirmed multiple times over by various people.
- The elemental part does not consider Grief's +dmg for that calculation. This would be why BOTD still performs better in the end. The phys part of the attack does less but the elemental part does (significantly) more, resulting in an overall win for BOTD. The more you shift to the elemental side (e.g. high

Conviction), the more BOTD would pull ahead.

So basically, Grief kinda works..but not fully..and BOTD remains the better choice in terms of raw dmg.


Edit:
Just noticed..AB actually says exactly that..figures..didn't need to do all that testing, just had to not be too lazy to check there..