Javazon with Sunder Charms: Infinity or Enigma

Just wondering, with Sunder charms reducing immunity issues, does an Amazon prioritise Enigma or Infinity? As I understand the mechanic, Infinity applies @ 20% against sundered monsters and 100% against non-immunes.
I have a

Jah and

Ber which i'm sure I can make into 2

Ber, but cannot make my mind up.
Advice much appreciated.

Enigma

I had the same dilemma before sunder charm times. I went with Infinity because it is the core item of my build, while Enigma is a “very nice to have”.


With v2.5, just remember while Infinity only works at 20% with the sundered enemies, the regular, non-lightning immunes still get the full impact of the

Conviction aura.

In open areas, you could use the likes of

The Cat's Eye and

Circlet of speed with sockets and + skills that has FR/W and probably match the mobility of

Teleport anyways, since Amazon's

Teleport is slowwww.

Hence i would still recommend Infinity over Enigma first unless you have built multiple other characters that would benefit from sharing the Enigma.

Aside from

Conviction still being useful, Enigma will leave you wide open resistance wise.
I used Enigma on my Java and constantly got sniped by ranged enemies, like souls. You can of course avoid areas with souls but i don't like being told where not to go.
I ended up using Chains of Honor. Huge quality of life improvement and wiht cat's eye and titans you should habe enough FRW to at least somewhat make up for not having

Teleport.

People seem to forget that Enigma has 45% FRW. You are not getting that much speed from anywhere else.

Don't like porting to groups? Don't use the

Teleport (seriously, you don't need to just because you have it on demand).
Need to relocate Emilio to you to apply

Conviction? Use

Teleport (seriously, if he has Infinity you'll be glad you have that available).
Stuck in a dead-end corridor? Use

Teleport (seriously, running around walls back and forth sucks).

You are trading resists for quality of life. Amazon can

Dodge most anything, just use small charms to bump your light res to 75% and ignore the rest.
As for OP's question, I'd totally go with Infinity first. You don't even need the sunder, if you have an Infinity, so you have +70% LR.

In my gameplay experience, Infinity is much more useful, when you use it with Enigma together. As Queegon wrote, you need to relocate Emilio - and you have to do that very often, because most of the time, he is far behind you and then,

Conviction aura doesn't work and monsters are still lightning immune. And that is really frustrating and reduces your killspeed enormously.

So, in my opinion, you need both! Well, it's easy to say that for me, because I own both.

Another thought I have is, that I had a lot of mana problems with my Amazon at the beginning, after I switched to Infinity. Before, my merc had an Insight. So I had to look for some other Items, to reduce the mana problems, e.g. items with +x mana after kill. Keep that in mind.

So, my recommendation is:

1st: Enigma, merc with Insight
2nd: look for +mana items
3rd: farm farm farm to get your Infinity

Enigma 10 times out of 10. Currently playing a lvl 95 furyzon. Got Enigma first chance I got. Faceted

Monarch +

Thunderstroke + faceted

Griffon's Eye are a sufficient substitute for Infinity while you're working your way towards it.

ChillenOz wrote: 2 years ago

Just wondering, with Sunder charms reducing immunity issues, does an Amazon prioritise Enigma or Infinity? As I understand the mechanic, Infinity applies @ 20% against sundered monsters and 100% against non-immunes.
I have a

Jah and

Ber which i'm sure I can make into 2

Ber, but cannot make my mind up.
Advice much appreciated.

Moved my Infinity question to its own topic. Because I wanted it to be easier to see and help stop the confusion. But, Schnorki's reply below answered it perfectly while I was writing the new topic.

--

While I love my Infinity on my Zon.. I feel like Enigma may be the better choice to build first. It adds a lot of utility. (Lot's of utility for other builds too.)
The comments about needing to reposition your merc are extremely valid. You're likely already experiencing having your merc fall WAY behind you.
During these times, your two

Ber are doing effectively nothing. Even when he's moderately close, yet still behind you, you may not be getting very good debuff coverage at all.

With Enigma you probably aren't going to have a wonderful feeling of traveling with it due to cast rate/mana. But, for repositioning in combat, it's wonderful.

Infinity's aura seem to apply in a time determined tick rate, so sometimes even when you

Teleport in you may need a fraction of a second for it to apply, other times it seems to be nearly instant. This could also be exaggerate even more with your Merc running up behind you? (Or maybe it's the

Teleport and latency, I'm not sure. Maybe I'm crazy!)

Either way, they both hold good trade value when built in desirable bases. I personally, tend to avoid dusk shrouds for anything on my Zons.. Purely for aesthetics purposes Like a

Mage Plate or archon, whatever you like the looks of. You're also getting nice STR boost off it, so you can use that to equip your shield easier freeing some stat points. (It would seem that 1000+ defense enigmas are more visually appealing in stat list, thus hold a better trade value. So maybe keep that in mind. A basement rolled Enigma would need a 250 defense base to hit 1000)

Maybe also consider taking into account the immediate noticeable effects on you;

Enigma = Str + Life + FRW + DR + Damage to Mana + Skills + Life per kill +

Teleport , also generally cheaper good bases. Easier to pass/avoid immunes or danger.

Infinity = Lvl12

Conviction which translates to less mobs passed on runs, smoother runs. A generally more pleasing experience deleting the screen =) Just generally smoother game play when things are working right.

Though, this is just my opinion through using them over the years. I love both, and they are amazing together, but I would generally only think of building Infinity first for something like a trapper.

GooberGirl wrote: 2 years ago

Can anyone clarify that comment about Infinity applying reduced effect BECAUSE of the sundered?

Infinity's behavior is exactly the same it has always been, regardless of whether or not you have a sunder equipped.

If a monster is not immune,

Conviction works at full effect (with or without a sunder).
If a monster started out immune,

Conviction works at 1/5th effect (with or without a sunder).

The only thing the "change" did was reverse a buff that only ever existed on the PTR, before sunders were ever available on live, that would have made

Conviction work at full effect on previously immune mobs IF you broke the immunity with a sunder instead of with

Conviction itself.

The same is true for lower res.

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

GooberGirl wrote: 2 years ago

Can anyone clarify that comment about Infinity applying reduced effect BECAUSE of the sundered?

Infinity's behavior is exactly the same it has always been, regardless of whether or not you have a sunder equipped.

If a monster is not immune,

Conviction works at full effect (with or without a sunder).
If a monster started out immune,

Conviction works at 1/5th effect (with or without a sunder).

The only thing the "change" did was reverse a buff that only ever existed on the PTR, before sunders were ever available on live, that would have made

Conviction work at full effect on previously immune mobs IF you broke the immunity with a sunder instead of with

Conviction itself.

The same is true for lower res.

This is exactly what I thought and unfortunately doesn't seem to be getting understood.

Thanks.

I moved my question and edited my post before noticing you responded here though. Could you maybe post your answer there for visibility sake?

You can use single player saved files to try both.

I do believe you should go for Enigma first ( more so if you play other characters that benefit from it).
On a javazon with Infinity and no Enigma, you will very often get frustrated that you used 2

Ber and monsters are still immune because Emilio decided to talk to a wall a few screens back.

Yes, the javazon has horrible fcr frames - it doesn't mean that if you have Enigma, you should spam

Teleport. But it does wonders to reposition Emilio(and his

Conviction)

You should consider how you play the game. What are your endgame goals for your javazon? Do you mostly play solo or in parties? Is your javazon your primary character? Do you farm consumables and/or magic find with her? Do you already have

Griffon's Eye? What's your primary weapon? Do you know how to use

Slow Missiles and

Decoy?

Your answers to each of the above questions will favor one runeword over the other.

Last season, I made Infinity before Enigma. In fact, I didn't make Enigma until level 96. I believe it worked out, but mainly because Terror Zones didn't get patched in until I was level 97.

The best way I can describe the experience of both runewords is that Infinity allowed me to kill (almost) everything. Enigma allowed me to access everything faster. Together, they create the optimal playing experience. Which would you rather acquire first?

When leveling javazon i made Infinity first in

Mancatcher and respected her to spearzon with

Valkyrie Wing and COH .

That closed Emilio positioning issue because he almost not affected my gameplay. I left Insight on him and gave him a role of extra mana source and healer.

Self wearing Infinity also grants 30% MF and 35% FRW which is similar to 45% FRW Enigma offers.

Valkyrie Wing adds extra 20% FRW.

Snakecharmed wrote: 2 years ago

You should consider how you play the game. What are your endgame goals for your javazon? Do you mostly play solo or in parties? Is your javazon your primary character? Do you farm consumables and/or magic find with her? Do you already have

Griffon's Eye? What's your primary weapon? Do you know how to use

Slow Missiles and

Decoy?

Your answers to each of the above questions will favor one runeword over the other.

Last season, I made Infinity before Enigma. In fact, I didn't make Enigma until level 96. I believe it worked out, but mainly because Terror Zones didn't get patched in until I was level 97.

The best way I can describe the experience of both runewords is that Infinity allowed me to kill (almost) everything. Enigma allowed me to access everything faster. Together, they create the optimal playing experience. Which would you rather acquire first?

This is spot on and exactly what i did.

Most of the posts here are not wrong, they are just forgetting some of us have budget constraints.

I found 2 bers rather quickly, but did not find another

Ber/

Jah until 3 months later. Of course i would have made both Infinity and Enigma if i could but, i had to prioritise Infinity is the foundation of Javazon build while Enigma is a huge bonus to QOS.

There are a lot of areas/immunes you have to avoid without Infinity, i am not sure if the game is fun for you that way.

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

GooberGirl wrote: 2 years ago

Can anyone clarify that comment about Infinity applying reduced effect BECAUSE of the sundered?

Infinity's behavior is exactly the same it has always been, regardless of whether or not you have a sunder equipped.

If a monster is not immune,

Conviction works at full effect (with or without a sunder).
If a monster started out immune,

Conviction works at 1/5th effect (with or without a sunder).

The only thing the "change" did was reverse a buff that only ever existed on the PTR, before sunders were ever available on live, that would have made

Conviction work at full effect on previously immune mobs IF you broke the immunity with a sunder instead of with

Conviction itself.

The same is true for lower res.

Just to confirm, if a monster was immune and its immunity was removed as a result of

Griffon's Eye, does

Conviction still apply at 20%. I'm trying to understand if i should just remove my sunder charm or if my thinking is completely off base

ChillenOz wrote: 2 years ago

Schnorki wrote: 2 years ago

GooberGirl wrote: 2 years ago

Can anyone clarify that comment about Infinity applying reduced effect BECAUSE of the sundered?

Infinity's behavior is exactly the same it has always been, regardless of whether or not you have a sunder equipped.

If a monster is not immune,

Conviction works at full effect (with or without a sunder).
If a monster started out immune,

Conviction works at 1/5th effect (with or without a sunder).

The only thing the "change" did was reverse a buff that only ever existed on the PTR, before sunders were ever available on live, that would have made

Conviction work at full effect on previously immune mobs IF you broke the immunity with a sunder instead of with

Conviction itself.

The same is true for lower res.

Just to confirm, if a monster was immune and its immunity was removed as a result of

Griffon's Eye, does

Conviction still apply at 20%. I'm trying to understand if i should just remove my sunder charm or if my thinking is completely off base

That scenario isn't possible. Griffon's (or any other -%res on your gear) cannot break immunities. Lightning immunity can only be broken with a sunder,

Conviction or

Lower Resist (the curse, not the stat on gear). No matter which one or more of these 3 you use to break it,

Conviction and lower res will always only work at 1/5th strength against any such mob that started out immune.

If you bring both, Griffon's and

Conviction (and nothing else for the sake of the example) then

Conviction hits your immune target first (at 1/5th strength) and then either isn't enough to break the immunity in which case Griffon's doesn't do anything. Or the

Conviction is sufficient, breaks the immunity and then Griffon's applies (always at full effect) to further reduce the remaining resistance.