People can complain until the Halberd-bearing cows come home about bots and the whacked-out economy... but the obvious fact is there's very little financial incentive for Blizzard to come down hard on botters due to there not being any subscription fee or DLC or official P2W crap... so selling botters multiple accounts (as well as possibly having their hand in the FG business; I make no claims either way but it's a plausible idea) is their only way to keep extracting money from their product.
Which they're gonna do. Because that's what corporations do.
HOWEVER, there's a really obvious solution staring us in the face: Uber Diablo. If y'all can recall, this was invented to permanently remove Wealth from the economy back in the days when Wealth was often measured in SoJs.
We just need more of that. We need cube recipes useful to high-end players that require (and destroy) unique items, high runes, etc.
These recipes don't have to be super OP in terms of introducing new meta-destroying OP equipment; they just have to be useful enough that the high end botters will be incentivized to burn through their inventory in order to, oh I don't know, reroll to get perfect Death Webs (just for example), instead of flooding the market.
The crazy high Wealth players will still exist, but their efforts don't trickle down into the rest of the experience as much because they're incentivized to destroy most of their huge hauls instead of trading (and which inevitably results in crazy overpaying.)
I don't know what the magic formula would be but just as a thought experiment consider starting with something as simple as any 2 uniques --> 1 Ral rune (or 2 flawless amethysts or something.) Then perhaps you could reroll any unique for 4 Jahs, and any set item for 4 Bers. I'm not saying it has to be exactly that, but stuff along those lines.
It wouldn't make things perfect, but it would make things a hell of a lot better.
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People can complain until the Halberd-bearing cows come home about bots and the whacked-out economy... but the obvious fact is there's very little financial incentive for Blizzard to come down hard on botters due to there not being any subscription fee or DLC or official P2W crap... so selling botters multiple accounts (as well as possibly having their hand in the FG business; I make no claims either way but it's a plausible idea) is their only way to keep extracting money from their product.
Which they're gonna do. Because that's what corporations do.
HOWEVER, there's a really obvious solution staring us in the face: Uber Diablo. If y'all can recall, this was invented to permanently remove Wealth from the economy back in the days when Wealth was often measured in SoJs.
We just need more of that. We need cube recipes useful to high-end players that require (and destroy) unique items, high runes, etc.
These recipes don't have to be super OP in terms of introducing new meta-destroying OP equipment; they just have to be useful enough that the high end botters will be incentivized to burn through their inventory in order to, oh I don't know, reroll to get perfect Death Webs (just for example), instead of flooding the market.
The crazy high Wealth players will still exist, but their efforts don't trickle down into the rest of the experience as much because they're incentivized to destroy most of their huge hauls instead of trading (and which inevitably results in crazy overpaying.)
I don't know what the magic formula would be but just as a thought experiment consider starting with something as simple as any 2 uniques --> 1 Ral rune (or 2 flawless amethysts or something.) Then perhaps you could reroll any unique for 4 Jahs, and any set item for 4 Bers. I'm not saying it has to be exactly that, but stuff along those lines.
It wouldn't make things perfect, but it would make things a hell of a lot better.
Which they're gonna do. Because that's what corporations do.
HOWEVER, there's a really obvious solution staring us in the face: Uber Diablo. If y'all can recall, this was invented to permanently remove Wealth from the economy back in the days when Wealth was often measured in SoJs.
We just need more of that. We need cube recipes useful to high-end players that require (and destroy) unique items, high runes, etc.
These recipes don't have to be super OP in terms of introducing new meta-destroying OP equipment; they just have to be useful enough that the high end botters will be incentivized to burn through their inventory in order to, oh I don't know, reroll to get perfect Death Webs (just for example), instead of flooding the market.
The crazy high Wealth players will still exist, but their efforts don't trickle down into the rest of the experience as much because they're incentivized to destroy most of their huge hauls instead of trading (and which inevitably results in crazy overpaying.)
I don't know what the magic formula would be but just as a thought experiment consider starting with something as simple as any 2 uniques --> 1 Ral rune (or 2 flawless amethysts or something.) Then perhaps you could reroll any unique for 4 Jahs, and any set item for 4 Bers. I'm not saying it has to be exactly that, but stuff along those lines.
It wouldn't make things perfect, but it would make things a hell of a lot better.
Can be used to make Runewords:
This is not a proper solution, but a band-aid. It'd only incentivize to cheat MORE in order to afford these new expensive recipes. SoJ mafia in legacy D2 existed for a reason.
And if those new recipes were like Last Wish (very expensive and powerful), they'd increase the gap between legit and P2W players. Unfortunately, we don't have cosmetics in D2 (besides full set auras; and even if we had, instanced gameplay would limit their usage).
Wealth sinks are needed, but in addition to, not instead of a solution to cheating problem.
And if those new recipes were like Last Wish (very expensive and powerful), they'd increase the gap between legit and P2W players. Unfortunately, we don't have cosmetics in D2 (besides full set auras; and even if we had, instanced gameplay would limit their usage).
Wealth sinks are needed, but in addition to, not instead of a solution to cheating problem.
I'll give one of my favorite quotes here :
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
Any parallel with real life issues, especially with politics, would be purely coincidental, of course.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
Any parallel with real life issues, especially with politics, would be purely coincidental, of course.
Main: Necromancer / Second: Assassin / Third: Amazon / Check my stash and my crafts including my caster belts
, and my many cheap Annihilus / Accepting payment in L or NL currency though I only play NL
In World of Warcraft, people say that Blizzard has no incentive to ban botters because they pay for their subscription. And if they ban them slowly enough so they can still make profit, they buy new accounts and then pay subscriptions.but the obvious fact is there's very little financial incentive for Blizzard to come down hard on botters due to there not being any subscription fee or DLC or official P2W crap
On workdays I am generally available for trade from 19:00 CET to 23:00 CET. Weekends variable.
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DON'T ADD ME ON BNET WITHOUT POSTING HERE! I WILL NOT ACCEPT FRIEND REQUESTS FROM STRANGERS.
On the other hand, add me after you bid
That's why I specifically said there wouldn't be new powerful items being introduced. The most obvious recipes that I can think of would be geared around rerolling and crafting. That way they get their addictive fix for rolling perfect uniques, rares with just 1x more sockets, one more perfect bear claw charm, etc. but it generally doesn't give them a massive advantage over regular players.
Yes, it will increase their power level vs. regular players but only in fairly small and perfectionist ways, not in gamebreaking ways. Yes there might be a couple new niche builds that are only possible with crazy expensive rerolls, sure the botters will dominate PvP.... but that's already what we have now!
The 'disadvantages' of the solution are already huge problems, while the upside is significant.
I don't disagree that this is a band aid, not a perfect fix, but just ask yourself if a perfect fix is at ALL realistic to expect out of Blizzard, given there's D3, D4, Diablo Immortal, WOW, and a dozen other newer shiny probably more profitable products on their shelves?
I'd love for them to make it a bot-free economy but it's been almost a quarter century, my man. I'm just trying to be realistic. This is a band-aid, yes, but it almost assuredly would help to a significant degree.
I've always liked that quote as well, though I think it can be used a bit dismissively. The fact that there are nuances to navigate doesn't make an idea wrong.Necrarch wrote: 10 months ago I'll give one of my favorite quotes here :
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
My 50,000 foot thesis here is that these ultra-rich botters are spending their time and resources on PERFECTIONISM. They're willing to throw an obscene amount of Wealth for fairly small equipment improvements that, for mere mortal players, wouldn't be worth it. It is the disparity (in Wealth and goals) between these two groups that drive a lot of the problems, and therefore if you take measures that would naturally tend to separate the two economies--by incentivizing botters to "burn" their Wealth instead of trading it--it would improve matters a lot. (Albeit it couldn't ever be 100% effective and the warping effect of FG would still be around, etc.)
There are subtleties, there are nuances, there are unexpected consequences. There always are in real life. But the nuances could be surmountable by adjusting the recipes and drop rates. At the end of the day I'm confident it would still be an huge improvement, and it's a realistic one to suggest because it's one that Blizzard could implement totally independently of their policies regarding botters. I mean, I'd love to have zero botters too but if 20 years have passed and Blizzard still can't take decisive steps against the botters (for reasons, be they good or bad), then, I mean... I just think it's time to stop being so utopian and start thinking about trying to ask Blizzard to do something else.
Compared to d2 classic where the game was basically runned by programs, I feel like d2r did a really good job at banning bots. Games selection lobby feel more natural, if it were not for those advertising d2bits dot my ass. It is clear there could be a ban of these accounts via IP. The technical efficient solutions exist, but not sure it is part of the plan.
THe thing is, there is a team continuously working on our favorite game, polishing it and finally making change to lifelong problems in the gameplay. These people need to be paid. Considering Blizzard delicate financial state, they might consider the bot ecosystem as a self sustaining "free of Charge game as a service" thing ?
THe thing is, there is a team continuously working on our favorite game, polishing it and finally making change to lifelong problems in the gameplay. These people need to be paid. Considering Blizzard delicate financial state, they might consider the bot ecosystem as a self sustaining "free of Charge game as a service" thing ?
I don't worry about botters/cheaters when playing D2R, much the same way I don't worry about heroin, cocaine or fentanyl.
The tendency to take the path of least resistance or the easy way out is ingrained in human nature and the human condition. It is part of our factory preset, as it were.
Complaining about Blizzard or the botters makes as much sense as the US blaming Colombia for their cocaine problem.
If there is a need for cheaters(gimme my cheap stuff) there will always be cheating and a market to provide for it.
The tendency to take the path of least resistance or the easy way out is ingrained in human nature and the human condition. It is part of our factory preset, as it were.
Complaining about Blizzard or the botters makes as much sense as the US blaming Colombia for their cocaine problem.
If there is a need for cheaters(gimme my cheap stuff) there will always be cheating and a market to provide for it.
True. And did not mean to be dismissive.
Actually I'd like recipes, but just for cosmetic stuff.
Re-roll the skins of your charms, rings, amulet could be one.
Use Standard of Heroes to "taint" an item in another color (already proposed that one).
Etc.
Cool for perfectionism, no impact on gameplay.
Actually I'd like recipes, but just for cosmetic stuff.
Re-roll the skins of your charms, rings, amulet could be one.
Use Standard of Heroes to "taint" an item in another color (already proposed that one).
Etc.
Cool for perfectionism, no impact on gameplay.
Main: Necromancer / Second: Assassin / Third: Amazon / Check my stash and my crafts including my caster belts
, and my many cheap Annihilus / Accepting payment in L or NL currency though I only play NL
how do bots work online when maps reroll? except for trav...
Trav, Pindle, Shenk, Eldritch, Chaos... there are many places that seem "bottable", unfortunately. If D2 devs could only do a little randomization just on these (simple map rotation ?) could fix the thing perhaps ? Dunno the bots way to work enough to say.
Main: Necromancer / Second: Assassin / Third: Amazon / Check my stash and my crafts including my caster belts
, and my many cheap Annihilus / Accepting payment in L or NL currency though I only play NLNo offense, because I'm sure these threads come up all of the time, but I feel like this is carbon copy reply and the people who liked it are just doing so because they're sick of all those whining sorts of threads.lscottl wrote: 10 months ago I don't worry about botters/cheaters when playing D2R, much the same way I don't worry about heroin, cocaine or fentanyl.
The tendency to take the path of least resistance or the easy way out is ingrained in human nature and the human condition. It is part of our factory preset, as it were.
Complaining about Blizzard or the botters makes as much sense as the US blaming Colombia for their cocaine problem.
If there is a need for cheaters(gimme my cheap stuff) there will always be cheating and a market to provide for it.
I don't even care about the "cheating" argument all that much. I only care insofar as botters affect how I play the game. And they do, because they drastically affect the economy. Trading is really fun and interesting and I wouldn't be still playing D2R if trading didn't exist, but it would be better if it weren't as messed up as it is right now.
(I acknowledge that there is a segment of the population who does SSF and those who are content to do 10,000 Countess runs in a row. I mean, to each his own, but I'm interested in doing some trading.)
But I wasn't demonizing the botters, nor was I blaming Blizzard. In fact in my OP I went out of my way to say that this is just what corporations do. Right or wrong doesn't really matter. I wish people would, in general (in politics and in "real life") stop treating corporations as sources of, reflections of, or arbitrators of ethics or morals. They're just there to make money.
So no, I'm not looking to demonize Blizzard or botters. I wish things could be different but they aren't and it strikes me as unrealistic to complain (after 20+ years!) about these same issues. The solution I'm proposing doesn't demonize or penalize anyone. The botters can do their thing and the non-botters can do our thing, with at least somewhat less economic Chaos for the non-botting crowd. Everybody wins.
I get that these threads must get tiresome but you've missed the point entirely. This is in many ways the opposite of the typical bot-b*tching post. As per your metaphor, you might call this the drug policy equivalent of "harm reduction".
Maps actually have presets and patterns. Memorizing them helps tremendously for mf. One good example is durance of hate lvl2 which can be huge. Need to go straight in the first door then left. We just code that for the bot, as long as they have Enigma for tp they will find the next lvl. I mean, people have been able to code this in 2000, so...
I typed that on the fly, right then and there. The internet is forever. Start your search. Anyone starting a sentence with 'no offense' is clearly about to offend.Vigil_Ante wrote: 10 months agoNo offense, because I'm sure these threads come up all of the time, but I feel like this is carbon copy reply and the people who liked it are just doing so because they're sick of all those whining sorts of threads.lscottl wrote: 10 months ago I don't worry about botters/cheaters when playing D2R, much the same way I don't worry about heroin, cocaine or fentanyl.
The tendency to take the path of least resistance or the easy way out is ingrained in human nature and the human condition. It is part of our factory preset, as it were.
Complaining about Blizzard or the botters makes as much sense as the US blaming Colombia for their cocaine problem.
If there is a need for cheaters(gimme my cheap stuff) there will always be cheating and a market to provide for it.
I don't even care about the "cheating" argument all that much. I only care insofar as botters affect how I play the game. And they do, because they drastically affect the economy. Trading is really fun and interesting and I wouldn't be still playing D2R if trading didn't exist, but it would be better if it weren't as messed up as it is right now.
(I acknowledge that there is a segment of the population who does SSF and those who are content to do 10,000 Countess runs in a row. I mean, to each his own, but I'm interested in doing some trading.)
But I wasn't demonizing the botters, nor was I blaming Blizzard. In fact in my OP I went out of my way to say that this is just what corporations do. Right or wrong doesn't really matter. I wish people would, in general (in politics and in "real life") stop treating corporations as sources of, reflections of, or arbitrators of ethics or morals. They're just there to make money.
So no, I'm not looking to demonize Blizzard or botters. I wish things could be different but they aren't and it strikes me as unrealistic to complain (after 20+ years!) about these same issues. The solution I'm proposing doesn't demonize or penalize anyone. The botters can do their thing and the non-botters can do our thing, with at least somewhat less economic Chaos for the non-botting crowd. Everybody wins.
I get that these threads must get tiresome but you've missed the point entirely. This is in many ways the opposite of the typical bot-b*tching post. As per your metaphor, you might call this the drug policy equivalent of "harm reduction".
Secondly, trading has been ruined by the cheaters(who knew?) and my premise is on point, there is nothing to be done about it(Chaos will continue)until people stop buying their loot from the botters and put in the time instead.
Lastly, Blizzard will stand fast and allow this immutable Chaos to reign into perpetuity.
It seems to me items for cash amounts to "low hanging fruit" that Blizzard is unlikely to step aside and ignore. How do we know that game item sellers aren't being supplied by Blizzard or members of their staff?
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That has always been my contention. There is some kind of direct and indirect cooperation between Blizzard and the scammers.mhlg wrote: 10 months ago It seems to me items for cash amounts to "low hanging fruit" that Blizzard is unlikely to step aside and ignore. How do we know that game item sellers aren't being supplied by Blizzard or members of their staff?
I suspect a lot of people have carried that thought at the forefront or at the back of their minds. I also think the hidden purpose of Ladder is to put participating players back at the starting line with nothing, which in turn will lead some to buy their way to the top.lscottl wrote: 10 months agoThat has always been my contention. There is some kind of direct and indirect cooperation between Blizzard and the scammers.mhlg wrote: 10 months ago It seems to me items for cash amounts to "low hanging fruit" that Blizzard is unlikely to step aside and ignore. How do we know that game item sellers aren't being supplied by Blizzard or members of their staff?
Please post offer in item trade before adding me on Bnet
It is not a coincidence that at the moment of mass bot bans, Blizzard put D2R 67% off in the digital store.mhlg wrote: 10 months agoI suspect a lot of people have carried that thought at the forefront or at the back of their minds. I also think the hidden purpose of Ladder is to put participating players back at the starting line with nothing, which in turn will lead some to buy their way to the top.lscottl wrote: 10 months agoThat has always been my contention. There is some kind of direct and indirect cooperation between Blizzard and the scammers.mhlg wrote: 10 months ago It seems to me items for cash amounts to "low hanging fruit" that Blizzard is unlikely to step aside and ignore. How do we know that game item sellers aren't being supplied by Blizzard or members of their staff?
I have no doubt that Blizzard makes money off of users with multiple accounts, but it would be nothing compared to the mass selling of items to vendors. It wouldn't require anything of them and wouldn't place any additional stress on their servers. There have been rumors of Blizzard employees duping items for sale but I find it hard to believe that Blizzards execs wouldn't notice. Follow the money and who's most likely to chase it.lscottl wrote: 10 months agoIt is not coincidence that at the moment of mass bot bans, Blizzard put D2R 67% off in the digital store.mhlg wrote: 10 months agoI suspect a lot of people have carried that thought at the forefront or at the back of their minds. I also think the hidden purpose of Ladder is to put participating players back at the starting line with nothing, which in turn will lead some to buy their way to the top.lscottl wrote: 10 months ago
That has always been my contention. There is some kind of direct and indirect cooperation between Blizzard and the scammers.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d2r/t ... tes/110376
Please post offer in item trade before adding me on Bnet
It goes on sale three or four times a year.lscottl wrote: 10 months ago It is not coincidence that at the moment of mass bot bans, Blizzard put D2R 67% off in the digital store.
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